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Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 42844 times)

CJC070

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #450 on: 21 June 2020, 07:55:04 »
Depends on the relative strength of each, but I think Osis could have pushed something like that through if he'd wanted to.  The issue is that he and the council were both too rabidly conservative to even consider something like that.

Look at the Clan Steel Vipers specifically Perigard Zalman to see an example.  Actually the Steel Vipers and Smoke Jaguars were very similar with their opinions and challenges in conquering the Inner Sphere.

Another issue was the lack of battlemechs that Clan Smoke Jaguar had to begin with.  Most of the Solhama units had captured Inner Sphere Mechs (C variants).

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #451 on: 21 June 2020, 10:08:20 »
Those weren't solhama units, as noted if you're solhama you're given a rifle, not a battlemech.  And few of those IS mechs were equipped with Clantech, they were generally stock since the Jaguars didn't have the resources to upgrade them to Clantech.
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Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #452 on: 21 June 2020, 11:28:59 »
Those weren't solhama units, as noted if you're solhama you're given a rifle, not a battlemech.  And few of those IS mechs were equipped with Clantech, they were generally stock since the Jaguars didn't have the resources to upgrade them to Clantech.
This is not correct.
The Clans do have Solahma cluster equipped with Mechs.

Among the 6 clusters defending Huntress were 4 Solahma clusters equipped with Battlemechs
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Iron Guard Galaxy: 12th and 77th Solahma Cluster

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #453 on: 28 June 2020, 22:49:31 »
If in my scenario say the blood spirits wiped out serpent and reclaimed the jags genetic repository with the Jag remains what if any of the following could they claim as the victors:

1) Any salvage
2) Several " production runs" of prized sibkos
           By my understanding and correct me if I am wrong the Clans have the ability to mass produce warriors but they are limited by the trainers, time and equipment of the clan itself right?
            So could the Spirits demand " Give me 2 sibkos of Osis with a side of Moon elementals"
                  Not claiming the blood right but the actual sibkos new babies or young tykes
3) The actual blood rights
         If the jags lost a refusal trial could the Spirits claim the exclusive blood lines or did that still need GC approval?

Wanted to bump up this question re: Sibkos can how that would be handled

rebs

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #454 on: 28 June 2020, 23:17:02 »
I think if the Blood Spirits wiped out Task Force Serpent,  they could have dictated terms and declared themselves the rightful Absorbers of the Smoke Jaguars (In my opinion, the Grand Council would have been fine with this, they were that dysfunctional) .  They would have full rights to do with the Jag bloodlines as they please, from trading bloodlines for material support, to the adoption of all current sibkos in training.


Edited due to autocorrupt
« Last Edit: 29 June 2020, 01:25:54 by rebs »

2ndAcr

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Re: %u201CSave%u201D the Jags
« Reply #455 on: 29 June 2020, 00:37:26 »
 Mass produce yes, still takes 18 years for those warriors to actually take the field. You could "birth" 5,000 warriors and graduate all of them, but it still takes 18 years before they take the field in your Touman. Gonna depend on exactly how many Iron Wombs you actually have available for the task.

 Using it is a multi decade investment. I honestly doubt any clan had more than 300 Iron Wombs for each Phenotype. Each decanting 100 warriors every 9 months for each Phenotype. So call it 1,000 to 1,200 Iron Wombs per Clan. At least that would be my math on the issue. And under normal conditions and training hoping to get maybe 10 graduates out of each "birth" of 100.

 
« Last Edit: 29 June 2020, 00:39:00 by 2ndAcr »

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: %u201CSave%u201D the Jags
« Reply #456 on: 30 June 2020, 16:04:09 »
I honestly doubt any clan had more than 300 Iron Wombs for each Phenotype. Each decanting 100 warriors every 9 months for each Phenotype.

It’s not a continuous process.  Trueborn generations were/are decanted every five years.  So each clan probably has a lot more iron wombs.
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Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #457 on: 01 July 2020, 12:14:31 »
To be clear.   

The 5 years "generation" thing has to do with giving a specific pairing 5 years before those parents are used again to start to see early test results.

I'd assume as soon as the wombs are done they start using them for a different set of parents for another sibko.

So I'm not sure how many they would actually need to keep up with losses.

Also, are all Sibko's 100?   I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan, just like some clans are pure pairing sibkos while others like the Wolves mixed them.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #458 on: 01 July 2020, 12:34:58 »
The term "generation" always seemed stupid to me.

Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch!  ::)
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #459 on: 01 July 2020, 13:19:22 »
To be clear.   

The 5 years "generation" thing has to do with giving a specific pairing 5 years before those parents are used again to start to see early test results.

I'd assume as soon as the wombs are done they start using them for a different set of parents for another sibko.

So I'm not sure how many they would actually need to keep up with losses.

Also, are all Sibko's 100?   I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan, just like some clans are pure pairing sibkos while others like the Wolves mixed them.

I wondered that as well and would higher prestige blood names warrant extra production runs?

truetanker

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #460 on: 01 July 2020, 15:39:27 »
 On that prestigious part, I'd think they're more rare, hence earned bloodnames, not bloodlines. I mean creating genetic material from stock is one thing, but to make more because it's prestigious is another.

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Colt Ward

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Re: %u201CSave%u201D the Jags
« Reply #461 on: 02 July 2020, 12:08:58 »
It’s not a continuous process.  Trueborn generations were/are decanted every five years.  So each clan probably has a lot more iron wombs.

No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources.  The Iron Wombs, training facilities, and instructors are constantly at work creating new warriors.  Heck the most recent being Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: %u201CSave%u201D the Jags
« Reply #462 on: 02 July 2020, 13:32:42 »
No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources.  The Iron Wombs, training facilities, and instructors are constantly at work creating new warriors.  Heck the most recent being Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.

That is what I thought as well. The bottle necks in terms of touman expansion were the trainers and facilities to train and gear for those who became warriors?

So for the jags with their very tough training and limited resource pool had no easy way to quickly bulk up their toumans.

The crusader wolves did a two step thing which addressed the man power issue. They did the harvest trials and basically press ganged the lower casts to pad the garrisons etc

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Re: %u201CSave%u201D the Jags
« Reply #463 on: 02 July 2020, 14:22:58 »
That is what I thought as well. The bottle necks in terms of touman expansion were the trainers and facilities to train and gear for those who became warriors?

So for the jags with their very tough training and limited resource pool had no easy way to quickly bulk up their toumans.

The crusader wolves did a two step thing which addressed the man power issue. They did the harvest trials and basically press ganged the lower casts to pad the garrisons etc

But only after half the touman- the part not involved in the Refusal War- misjumped into a black hole.

The Jags, as presented, had a problem in their inability to adapt.  What they did and how they did it worked well when everyone used the same rules in the Home Worlds, their reputation let them get away with a lot of things as they scavenged against the weaker Clans.  Did we ever get any indication the Jags used C models like the Falcons and other Clans did in their OZs- I know its on the MUL, but we never actually saw it in SB or fiction I think.  I mean, Howell was executed for daring have IS salvage equip the garrison of Huntress- most Clans would have praised that for avoiding waste!  Mechs were sitting in the IS without being used, empty ships from the OZ back to Home Worlds- win win!  But no, it tarnished their image?
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #464 on: 02 July 2020, 15:00:15 »
Also, are all Sibko's 100?   I forget but I thought there was some variation of 20-100 based on clan

Moderate clans have smaller sibkos (Wolves use 20) with fewer training deaths and washouts but rely on more challenging ToPs to ensure high quality in the touman.  More conservative/radical clans have larger sibkos (up to 100), in which most of the sibkin die or wash out during training.

The term "generation" always seemed stupid to me.

Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch!  ::)

As a dad, it makes perfect sense.  Pediatricians track growth (height, weight), test sight, hearing, and reflexes, assess pulmonary function, etc. from birth.  Schools begin standardized testing in kindergarten.

There’s no reason the Clans wouldn’t do the same with their trueborn sibkin.  And if most or all of the sibkin from a particular pairing of geneparents aren’t meeting expectations for growth, have myopia, have low IQs, etc., at five years, then the Scientist Caste would rethink that pairing for the next generation.

No, it is continous- FMWC, I am Jade Falcon, Marthe's Coventry training program, and numerous other sources... Always Faithful talking about the range of sibbies Serpent took over.

WCSB is clear that “New generations are produced in this fashion every ten years, creating thousands of new warriors and adding to the ranks of the citizenry.”

I’ve seen nothing in later products that contradicts this statement about trueborn generations except to shorten them to five years.  It makes sense as some delay between generations is needed so that sibkin can mature, their development can be assessed, and the Scientist Caste can plan the next generation of geneparent pairings based on that (and other) data.

Sibkin facilities, trainers, etc. are going to be busy no matter the size and timing of trueborn generations because the Clans abhor waste.  They’re going to size those resources to match the number of sibkin.  Clans are not going to have large numbers of empty training facilities and trainers twiddling their thumbs regardless of whether the eugenics program pumps out infants every year, every five years, or every ten years.

It’s also not surprising that Serpent found sibkin with a range of ages.  Even if each generation of Jaguar trueborn has the exact same birthday, you’d still have newborn/toddler, kindergartner/elementary-age, secondary-age, and college-age sibkin with five-year centers.
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"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #465 on: 02 July 2020, 21:27:01 »
Like I said, every other source since counters that- FMWC which is what I sited- talked about how Ulric sent a selection from the sibkos between ages X and Y that would give the Wardens a trickle of replacements until their program came on line.  Marthe had sibkos of various ages fighting their Trials of Position as part of her Coventry offensive to blood her replacement troops. 

The Invasion Wolves had large and small training facilities, the size of the sibko depends on the size of the facility.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #466 on: 02 July 2020, 22:19:03 »
FMWC which is what I sited- talked about how Ulric sent a selection from the sibkos between ages X and Y

FMWC only states that Ulric sent sibkos ranging from 2 to 14 years of age.  That’s not inconsistent with generations on five-year centers.  The bulk of the sibkos at the time Ulric sent them would have been 3, 8, and 13 years of age, with a few falling just outside at 2 and 4, 7 and 9, and 12 and 14 years of age, depending on exactly where their decanting dates fell relative to the date Ulric sent them.

Quote
Marthe had sibkos of various ages fighting their Trials of Position as part of her Coventry offensive to blood her replacement troops.

I don’t know that quote, but again, trueborn generations separated by five years will still create a sibkin population with various ages at any particular point in time.

Quote
The Invasion Wolves had large and small training facilities, the size of the sibko depends on the size of the facility.

I don’t think there’s a 1:1 correlation between the size of training facilities and the size of sibkos, at least in the Wolves.  WCSB states “scientists produced 20 children per birthing from the genetic material of one pair” and that the Clan then “raised this ‘sibko’ (sibling company)”.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

truetanker

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #467 on: 03 July 2020, 10:54:57 »
Curious, how long is a " standard " gestational period? And would advanced fertility medical care have fast growth chemicals or would it be " all natural  "?

Maybe this will solve the problem of how much time was needed.

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Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #468 on: 03 July 2020, 19:06:33 »
Hey, these 5 year olds look great, let mix their genes together in our next batch!  ::)

That first review to me always seemed like it should be "medical defects" & "early learning" issues v/s are they showing signs of promise as a mechwarrior.

If a match showed to have a lot of "problems" in the first 5 years they might decide not to repeat it at 5 years & wait to see more results at 10 years.

It might also not even be an issue of repeating that exact same match but instead, does either parent get used in a different match.

For example:
If Joe Kerensky & Lisa Ward create a batch of "Sloths" (Goonies) then they don't get used again for anything.
But assuming they have normal kindergartners at the 5 year point then they are split up & paired up with Mike Connors & Amy Raddick for 2 new batches in the next run.
If on the other hand say by 10 years its a full sibko of baby ninja geniuses, then they repeat the Joe/Lisa pairing again.
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Hellraiser

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #469 on: 03 July 2020, 19:29:14 »
FMWC only states that Ulric sent sibkos ranging from 2 to 14 years of age.  That’s not inconsistent with generations on five-year centers.  The bulk of the sibkos at the time Ulric sent them would have been 3, 8, and 13 years of age, with a few falling just outside at 2 and 4, 7 and 9, and 12 and 14 years of age, depending on exactly where their decanting dates fell relative to the date Ulric sent them.
It can be consistent if you realize the "Generation" is applied to a specific pairing, not the entire sibko system.

Each "Generation" of a specific blood pairing is done no closer than 5 years.

So using my names from above.  Joe & Lisa had a batch in 3050.   But 2 years later a pairing of Ulric & Jera Carns was used to create a batch.

So that every 9 month - 1 year or so, a group from 1 creche is moved on to a sibko while the nursemaids are then free to start caring for a new batch of babies.

But you have many sets of nursemaids all over your homeworlds.

So the Joe/Lisa batch in 3050 might be from an Eden based facility.
While the Ulric/Jera 3052 pairing was done at Tranquil.

The nursemaids handle the creche for 10 years but not every creche starts at the same time.

Similar to how Basic Training is handled in the Army,  our battalion would have a different company graduate new recruits every 2-4 weeks & then start a new cycles a week or 2 after that.
The entire battalion didn't start/graduate on the same day.

Using the 20/100 figures & also Clan Wolf's "mixed sibko" system to create an example.
5 batches of 20 from 5 different pairings are born on the same day.
So we have the Joe/Lisa kids as well as 4 other sets of blood named.
For 10 years they all live in 5 separate creches on Eden.
Then at age 10 those that have survived are combined into 1 mixed sibko of those 5 different blood parents.

2 years later the Ulric/Jera pairing is born along w/ several other pairings on Eden.

Maybe a year later a batch on Strana Mechty is produced.

I don't know if the Wolves would have creches on every world but I'd assume they have training facilities on at least 2-3.
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #470 on: 03 July 2020, 22:52:15 »
And while WCSB might be interpreted that way every other source indicates its a continual process of decanting, raising, and go to training.
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