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Author Topic: Re-engineered Lasers try 2  (Read 9576 times)

Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #60 on: 23 October 2014, 01:09:59 »
Lots of the sorts of analyses used for comparison will rarely-to-never occur in actual play.  That doesn't make them useless as a means of comparing the two systems.

It also doesn't make them gospel for determining the relative worth of weapons.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #61 on: 23 October 2014, 11:38:01 »
That's true.  Is there an alternative that works better?
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #62 on: 23 October 2014, 13:14:12 »
Sure.  Actual gameplay.  Say...take a Prey Hunter and a Prey Hunter variant that replaces the REL with standards.  Run engagements against the same enemy on the same map.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #63 on: 23 October 2014, 13:16:17 »
How many times did you run it?  What were the results?  Did you do anything similar with REL or RESes?
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #64 on: 23 October 2014, 13:18:02 »
How many times did you run it?  What were the results?  Did you do anything similar with REL or RESes?

Irrelevant.  I'm not the one declaring the weapons are useless based on a test that will never occur in actual gameplay.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #65 on: 23 October 2014, 13:26:29 »
The real problem with Re-engineered lasers is how relatively rare the armor types they're superior to standard lasers against are.  Even in 3145 there are only a few dozen at best mechs, vehicles, and battle armor types that mount such armor, so you really have to know ahead of time that you'll be facing a Stalker II or Gunsmith before choosing to take a unit with RE Lasers is a good decision.

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #66 on: 23 October 2014, 13:27:10 »
Irrelevant.  I'm not the one declaring the weapons are useless based on a test that will never occur in actual gameplay.
But you're saying that they are useful, without having ever tested that?  Since you can't actually prove a negative, it' impossible to prove they're useless, just as it's impossible to prove the non-existence of bigfoot or aliens.  The burden of proof is on the folks making testable statements, ie "They're not useless in actual gameplay."  Can you offer any proof of that?
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #67 on: 23 October 2014, 14:00:26 »
The burden of proof is on the folks making testable statements, ie "They're not useless in actual gameplay."  Can you offer any proof of that?

So your default stance on all new equipment is "That's useless"?  Or is it just the RE-laser that you've decided to single out? If it's just the RE-laser, what's your actual testable proof that it is?  And no, the example that will never appear in game play does.  not.  count.

GreekFire

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #68 on: 23 October 2014, 14:04:30 »
OK, I actually ran a test. Two modified Hitotsume Kozos. One with two medium re-lasers, one large re-laser, one SRM-6, 13 double heat sinks. The other with seven medium lasers, one large laser, one SRM-6 and 14 double heat sinks. No jump jets for either because I felt they would skew the results.

End results: 6-4 in favor of the standard laser machine. Now, the thing that won it more games wasn't the actual amount of damage that it was putting out, but rather the fact that it was forcing PSRs all the time and causing the Re-Laser machine to fall more often than not. This caused the Re-Laser mech's TH numbers to go up, causing it to land even fewer hits. The games that the Re-Laser machine won were because of its superior hole-punching.

I think this shows my biggest problem with Re-Lasers: their inability to force PSRs. If a medium (standard) laser hits hardened armor, it deals 2.5 damage to the armor but counts as 5 damage for PSR calculations. If a medium Re-Laser hits hardened armor, it deals 6 damage to the armor but still only counts as 6 damage for PSR calculations. This seems really backwards to me. If it were changed (either having the standard laser only counting as dealing 2.5 damage for PSR calculations OR having the medium Re-Laser count as 12 damage) it would suddenly give Re-Lasers a much better chance at performing well when compared to standard lasers.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #69 on: 23 October 2014, 14:14:19 »
So your default stance on all new equipment is "That's useless"?  Or is it just the RE-laser that you've decided to single out? If it's just the RE-laser, what's your actual testable proof that it is?  And no, the example that will never appear in game play does.  not.  count.
The argument here is on the RE Laser, I'd rather stay on topic.  But any time new equipment comes out, the first questions asked about it are invariably going to be along the lines of "What does it do?  When do you use it?  Why use it over [insert older, proven tech here]?"  Sometimes, like for Gauss Rifles or DHS, the answer is obvious.  But in this case, I've yet to see any reason to use an RE Laser besides New Toy Syndrome or TPTB's penchant for deliberately-suboptimal designs.  So, if you're arguing that thy're useful, great.  What for?  Let's see some examples.




As far as examples that aren't found in gameplay, aren't the ones that have been presented simply applications of the scientific method?  When conducting an experiment, you want to eliminate as many variables as possible.  Ideally, you have one single variable that separates the experimental group from the control group.  That looks like what's going on here.  Rather than try to extrapolate results through the vagaries of to-hit number, randomly-rolled location, etc, you have folks saying "Given an armor slab of x thickness, how many hits does an RE Laser take to burn through it?  How many hist does a standard laser take?"  Or, given that the previous is know, "Given an equal tonnage (or heat, or critspace allotment, or what have you) of RE Lasers and equivalent standard lasers, how many turns does each take to burn through an armor slab of x thickness?"  Sure, odds are good you'll never come up against such a situation in the game (though yes, it could happen), but the examples are still helpful.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #70 on: 23 October 2014, 14:21:48 »
I think this shows my biggest problem with Re-Lasers: their inability to force PSRs. If a medium (standard) laser hits hardened armor, it deals 2.5 damage to the armor but counts as 5 damage for PSR calculations. If a medium Re-Laser hits hardened armor, it deals 6 damage to the armor but still only counts as 6 damage for PSR calculations.

Where exactly did you come to this rules conclusion?
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GreekFire

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #71 on: 23 October 2014, 14:28:20 »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #72 on: 23 October 2014, 14:33:58 »
This, too: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/tro-3145-free-worlds-league/msg719951/#msg719951  It's been quoted at least a time or two outside the original thread when the subject comes up.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #73 on: 23 October 2014, 15:00:20 »
But you're saying that they are useful, without having ever tested that?  Since you can't actually prove a negative, it' impossible to prove they're useless, just as it's impossible to prove the non-existence of bigfoot or aliens.  The burden of proof is on the folks making testable statements, ie "They're not useless in actual gameplay."  Can you offer any proof of that?

I have.  You have, as well, with proxies.  Do you ever use Medium lasers instead of SRMs?  What would you rather have, 2 Medium lasers or a SRM4 for dealing with Battle Armour?  For attacking the undamaged rear armour of a 'mech?  If you've ever played with a unit that has both medium lasers and SRMs on it, which weapons do you fire first?

I'm on break at work, so I'll keep this quick and not actually bother with MegaMek.  We can simulate 'gameplay' right now.  I will cut corners and assume all shots will be hits.

Code: [Select]
2 Re-Engineered Lasers:  5 tons, 4 crits, 14 heat, 12 damage (in two groups of 6 damage)
5 Medium Lasers:  5 tons, 5 crits, 15 heat, 25/10 damage (in five groups of 5/2 damage)*  *- First number is against standard armour, second number is against reflective.



2 Re-Engineered Medium Lasers vs a squad of Kishi Battle Armour (From the preview of TRO3145: Draconis Combine)

It has 7 points of Reflective Armour (+1 for the trooper)
From [url=http://www.random.org]Random.Org[/url] Dice Roller:

20 Virtual Dice Roll Results:  1,2,5,2,1,1,5,4,5,4,2,3,3,1,6,3,5,1,1,3

Turn 1:

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Turn 2:

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '2'

-  Trooper 2: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.

Turn 3:  (Squad is now at 50% effectiveness)

Result of 1 is 'Rerolled' due to trooper 1 being killed on the previous turn.  Skipped to the next result of '5'
Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 2 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'

-  Trooper 4: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to the squad only having 2 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'

-  Trouper 4: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead

Turn 4: (Squad is now at 25% effectiveness.  All die results will be rerolled until the only remaining trooper is hit)

-  Trooper 3: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.

***Squad is dead in 4 turns.***

 
5 Medium Lasers vs a squad of Kishi Battle Armour (From the preview of TRO3145: Draconis Combine)

It has 7 points of Reflective Armour (+1 for the trooper)
From [url=http://www.random.org]Random.Org[/url] Dice Roller:

20 Virtual Dice Roll Results:  1,2,5,2,1,1,5,4,5,4,2,3,3,1,6,3,5,1,1,3

Turn 1:

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '2'
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Turn 2:

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining

Turn 3:

- Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead

Result of 6 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '3'
- Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '1'

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead.

Turn 4:  (Squad is now at 50% effectiveness)
[Additional dice rolled:  4,5,6,2,6,3,6,1,2,5,6,5,4,1,6,5,4,4,3,6]
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage. 1 Armour point remaining

Results 5 and 6 'Rerolled'
- Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage. Dead.

Results 6,3,6 and 1 'Rerolled'
-Trooper 2:  Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.

Results 5,6 and 5 'Rerolled'
-Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead.

***Squad is dead in 4 turns***

Now, while both the 2 Re-Engineered Lasers and the 5 Medium lasers killed the squad in 4 turns, you'll note that the squad was crippled more quickly with the Re-Engineered Lasers.

This example is also in favour of the Medium lasers because:

-It 'only' takes 4 hits from a medium laser to kill a trooper, whereas the 2 lasers from a Re-Engineered Medium laser results in a lot of 'wasted' damage (~50% more damage is expended on a trooper than is required).

If we used a heavier suit-  for example a medium suit with 10 or 11 points of reflective armour it would take six shots from a medium laser to do what a pair of Re-Engineered medium lasers could do.

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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #75 on: 23 October 2014, 18:07:45 »
But in this case, I've yet to see any reason to use an RE Laser besides New Toy Syndrome or TPTB's penchant for deliberately-suboptimal designs.  So, if you're arguing that thy're useful, great.  What for?  Let's see some examples.

Zou Heavy Battle Armor:  It will take 6 hits from standard medium lasers to kill a single suit.  It will take 2 hits from RE-mediums to kill a single suit.  Of course, hits are randomized among a squad of 4 troopers, so best-case scenario for ML or ERML shooting a squad of Zou is 6 hits.  Worst case is 21 hits before a trooper dies.  Now the RE-ML.  Best case is 2 hits.  Worst case is 5 hits.  Yes, worst case for REML fire is better than the best case for ML fire.

Kamakiri VTOL:  7 hits by REML on the front armor kill the VTOL.  It will take 19 hits from standard ML fire to do the same.

Narukami Heavy Tank:  8 hits from REML on the front armor will kill the tank.  It will take 19 hits (because Hardened tracks fractions) for ML to kill the tank.

But wait, you say.  'Mechs can just mount hordes of ML to cancel this out!  That assume these hordes of ML will *all hit the same location*.  Let's run another math experiment.  A 'Mech with Ferro-Lamellor armor is destroyed by 2 REML hits to the head or by 3 standard ML hits to the head.  On the surface, this favors the ML machine.  However the odds of this occuring are 1/1296 for the REML shots and 1/46656 for the ML shots if my math is correct.  And that is where "single hit location" analysis falls apart.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #76 on: 23 October 2014, 19:05:02 »
But wait, you say.  'Mechs can just mount hordes of ML to cancel this out!  That assume these hordes of ML will *all hit the same location*.  Let's run another math experiment.  A 'Mech with Ferro-Lamellor armor is destroyed by 2 REML hits to the head or by 3 standard ML hits to the head.  On the surface, this favors the ML machine.  However the odds of this occuring are 1/1296 for the REML shots and 1/46656 for the ML shots if my math is correct.  And that is where "single hit location" analysis falls apart.

But wait, I say.  Due to the numbers of locations 'Mechs have and armor, greater damage potential has a higher likelihood of ending the battle faster than miraculous shot groupings.  Two RE MLs against five normal MLs, you're seeing a damage potential disparity of 12 damage versus 20.  The latter is also actually capable of forcing a PSR once in a blue moon.  This is a concrete and quantifiable advantage (against Ferro-Lamellor, much less regular armor!), where as your rebuttal uses at its central focus an event that has a less than 0.1% greater likelihood of happening than the alternative.  And that is where "Re-Engineered Lasers" fall apart.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #77 on: 23 October 2014, 19:44:09 »
Hardly.  I chose that for an extreme example.

Let's take the Rokokubri.  5 points of hardened Rear Center Torso Armor.  It will take a single REML to go internal and do damage.  This is a 1/6 chance.

Standard Medium Lasers?  It will take 3 hits to go internal, being a 1/216 chance.

The Wendigo!  This time you need 2 REML to go internal on the rear CT, making it a 1/36 chance.  However you'd need FIVE standard lasers.

The Hitotsume Kozo?  A single REML to any rear torso goes internal, where you need 3 standard medium lasers.  Two REMLs will penetrate the arms vs 5 hits needed from standard lasers.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #78 on: 23 October 2014, 20:59:12 »
Battle Armour mounting special armours.  A Re-Engineered laser will kill off a trouper (and thus reduce the firepower of the squad/point by 25~20% respectively) in far fewer turns than a pair of standard lasers will.

That really only holds true at a few specific thresholds which you are not going to see all that often.  Even against BA, odds are you will need multiple hits from either weapon system to knock out a suit so things will even out fairly quickly and get you back to grinding through a wall of armor with luck mattering more than which weapon you chose.

Quote
But this is where the endless arguing begins: 

1)  Someone asks what use a Re-Engineered Laser has
2)  Someone replies that Re-Engineered Lasers have a niche use at X
3)  Original person replies that weapon Y is better at use X than the Re-Engineered laser (E.g, someone will say to just bring a SRM with Infernos)

Which is moving the goal posts.

I have never done that.  I limit my arguments to the RE-Lasers vs. the standard of the same model because while an artillery cannon will make a mess of any BA unit you point it at, it is a very different weapon with a very different roll that is not comparable to any of the lasers.

Indeed.  A lot of the Battletech weapons can be classified as either 'hole punchers' (for lack of a better term) like Gauss Rifles and AC20s that deal a lot of damage to a single location and the 'Damage over time' or 'sandblasters' like SRMs and LBx.

A battery of SRMs or Medium lasers may do more damage over time than an AC20 but the AC20 can cripple a light or medium 'mech in one shot.  Most people here can agree that both types have their uses.

The Re-Engineered lasers fall between the two against special armours.  Medium lasers essentially become SRMs against special armour, the Re-Engineered lasers perform similar to their standard equivalents against regular armour, and the big guns (Gauss Rifles, AC20s, whatever) remain the big guns.

Anytime you'd use a medium laser instead of, say, SRMs or an AC20 is when you'd use a Re-Engineered medium laser against a unit with special armour.  That's their niche.

The thing is, that cluster band is all about raw damage efficiency.  You gain real advantage from either very concentrated damage or lots of hits, so the way weapons like the Medium Laser remain viable is by being one of the most efficient ways to pump out lots of raw damage to grind through heavy armor.  By extension, the RE-Lasers should be filling the same roll because their cluster size is similar with twist of doing it against specialty armors, but the fact of the matter is that they are no more efficient than the degraded standard models in that roll so there is absolutely no reason to use them.

So your default stance on all new equipment is "That's useless"?  Or is it just the RE-laser that you've decided to single out? If it's just the RE-laser, what's your actual testable proof that it is?  And no, the example that will never appear in game play does.  not.  count.

I was going to keep ignoring you, but I had to respond to this complete butchery of logic.  We have already provided an argument against the RE-Lasers backed up by mathematical reasoning.  It may not be the most 100% rock solid bulletproof evidence ever because we did not chew through every possible statistical permutation, but it is still concrete evidence that the RE-Lasers do not work as intended.  In order to refute that, you have to provide stronger counterevidence which I have yet to see in any form.  The closest I have seen are cherry picked examples and individual incidents which are far from conclusive proof.  After all, it is entirely possible for a Sucession Wars-era Wasp or Stinger to kill a Dire Wolf in a duel if the dice work out right, but no one in their right mind will claim the bugs are actually superior to that monster of an assault.

I have.  You have, as well, with proxies.  Do you ever use Medium lasers instead of SRMs?  What would you rather have, 2 Medium lasers or a SRM4 for dealing with Battle Armour?  For attacking the undamaged rear armour of a 'mech?  If you've ever played with a unit that has both medium lasers and SRMs on it, which weapons do you fire first?

I'm on break at work, so I'll keep this quick and not actually bother with MegaMek.  We can simulate 'gameplay' right now.  I will cut corners and assume all shots will be hits.

Code: [Select]
2 Re-Engineered Lasers:  5 tons, 4 crits, 14 heat, 12 damage (in two groups of 6 damage)
5 Medium Lasers:  5 tons, 5 crits, 15 heat, 25/10 damage (in five groups of 5/2 damage)*  *- First number is against standard armour, second number is against reflective.



2 Re-Engineered Medium Lasers vs a squad of Kishi Battle Armour (From the preview of TRO3145: Draconis Combine)

It has 7 points of Reflective Armour (+1 for the trooper)
From [url=http://www.random.org]Random.Org[/url] Dice Roller:

20 Virtual Dice Roll Results:  1,2,5,2,1,1,5,4,5,4,2,3,3,1,6,3,5,1,1,3

Turn 1:

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Turn 2:

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '2'

-  Trooper 2: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.

Turn 3:  (Squad is now at 50% effectiveness)

Result of 1 is 'Rerolled' due to trooper 1 being killed on the previous turn.  Skipped to the next result of '5'
Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 2 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'

-  Trooper 4: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to the squad only having 2 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'

-  Trouper 4: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead

Turn 4: (Squad is now at 25% effectiveness.  All die results will be rerolled until the only remaining trooper is hit)

-  Trooper 3: Hit for 6 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 6 damage.  Dead.

***Squad is dead in 4 turns.***

 
5 Medium Lasers vs a squad of Kishi Battle Armour (From the preview of TRO3145: Draconis Combine)

It has 7 points of Reflective Armour (+1 for the trooper)
From [url=http://www.random.org]Random.Org[/url] Dice Roller:

20 Virtual Dice Roll Results:  1,2,5,2,1,1,5,4,5,4,2,3,3,1,6,3,5,1,1,3

Turn 1:

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '2'
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Turn 2:

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '4'
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  5 Armour points remaining
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  3 Armour points remaining

Turn 3:

- Trooper 1: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead

Result of 6 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '3'
- Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  1 Armour point remaining

Result of 5 is 'Rerolled' due to squad only having 4 troopers.  Skipped to the next die result of '1'

-  Trooper 1: Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.
-  Trooper 1: Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.
-  Trooper 3: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead.

Turn 4:  (Squad is now at 50% effectiveness)
[Additional dice rolled:  4,5,6,2,6,3,6,1,2,5,6,5,4,1,6,5,4,4,3,6]
-  Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage. 1 Armour point remaining

Results 5 and 6 'Rerolled'
- Trooper 2: Hit for 2 damage. Dead.

Results 6,3,6 and 1 'Rerolled'
-Trooper 2:  Hit for 0 damage.  Already dead this turn.

Results 5,6 and 5 'Rerolled'
-Trooper 4: Hit for 2 damage.  Dead.

***Squad is dead in 4 turns***

Now, while both the 2 Re-Engineered Lasers and the 5 Medium lasers killed the squad in 4 turns, you'll note that the squad was crippled more quickly with the Re-Engineered Lasers.

While that is true in this single test, it is more the result of unusual luck than anything else.  Your first four shots all landed on the same half of the squad which is a 2/16 chance (12.5%), and your next two both went into the same trooper as well which is another 2/4 chance (50%) for a combined 1/16 chance (6.25%) of getting that kind of grouping.  That is very far outside the bounds of expected values and significantly altered the test results here.  Realistically, you would need to either do some heavy duty number crunching to see what the expected values are or set up a program to simulate a very large number of tests (I would go for at least 10,000) to generate a statistically significant body of data to work from in order for this type of test to be statistically meaningful.

Now, looking at it I do think there is probably a small advantage for the RE-Lasers here, but it is very minor and not at all worth taking the REMLs for.

Quote
This example is also in favour of the Medium lasers because:

-It 'only' takes 4 hits from a medium laser to kill a trooper, whereas the 2 lasers from a Re-Engineered Medium laser results in a lot of 'wasted' damage (~50% more damage is expended on a trooper than is required).

If we used a heavier suit-  for example a medium suit with 10 or 11 points of reflective armour it would take six shots from a medium laser to do what a pair of Re-Engineered medium lasers could do.

This is true, although the optimal cases for the RE-Lasers are still extremely rare and do not offer a drastic advantage over the standard, especially when you factor in how far behind the RE-Lasers are against anything else including the internal structures of 'Mechs that used to be covered by Reflective or Hardened Armor.

Still, while RE-Lasers do have some minor advantage cases against BA with Reflective Armor, it is not a reason to use the weapons on its own.  After all, if you are really that worried about BA with reflective armor that you are specifically selecting weapons to counter them, you will probably be gravitating towards something with a more definite advantage against them like the Mech Mortars or Artillery Cannons which will inflict massive AE damage on every trooper in the squad with each hit.  After all, the enormous Long Tom Cannon can instantly annihilate a full squad of assault BA with max reflective armor on a miss (AE damage is doubled against Reflective Armor), although it is not even close to directly competing with the REML at 20 tons, 15 crits, and 20 heat a shot plus several tons of explosive ammo (but it is hilarious against all kinds of things, especially in urban combat >:D).

Now, if you can come up with some other meaningful advantages you might be able to make a case for them on a combination of small advantage cases, but I am still not seeing anything that is even remotely close to making up for their pitiful damage output.


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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #79 on: 23 October 2014, 21:06:16 »
Diablo, your "mathematical evidence" is invalid because it CAN.  NOT.  EXIST.  BattleMechs are not solitary hit locations with armor values so high as to be meaningless.

The only "evidence" I'd consider conclusive would be multiple battles using both REL and standard lasers against the same opponent on the same terrain with the same skills.

In the meantime, I'll continue to consider RE Lasers a viable if very limited weapon...and treat them as a replacement for IS Pulse Lasers.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #80 on: 23 October 2014, 22:15:44 »
Diablo, your "mathematical evidence" is invalid because it CAN.  NOT.  EXIST.  BattleMechs are not solitary hit locations with armor values so high as to be meaningless.

I don't think anyone here was arguing that.  No one but you has said anything about "armor values so high as to be meaningless".  In fact, part of the argument against RELs is that once you get through the armor, regular lasers burn through IS a lot more efficiently.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #81 on: 23 October 2014, 22:21:04 »
Diablo, your "mathematical evidence" is invalid because it CAN.  NOT.  EXIST.  BattleMechs are not solitary hit locations with armor values so high as to be meaningless.

This is not the point of statistical analysis.  You know what else can not exist?  Any sort of knowledge whatsoever of whether your laser will connect, whether your 'Mech will pass a PSR to stay standing, or any one of literally hundreds of millions of permutations of dice rolls.  If you can't take numbers in a vacuum and at least get a passing resemblance to anything likely, then it quite frankly isn't happening in BattleTech.

Statistical analysis takes a series of assumptions (targets are at the same range bands, tonnage available is similar, pilots are the same skill), and distills the likelihood of a given outcome to a probability.  If you have a TN of 8+, then one shot is more likely to miss than hit, and 10 shots are likely to hit four or so of them, assuming an average distribution of dice rolls.  In order to make the analysis valid at all, these basic probabilities are applied to all instances: Assuming a TN of 8+, we would take 41.8% of a weapon's damage as the average, and work from there.

In this instance, RE Lasers need some really fringe scenarios to be useful.  "Reflective armor Battle Armor with armor values between six and nine" is really niche to be arguing where RE Lasers are effective.  "Against standard armor" is much simpler (and more representative of your normal battle) than anything RE Lasers have been proven to be good at so far.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #82 on: 23 October 2014, 22:32:08 »
After all, the enormous Long Tom Cannon can instantly annihilate a full squad of assault BA with max reflective armor on a miss (AE damage is doubled against Reflective Armor),

Minor point, but this is incorrect: BA Reflective armor has none of the vulnerability to AE or physical damage that mech grade Reflective Armor has.

Now, back to the probably inconclusive argument about the utility or lack thereof of RE lasers.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #83 on: 23 October 2014, 22:33:11 »
Minor point, but this is incorrect: BA Reflective armor has none of the vulnerability to AE or physical damage that mech grade Reflective Armor has.

Now, back to the probably inconclusive argument about the utility or lack thereof of RE lasers.

A Long Tom will still kill any non-Reactive battle armor squad in the game, though, and most of the reactive ones besides.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #84 on: 23 October 2014, 23:00:51 »
Yes.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #85 on: 24 October 2014, 00:01:42 »
You know what else would be good?  Comparing RE-lasers to the weapons they were developed from.  Which is not, by the way, standard lasers.

RE-lasers were developed from Pulse Lasers, not the amazingly efficient Standard Medium Laser (seriously, there have been complaints about how good the standard ML on a number of occasions).

Going along with your arguments, the AC/20 is a waste of space compared to the ML, as is the SRM-6.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #86 on: 24 October 2014, 00:07:52 »
There's responding to a point, and then there's just being ridiculous.  You know very well that damage thresholds have been discussed previously in this thread, and that the AC/20 breaks several key thresholds that make it worth more than the sum of medium lasers.  20 points of damage is a lot in one hit.  9 points is not, and 6 points is even less impressive.  SRMs critseek like nobody's business, something that both normal and RE lasers are really bad at.

Comparing RE Lasers to pulse lasers makes RE lasers look better, but it doesn't make them perform better in the respective role.  They're still not good weapons.

If you feel the need to move the goalposts that far in order to successfully make a statement about RE lasers, that should tell you something.

I still don't understand this powerful need people feel to defend RE Lasers.  They're not useless.  They're also not good.  Declaring something isn't good isn't saying that no one should ever use them ever, or that they're bad additions to the game, it just means that they're not good.  You don't need to rescue the weapon from its stats.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #87 on: 24 October 2014, 00:13:04 »
And Diablo is saying they're worthless and shouldn't be used so perhaps you should stop misrepresenting the other side.

*I* am not saying RE-lasers should replace all other energy weapons.  I am saying that they do have uses, and those uses are based on design theory.  RE-lasers should be used on fast machines that can get around to rear armor locations which are thinly protected by the specialty armor.  They also should not be the only weapons on a 'mech.

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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #88 on: 24 October 2014, 00:47:49 »
There's responding to a point, and then there's just being ridiculous.  You know very well that damage thresholds have been discussed previously in this thread, and that the AC/20 breaks several key thresholds that make it worth more than the sum of medium lasers.  20 points of damage is a lot in one hit.  9 points is not, and 6 points is even less impressive.  SRMs critseek like nobody's business, something that both normal and RE lasers are really bad at.

Comparing RE Lasers to pulse lasers makes RE lasers look better, but it doesn't make them perform better in the respective role.  They're still not good weapons.

If you feel the need to move the goalposts that far in order to successfully make a statement about RE lasers, that should tell you something.

I still don't understand this powerful need people feel to defend RE Lasers.  They're not useless.  They're also not good.  Declaring something isn't good isn't saying that no one should ever use them ever, or that they're bad additions to the game, it just means that they're not good.  You don't need to rescue the weapon from its stats.
I'm saying that they don't have a niche.  Anything they can do, something else can do better.  That's pretty much useless, unless you consider "doing a job badly" to be a use.


And Diablo is saying they're worthless and shouldn't be used so perhaps you should stop misrepresenting the other side.

*I* am not saying RE-lasers should replace all other energy weapons.  I am saying that they do have uses, and those uses are based on design theory.  RE-lasers should be used on fast machines that can get around to rear armor locations which are thinly protected by the specialty armor.  They also should not be the only weapons on a 'mech.
Something that's fast enough to be a backstabber probably doesn't have the mass to mount anything else.  And if they do have other weapons, odds are good you'd be better off using the other weapons themselves.
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Re: Re-engineered Lasers try 2
« Reply #89 on: 24 October 2014, 01:02:45 »
I'm saying that they don't have a niche.  Anything they can do, something else can do better.  That's pretty much useless, unless you consider "doing a job badly" to be a use.

Punch through the rear armor of a Rokokubri.  You have five tons.

 

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