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Author Topic: Landholds: dividing warrior holds  (Read 1114 times)

solmanian

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Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« on: 12 July 2014, 15:43:49 »
This one took me a while to wrap my mind around. It had to do with dividing between rulership and ownership. You had barons ruling over entire planets,and planets were supposed to be the property of dukes, who in turn were suppose to be in charge of several star systems. Than I realized that just because someone rule over a planet, doesn't mean he owns 100% of the planet; often far from it...

Anyways, A duke can divide the territory of his planets as landholds of marquises and counts. Their territory can in turn be divided between barons etc. who are answerable to them.

But than you have "warrior holds" like Outreach and Menke. I reckon that you can't divide a warrior hold between additional warriors; i.e. if Hanse gave Wolf's Dragoons Outreach as a warriors hold, he probably can't give a continent on outreach as a warrior hold for the illician lancers, even if they would answerable to the dragoons. Did I get it right?

What about dividing a warrior hold territory between Nobles (who will pay taxes to the warrior)? I think that can actually happen, especially if the nobles owned the land before the mercs came around; a warrior hold agreement can be a temporary one (even if temporary means decades), so no point dislodging the nobles from their birthrights.

The example I'm looking at is the big MAC. Their CO became the ruler of Menke and Mitchell, but many of the senior staff were also given titles. I'm assuming those officers received some land grants on those two planets.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Maelwys

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #1 on: 12 July 2014, 18:12:19 »
It probably depends on how they were given the plants. When Hanse gave Outreach away, he pretty much ceded control the the Dragoons in its entirety, and thus his claim over the planet for the most part (which is why Dragoons were independent and not Davion Mercs).

Also, if you've given something to someone else (Such as an entire planet) then you can't give it away to anyone else.

Well.

Okay, you CAN, and nobles have done it historically, but its not nice and leads to conflicts :)

Think of it like a pie. You give someone the entire pie. You can't go back three days later, take a piece of the pie and give it to someone else without the first person objecting.

solmanian

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #2 on: 12 July 2014, 19:01:50 »
What about preexisting land owners (noble or otherwise) living on the planet long before it was given? The mercs may have been given rulership of the planet, but in many realms that doesn't mean that all private property becomes theirs...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Maelwys

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #3 on: 13 July 2014, 17:27:03 »
Going to depend on the conditions really. The private property isn't going to transfer over. Its not like you get everything on the plant. You get rulership over it.

The nobles that are already in place are told "There's a new boss inserted into chain of command. Instead of reporting to Noble A and him reporting to the head of the realm, you now report to Noble A, and he reports to new landholder and the landholder reports to the head of the realm."

solmanian

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #4 on: 13 July 2014, 17:49:22 »
Wait, so does the Baron, duke, or whatever, that was ruling over the planet continues to do so, and just reports to the mercs? I can see the civilian bureaucrats handling the transfer without a hitch, but a noble that used to be the supreme authority on the planet (and in some realms that means that means he can do literally what ever the hell he wants, to whoever he wants, as long as he keeps paying the taxes on time) huffing and puffing over having to report to a lowborn merc...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Maelwys

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #5 on: 13 July 2014, 18:01:27 »
Its going to depend. Most likely if the planet is getting a new landholder and that position had one already, then something major has happened.  Either the former holder has done something to lose the position, or he's been promoted, or he's died or something.

Again, its not just polite to give something to someone else that somebody else has.

solmanian

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #6 on: 13 July 2014, 18:15:13 »
I was under the impression that using warrior holds is more often than not, meant as a way to beef up a strategic planet defenses; i.e. a military consideration, not a political one. So there is an argument for letting a successful/reliable planetary governor keep his job.

Even from the mercs POV, it's meant as a way to give them a home, not saddle them with administration duties and politics. And those things are often well outside their sphere of expertise.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Archangel

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #7 on: 16 July 2014, 03:53:55 »
Well using the case of the Big Mac, after Marcus Baxter was named Mandrinn of Menke and Mitchell in 3060, he immediately turned over governing responsibilities to Lord Thomas McCarron, uncle of Archibald McCarron (Marcus' predecessor), to rule the planets as his regent.  Most governing responsibilities are not handled by the planetary rulers but rather by subordinates appointed by the ruler whether a subordinate noble or simply an administrator in service to the noble.  The Archon is the planetary ruler of Tharkad (and probably a couple other planets as well), but he, or she, is not likely to have the time to properly oversee the planet.  Many nobles spend a lot of time away from their home planet, whether visiting other holdings, going to the regional or national capital on official (or private) business or simply to get away from their planet which could be unpleasant at best (desert planet, toxic atmosphere, disease, etc).
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #8 on: 23 July 2014, 22:41:58 »
  The Feudal System depends on dedicated layers of hierarchical support. I'm going to be very general here, as details may differ from one house to another but in general, they operate under similar lines.

  When a noble is appointed to a position, his primary duty is administrative -He directs subordinates and subjects, collects taxes, delivers payment to superiors, takes a small portion for himself, and the Feudal machine keeps running. A noble may own a large portion of his assigned holding, or none of it, acting solely as an administrator.
  A noble awarded control over a planet might be given sizable portions of land for personal use -From that land he derives the bulk of his personal income and pays his taxes. He also administers a layer of subordinate nobles, who control cities, continents, corporations, islands, etc., who in turn administer lesser nobles who control towns, counties, baronies, companies, etc., and they in turn administer petty nobles, who control villages, communities, farms, etc.

  As in the Medieval era, a noble's primary duty was tax collector -The collections were needed to supply armies and support the lavish lifestyle of the ruling class.
  In return as acting as tax collector, a noble's superior pledges to do what is in his power to protect his subordinates.
  Another part of a noble's obligation is to maintain a military force for local defense and be able to raise a force in case a superior noble calls for it. 

  I'm currently running a campaign where one noble has been appointing officers in his unit as lesser lords in "pocket boroughs", for the sole purpose of padding parliamentary seats in his favor.

solmanian

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #9 on: 24 July 2014, 02:49:43 »
Ok, so we agree that even if the planet is given a warrior hold, the local nobles retain their property and privileges. My question is if said nobles can in turn divide their territory as warrior holds; essentially "double booking" or "triple booking" the landholds for multiple groups of warriors. I see no problem with a regiment being in charge of planetary defense, while another group defends a specific target, like a factory or town.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

guardiandashi

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #10 on: 24 July 2014, 09:54:02 »
Ok, so we agree that even if the planet is given a warrior hold, the local nobles retain their property and privileges. My question is if said nobles can in turn divide their territory as warrior holds; essentially "double booking" or "triple booking" the landholds for multiple groups of warriors. I see no problem with a regiment being in charge of planetary defense, while another group defends a specific target, like a factory or town.

my thought is that its simple in theory but more complicated in practice.
if you consider most feudal government to be in "layers" my idea makes a lot of sense.
I am going to use the house davion title list
first prince 11
prince or princes champion 10
march lord (duke) 9
duke 8
marques 7
count 6
viscount 5
baron 4
knight of fed suns/order of davion 3
knight of realm 2
knight 1

when someone is assigned a title they "rank" people below them, but should respect people above them in the hierarchy.
a knight can't issue a "title" to anyone below them as they are the bottom tier, but they can create a squire or equivalent, but they are essentially their household
a baron can assign knights to "sub holdings" in their area and I am sure there are limits to how many they can have, and of course there would be resentment if you out anyone without (or with) cause.
a viscount would have a number of barons and or knights reporting to them and so on up the list.

in the case of the dragoons and outreach, they were effectively plugged in at somewhere between the marques- duke level for the planet of outreach

solmanian

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Re: Landholds: dividing warrior holds
« Reply #11 on: 24 July 2014, 10:47:40 »
when someone is assigned a title they "rank" people below them, but should respect people above them in the hierarchy.
a knight can't issue a "title" to anyone below them as they are the bottom tier, but they can create a squire or equivalent, but they are essentially their household
a baron can assign knights to "sub holdings" in their area and I am sure there are limits to how many they can have, and of course there would be resentment if you out anyone without (or with) cause.
a viscount would have a number of barons and or knights reporting to them and so on up the list.
Actually, that's not accurate. Every noble can divide his landhold, and give land grants to as many people as he wish, and organize it as he wish. For example: he can divide his landhold among 10 individuals, and than divide it among gentlemans A,B and C, and tell the previous 10 guys that they pay their taxes to either A,B or C, according the he divided it. Than A,B and C have to pay their taxes to him, he pays the guy above him, and the guy in charge of the planet pays the state; in theory anyway, since the planetary governor probably keep the same chain of paying the guys above him, like the march lords, all the way to the sovereign who may theoretically be entitled to all that money, has to spend the vast majority of it on actually running the empire, and only a tiny percentage actually goes into his personal bank account...

Ennoblement (the act of turning a schmock from the street into a noble, or "upgrading" a noble, like a baron to a viscount), is an entirely different matter. Just like a captain can't just promote sergeants into leftenants, a count or a baron can't just ennoble/knight people. He can assign civilian titles (like the CapCon Diem) that'll make them as powerfull as noble if not more (notice how the Diem title is ranked above most nobles in the cappy title table).

Only a Duke or above can ennoble people. And it usually requires more than simply doing the duke a solid, that at best get you knighted; but if you want the hereditary titles you have to be a serious mover and shaker in the realm, with the title being merely a feather in your cap, a recognition of your power, not the source of your power. Think CEOs of powerful companies or even the owners or major merc units.

Unless you're a Lyran. Than you can just write a check...
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.