The Rasalhague Dominion: Friend of a Friend (but not your Friend)

[Jellico]

Not a big fan of MASC on a 3/5 either. Though an extra ton buys a Supercharger which allows safe-ish 4/6 for a few turns. I am not sure if 5 tons would buy a bigger engine.

I am mainly asking because I am trying to get my head around a touman without the Kingfisher or Warhawk. Hopefully we will find out later in the year. But Tomahawks are pretty much unobtainable as are Blood Asps. Find out about the Dire Wolf too I guess.

[Scotty]

MASC on 3/5 is for letting it get a +2 TMM with a turn, and based on how defensive BV for TMM works I'm pretty sure the BV cost for that capability is trivial.

It also means being able to mount a Supercharger to get to 8 MP, which is absolutely worth it for being able to spike to +3 TMM.

[Zeruel]

Since we're talking about the Deimos, does the fluff text mention why it has a fixed AMS and 2 fixed lasers? Sarna doesn't elaborate other than to say they are there

[truetanker]

This may sound shocking...

I've used a Dire Wolf in an unconventional way...

Cargo carrier...

Had a campaign with limited transportation... used the slow ones as cargo carriers.

Worked, carried more cargo and with so much armor too.

TT

[Zeruel]

Is there anything in the new Battle of Tukayyid book that is especially relevant to the Bears that we don't really know yet? Trying to determine if I should get it

[Jellico]

Since we're talking about the Deimos, does the fluff text mention why it has a fixed AMS and 2 fixed lasers? Sarna doesn't elaborate other than to say they are there

Ancient memories... but I seem to recall an effort not to make another generic 3/5 XL empty box.

[Zeruel]

It's interesting, but due to the fixed ERMLs and the internals layout, you actually can't do a Warhawk Prime on the Deimos unless you want to put the TC in an arm and rearrange the PPCs out of that arm

[Zeruel]

Are we still building Mad Dogs?

so no, we are not, according to the new RecGuide
but the Mk II is essentially identical (as mentioned), and of course the III is better

[Kerfuffin(925)]

so no, we are not, according to the new RecGuide
but the Mk II is essentially identical (as mentioned), and of course the III is better

I really hope we convert that heavy Omni line into something else tho. We don’t need that level of redundancy.

[Jellico]

P108. Masters and Minions

Bergan Industries
Corporate HQ: Alshain, Ares (Capellan Confederation)
Key Facilities: Alshain, Thule, Rasalhague, New Oslo,
Ares (Capellan Confederation)
The largest BattleMech supplier within Rasalhague space,
Bergan Industries—often identified by subsidiary names such as
“Alshain BattleWorx”, “Alshain Weapons” (the Alshain and New
Oslo facilities aquired from GKT) or simply “Alshain”

I somehow doubt that there is a Mad Dog II line. Alshain Weapons (Mad Dog III) is Bergan Industries (Mad Dog II).

[Kerfuffin(925)]

P108. Masters and MinionsI somehow doubt that there is a Mad Dog II line. Alshain Weapons (Mad Dog III) is Bergan Industries (Mad Dog II).

Good catch. I suppose anything the horses put on the old vulture (I/II) can be put on the III with some room to spare

[Jellico]

Masters and Minions is an awesome resource. Sarna misses a lot of its subtleties in the factory write-ups. It was the basis of the later Objectives series.

If nothing else the recent discussion has reminded me later Mechs like the Deimos and Mad Dog III have missed out on the NTNU treatment because they are overshadowed by more popular historic Mechs. Once the kickstarter clears the system I will do what I can to get it looked at across all Clans newer OmniMechs.

[Scotty]

The Vulture Mk III debuted in TRO 3145 The Clans so I think it's a bit off-base to say it missed the NTNU treatment.  It is the new tech already.  It even has a config with the kind of tech going into RecGuide configs, too, in the D stuffed full of RACs.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The Vulture Mk III debuted in TRO 3145 The Clans so I think it's a bit off-base to say it missed the NTNU treatment.  It is the new tech already.  It even has a config with the kind of tech going into RecGuide configs, too, in the D stuffed full of RACs.

One of our 4 has one unique piece of newer tech, everything else is clan intro stuff (aside from micro pulse). Not even stuff like ATMs, HAGs or heavy lasers, or even Artemis. The Vulture std now has 13 variants, with 7 of them using stuff from beyond introductory clan stuff.

I understand why TPTB are updating these older mechs, but it’s kind of frustrating to see all the new stuff mostly sitting on the sideline, especially the direct replacement mechs (Summoner, Loki/Hel, Mad Dog III)

[Scotty]

Number of configs does not and has never had anything to do with how common a 'Mech is or how often it sees combat. ???

[Zeruel]

Number of configs does not and has never had anything to do with how common a 'Mech is or how often it sees combat. ???

I don't think anyone has implied that...just that the old stuff that are supposedly phased out for the newer stuff are still getting a ton of new updates while some of the new stuff don't even have configs with anything more than standard tech when the Clans were introduced

[Scotty]

Then I'm not sure what else "sideline" refers to unless it's literally how recently the unit has appeared in a print book, which I think is missing the mark for a number of reasons.

[Zeruel]

Then I'm not sure what else "sideline" refers to unless it's literally how recently the unit has appeared in a print book

Pretty sure this is what was meant

[Jellico]

The Vulture Mk III debuted in TRO 3145 The Clans so I think it's a bit off-base to say it missed the NTNU treatment.  It is the new tech already.  It even has a config with the kind of tech going into RecGuide configs, too, in the D stuffed full of RACs.

TRO3045: The Clans is 7 years old now.
While I admit the new variant trend didn't occur until the Es and Hs after ATM'S and Heavy Lasers the 3050-58 Omnis (and favoured BattleMechs) have been consistently receiving variants every few years or so.

Newer Mechs haven't been getting similar love. Part of that familiarity. See TRO bloat etc. I couldn't even name the Omnis Clan Jade Falcon are building at the moment. Part is simple newness, but as I said at the start. TRO3045 is a shocking 7-8 years old.

I will admit that I am sensitive to this. I am coming from an aerospace bias where the Clans are largely stuck with Aerotech 1 optimised Omnifighters three rules was later.

In the case of the Dominion we have 5 main OmniMechs.  The Executioner has been dragged into the modern era by using every trick in the book as has the Firemoth. There is not much you can do with a Viper. The Karhu (TRO3085 2010) got a NTNU in TRO3145 to keep it ticking over. And remember it got lumbered with MW:DA variants that aren't always effective in BattleTech. That leaves the Mad Dog III.

So I figure the 3145 Mechs are coming due for some NTNU love. Especially those with MW:DA compromised variants.

[Scotty]

TRO3145 is 7 years old, but the thing that makes for new tech and new upgrades is not "age of the TRO", it's "another major TRO set later" and to date the only thing that fits that description is the print Recognition Guide that does not yet exist and will not yet exist for some time.

Part of my combination of incredulity and disappointment is coming from the very simple perspective of "there is already too much shit to pick from here".  Adding more configs and more configs and more configs doesn't fix that at all, regardless of which chassis they're added to.  After a point it's not "love", it's overcrowding.

[Jellico]

For me it is not so much about tech as technique. A Mech released in a TRO is a designers best guess as to what might work with a given specification. There is no way they can match 5 years of players using and discussing a Mech, finding out how and what works in endlessly creative ways. We all know there are Omni variants no one would ever touch and are effectively retired.

The NTNUs are a chance to respond to feedback, freshen up a Mech. Eg, smoothing out the infamous FWL light gauss misuse.

I do agree on the bloat. Retirements are probably the best solution but it is not a very BattleTech solution, what with the anyone can use anything philosophy. Unfortunately new Mechs and variants are just a sign of life in this game.

[Zeruel]

TRO3145 is 7 years old, but the thing that makes for new tech and new upgrades is not "age of the TRO", it's "another major TRO set later" and to date the only thing that fits that description is the print Recognition Guide that does not yet exist and will not yet exist for some time.

Part of my combination of incredulity and disappointment is coming from the very simple perspective of "there is already too much shit to pick from here".  Adding more configs and more configs and more configs doesn't fix that at all, regardless of which chassis they're added to.  After a point it's not "love", it's overcrowding.

I would agree also about the bloat, but what are you suggesting? That if someone wants to see new configs/variants for Mech A, but those don't appear, that they should be satisfied that Mech B got new configs/variants?

[Scotty]

I would agree also about the bloat, but what are you suggesting? That if someone wants to see new configs/variants for Mech A, but those don't appear, that they should be satisfied that Mech B got new configs/variants?

No, I'm suggesting that comparing Mech A and Mech B by how recently they each got new configs is something very silly to be dissatisfied with.  TROs and configs aren't a zero-sum game, there's no reason to treat more of one as lack of a different one.

[Zeruel]

No, I'm suggesting that comparing Mech A and Mech B by how recently they each got new configs is something very silly to be dissatisfied with.  TROs and configs aren't a zero-sum game, there's no reason to treat more of one as lack of a different one.

I would argue that it's more than just comparing how recently they got configs, but also how many they had beforehand as well as lore circumstances...

An example would be the Mad Dog now having 13 configs, and the Mad Dog III only having 4, despite the Mad Dog III supposedly being a replacement for the older Mech

The same can thus be said for the other "replacement" Mechs introduced

Perhaps they should never have been fluffed that way to begin with and we could not have this issue (maybe the PTB should never have tried to reconcile the MWDA load outs and all Mad Dogs/Mad Dog IIs/Mad Dog IIIs could have been the same machine, etc...)

[Scotty]

The Mad Dog has 13 configs principally because it has existed for over 30 years of real time; the Vulture Mk III has existed for a quarter of that.  Several of those Mad Dog configurations are less than two days old.  One of them is less than a month old.

Actually, doing the research to type that paragraph has helped figure out why that whole perspective bothers me.  Here's how the Mad Dog's configs happened.

Prime, A, B, C were in TRO 3050 in 1990.  You may note that this is one fewer config than the Vulture Mk III published with.

D config I'm not entirely sure when it was published individually, but ATMs were published in 1999 with Field Manual: Warden Clans.  It took the Mad Dog nine years to get its first config outside of 3050.

E and F both have HAGs.  HAGs were introduced with Total Warfare and the revised TRO 3060 with them included was published in 2009, another 10 years later.

H config has Heavy Lasers.  The config was introduced in either the revised TRO 3060 or RS 3050 Upgrades Unabridged, I can't actually tell which one but being generous and saying it's the revised 3060 that's also 2009.  Heavy Lasers have been around since the BattleTech Master Rules in 1998, so that's the absolute earliest it could have been made.

U config is from RS3085 ONN in 2010.  G config is from RS3145 NTNU in 2013.  S config is from Battle of Tukayyid last month.  T, DD, I, V are from Recognition Guide Volume 10 literally yesterday.  Let's plot that timeline.

Four initial configs (1990)
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| <--------- Vulture Mk III YOU ARE HERE
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D config (1999), possibly H config because I can't tell what book that was first introduced.
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E, F, (probably) H configs. (2009)
U config (2010)
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G config (2013)
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S, T, DD, I, V configs (2020)

Does that explain a little bit better why I'm a little bit disappointed about the complaining?  We are experiencing an age of BattleTech product output that has literally never happened before in volume and frequency.  Have some perspective.

[truetanker]

S, T, DD, I, V configs (2020)

Haha... read that with a straight face!

But S should be an older mod, would have been the same time as the Timber Wolf, Kit Fox... when fighting against the IS in an urban environ demanded it.

As S means Jump Jets installed. Yes? or am I reading too much?

Also I think the Mk. II Mad Dog is the same mech, but uses a different " cosmetic " face to defer ' Clan built ' vs. ' IS Clan built ', correct me if I'm wrong please.

TT

[Scotty]

The S config came out with Battle of Tukayyid last month.  My post (and the discussion here regarding the Vulture Mk III's seeming lack of configs) had absolutely nothing to do with in-character dates.

[truetanker]

Oh, RL chronicle time line, not Battletech's...

I see now... my bad.

Carry on good sir!

TT

[Zeruel]

So again, and you've said this isn't what you're trying to say, but what I'm getting is (essentially) Mech A didn't get a variant, but we should be satisfied Mech B did get something

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're disappointed in the complaints because so much CBT content is coming at an unprecedented rate and volume

Well I don't think you should misunderstand either, I'm sure we all are happy with more content, more is always good, but many fans also have certain areas of the universe they are more invested in, and I see no reason they shouldn't be disappointed when that aspect doesn't get an update

Again, to equate what I am getting from what you are saying: even though it's not stuff we are looking for (Mech A didn't get a variant), we should be satisfied with how CBT content is coming out at an unprecedented rate (but be satisfied Mech B got a variant)...

I mean, you can apply what I'm saying to any part of the lore being released...for the people who want nothing to do with the Clans, they are going to want some more Inner Sphere stuff and be disappointed if all that comes out for a bit is Clan info, etc...

I think perhaps what you should take away from the "complaints" really is that it's just grumbling here on a faction-specific thread...no one here is calling on TPTB to change what they're doing in a thread directed at them

[Jellico]

To be fair there are people in this thread who have designed official Mechs. If the chance comes up I would rather have some idea what the users think is necessary rather whatever craziness is in my head. Eg there seems to be an interest in low BV at the moment. Understandable given the rash of very high BV units in the last few years which you can't afford to put on a board.