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Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!  (Read 100716 times)

Mendrugo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #930 on: 04 April 2020, 01:28:00 »
But since Cynthy’s original family name was MacGuyver, she’ll be able to use the knife, some tinfoil, half a coconut, and a small amount of ammonium nitrate to override Malvina’s ‘Mech controls and launch her into a convenient volcano.

Cynthia concurs with Sideshow Bob, though, that the (hover)car chase was entirely gratuitous.

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DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #931 on: 04 April 2020, 09:43:21 »
Yeah what an utter fizzle that would be.

It would be a bigger fizzle to let her fall to the side without any further (and interesting) development.  Chekhov's gun and all that.
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Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #932 on: 04 April 2020, 13:03:03 »
Comparing Cynthy to a stage prop seems appropriate. By the same token, she could easily be a red herring.
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GreekFire

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #933 on: 04 April 2020, 13:26:03 »
Comparing Cynthy to a stage prop seems appropriate. By the same token, she could easily be a red herring.

Or perhaps BattleTech's Gollum?
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Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #934 on: 04 April 2020, 13:33:42 »
Others above seem to suggest something closer to BT’s Grima Wormtongue
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GreekFire

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #935 on: 04 April 2020, 14:22:35 »
Others above seem to suggest something closer to BT’s Grima Wormtongue

Yeah, good call. 'Specially since Malvina calling for/doing something radical on Terra would be a pretty solid narrative parallel to Saruman scourging the Shire.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #936 on: 04 April 2020, 14:32:15 »
Grima's a villain, as is Malvina, and Malvina's torture subject is unlikely to be one.


Malvina being utterly wrong for the Clans and whatever else has nothing to with purity BTW. It has do with the fact she's wasteful, petty, vindicative, mad, stupid. Very, very much like Stefan Amaris (though to his credit, Amaris was sane for most part).
Sure, she is terrifying at the moment, but that usually doesn't form a good foundation for future empires. Gonna be a short reign, if there's even one.
She had the idiotic idea that if she loses, she nukes Hesperus II. Doesn't make much sense... especially since there's a breaking point when her opponents start throwing WMDs back at her, and i figure losing Hesperus factories would've been one for the Lyrans (and i think everyone else would've followed suit).

There is no future with Malvina, only destruction. The early Succession Wars, the Jihad, and the Wars of Reaving were the result of Malvina-like thinking. All folly, all wasteful, with nothing gained for whoever started these.
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GreekFire

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #937 on: 04 April 2020, 16:22:27 »
snip

Yep, and that's exactly why her death is guaranteed from a narrative viewpoint.
I'd also argue that her ruling the Falcons is also a guarantee that the ilClan will not be Clan Jade Falcon.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #938 on: 04 April 2020, 16:27:26 »
Yep, and that's exactly why her death is guaranteed from a narrative viewpoint.
I'd also argue that her ruling the Falcons is also a guarantee that the ilClan will not be Clan Jade Falcon.
Well, there's a chance someone deposes Malvina and the Falcons then become the IlClan. But that does seem a smidgen unlikely.
Devlin Stone is playing a kingmaker at the moment and has picked someone to ally the Republic with, and it doesn't seem likely he'd pick even traditional Falcons.
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GreekFire

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #939 on: 04 April 2020, 16:32:26 »
Devlin Stone is playing a kingmaker at the moment and has picked someone to ally the Republic with, and it doesn't seem likely he'd pick even traditional Falcons.

Really, IMO, there's only one option, and that's Alaric Whatever-his-last-name-is-at-the-moment and the Wolves.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #940 on: 04 April 2020, 16:36:58 »
Really, IMO, there's only one option, and that's Alaric Whatever-his-last-name-is-at-the-moment and the Wolves.
To be honest, i've started having slight doubts about that. I suspect there might be someone else and Alaric comes contesting this choice.
But whatever, it won't be Malvina.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #941 on: 04 April 2020, 21:56:52 »
Really, IMO, there's only one option, and that's Alaric Whatever-his-last-name-is-at-the-moment and the Wolves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if the Wolves become ilClan, Alaric's tenure as ilKhan will last approximately as long as Elias Crichell's, and then he'll be replaced swiftly and violently by the new ilKhan, Anastasia Kerensky.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #942 on: 04 April 2020, 22:03:31 »
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if the Wolves become ilClan, Alaric's tenure as ilKhan will last approximately as long as Elias Crichell's, and then he'll be replaced swiftly and violently by the new ilKhan, Anastasia Kerensky.
I'd imagine Alaric is actually smart enough to be aware of this possibility...
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DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #943 on: 05 April 2020, 10:44:01 »
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if the Wolves become ilClan, Alaric's tenure as ilKhan will last approximately as long as Elias Crichell's, and then he'll be replaced swiftly and violently by the new ilKhan, Anastasia Kerensky.

I was left with the impression that she's now loyal to him.  Besides, power never really seemed to be her goal.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #944 on: 05 April 2020, 11:55:38 »
I was left with the impression that she's now loyal to him.  Besides, power never really seemed to be her goal.
And if it were, her past with herself proved that she was not ready to handle it.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #945 on: 05 April 2020, 14:45:56 »
All this Wolf chat is, uh, fascinating and all, but maybe it belongs in the kennels.

Let’s also not do this analysis in reverse. Becoming ilClan is not contingent upon having the political temperament to reestablish the Star League or something like that. (It’s never going to happen, btw.) The front-end issue is capturing Terra, which Malvina has the sheer reckless willpower to accomplish. No doubt other clanners will simply say, doesn’t count!

Yet whatever happens next is not really the point, in a certain sense, although we can all agree that it would be unlikely to usher in a new golden age. More likely, it will be a typical moment of crisis (“she can’t be allowed to rule on Terra!”) that triggers a realignment of geo(astro?)political interests and launches a new series of wars, which is what the setting demands after all.

Furthermore, what could be more CJF than a dubious (even from viewpoints within CJF) claim to be ilClan? Chips on shoulders don’t get much bigger than that.
« Last Edit: 05 April 2020, 15:23:10 by Manchu »
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #946 on: 05 April 2020, 15:03:20 »
The early Succession Wars, the Jihad, and the Wars of Reaving were the result of Malvina-like thinking.
In other words, history demonstrates that Malvina-like thinking is the rule rather than the exception; at least according to your account.

I object to the comparison between Malvina and Amaric. Amaric was a patient schemer and a deceiver. He is the epitome of byzantine IS treachery (pardon the potential redundancy). Malvina is exactly the reverse, a hurricane of naked will; the epitome of the warrior caste’s “honor” culture finally shown for what it actually is, under the masquerade of nobility: stark and brutal force.

Battletech is built on one fundamental tension: the hypocrisy of humans killing each other “by the rules” — with the big lesson that no one ever learns for too long being, violence is unavoidable but you have to maintain boundaries. The reason that always eventually falls by the wayside is that the stakes are always too high NOT to break the rules, in the short term. Rules always favor, in the long term, those who are already powerful. The only other option is to take your toys and stalk off home, a.k.a., “the Kerensky pout.” And that guy is the legendary hero of the setting (to my endless amazement). By the logic of the setting, CJF will never be a winner and they will always whine about honor for that reason. Malvina is past that. She’s in a position to give CJF what it ostensibly wants most of all but the cost will be using so-called honor as an excuse.
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DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #947 on: 05 April 2020, 16:09:21 »
I don't see the falcons taking earth.   Stone knows the end is coming and really has the most control over deciding who's going to win by where he puts his own forces. He's not going to let the Falcons have it.

As much as I'd hate to see what would happen to the falcons afterwards, I'd still love to see Malvina throw a hissy fit and unleash nuclear armageddon on Terra.   Would be cool to see where the story goes with Terra becoming a worthless hunk of rock.
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Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #948 on: 05 April 2020, 20:45:34 »
Would be cool to see where the story goes with Terra becoming a worthless hunk of rock.
That%u2019s exactly what Terra would become, symbolically, if Malvina conquered it; I mean, regardless of her actually devastating the planet. Malvina %u201Dwinning%u201D would be so fundamentally unpalatable to Clan Society that it would have to quit the game altogether (as I said above, moving the goalposts). Through everything, the Clans have held on to the Hidden Hope myth, in one form or another, and that, and the IS equivalent myth, would take a body blow from which it probably could not recover if Malvina was able to make a serious claim that she turned out to be The Chosen One.

If Devlin really gets to decide this. the question becomes why not just hand over the keys now? Unless the Third Republic was always a shell game with the real point being that Star League is never, ever getting back together.
« Last Edit: 05 April 2020, 22:08:57 by Manchu »
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DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #949 on: 05 April 2020, 21:19:54 »
That%u2019s exactly what Terra would become, symbolically, if Malvina conquered it; I mean, regardless of her actually devastating the planet. Malvina %u201Cwinning%u201D would be so fundamentally unpalatable to Clan Society that it would have to quit the game altogether (as I said above, moving the goalposts). Through everything, the Clans have held on to the Hidden Hope myth, in one form or another, and that, and the IS equivalent myth, would take a body blow from which it probably could not recover if Malvina was able to make a serious claim that she turned out to be The Chosen One.

If Devlin really gets to decide this. the question becomes why not just hand over the keys now? Unless the Third Republic was always a shell game with the real point being that Star League is never, ever getting back together.

yeah, but only symbolically.  Maybe the other clans wouldn't want it anymore, but others would, and really, eventually the other clans will want it again too.   I want to see where the story goes with Terra completely out of the picture.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #950 on: 05 April 2020, 22:42:16 »
I'm a little late on this one vis a vis Cynthy, but the appreciator of literature in me demands to be heard.  A plot element resolving as the audience expects based on information and cues is not a "fizzle".  A story beat shouldn't have to surprise you to be considered good.  That kind of expectation is killing good writing the world over and it's incredibly aggravating to watch it happen.
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Manchu

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #951 on: 06 April 2020, 04:29:48 »
Sort of? A story can certainly be spoiled by trying to subvert the audience’s expectations at all costs but that doesn’t suddenly imply the reverse; that good writing is the most obvious delivery on the premise. To the contrary, good writing entails a sense of suspense during the movement from set up to pay off, principally as a matter of irony.

Cynthy having no role in the ultimate development of Malvina’s story would be bad writing because there would be no pay off to resolve the set up, and we’d rightly wonder why anyone bothered to introduce Cynthy in the first place. But likewise we’re dealing with bad writing if the character can have no point other than to eventually kill Malvina; in which case, we have a plot device rather than a character.

... which I think might be part of the problem. Cynthy’s just not much of a character in her own right and so we can’t easily think of anything to justify her existence other than (somehow) killing Malvina. The reason that would indeed be a fizzle is because Malvina is a well drawn character of significant narrative import (whether you like her or not) and disposing of her via Cynthy has no sense of proportion.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #952 on: 06 April 2020, 05:24:17 »
One parallel example is the telegraphed set-up of Arthur Steiner-Davion becoming Devlin Stone.  Explosion takes out Arthur, figure floating in a tank strongly implied to be Arthur and discussion of mind-wiping, known ability of Star League-era tech able to mind-wipe people and implant new personalities, known Blakist ability to do the same.  Amnesiac Devlin Stone emerges and begins to form the resistance - all indications point to him being Arthur Steiner-Davion.  Then the writers realize that everybody caught on too soon and dropped that plotline, letting all the Arthur Steiner-Davion setup fizzle out.
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GreekFire

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #953 on: 06 April 2020, 11:16:28 »
... which I think might be part of the problem. Cynthy’s just not much of a character in her own right and so we can’t easily think of anything to justify her existence other than (somehow) killing Malvina. The reason that would indeed be a fizzle is because Malvina is a well drawn character of significant narrative import (whether you like her or not) and disposing of her via Cynthy has no sense of proportion.

It's hard to give relevancy to a character who serves no military or political purpose in sourcebooks that focus nearly exclusively on those two subjects. Cynthy's a character that needs to be fleshed out in novels, but since I'm not a huge follower of that side of the fiction I'm not sure if enough has been written in the Dark Age setting to give her that kind of depth yet or not.

Then the writers realize that everybody caught on too soon and dropped that plotline, letting all the Arthur Steiner-Davion setup fizzle out.

Good point. Was it due to people catching on too quickly, though, or a conscious effort on behalf of the writers to move the narrative arc away from yet another "Steiner-Davion saves the day" story line? 
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #954 on: 07 April 2020, 14:06:28 »
Good point. Was it due to people catching on too quickly, though, or a conscious effort on behalf of the writers to move the narrative arc away from yet another "Steiner-Davion saves the day" story line?

Arthur was going to be on the other side of the Jihad if that thread had played out.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #955 on: 07 April 2020, 14:22:43 »
I kinda figured that the moment we saw him wake up in a lab and be told Natalie Portman was dead. Lemme guess: An Appolyon, Berith, or Lucifer-level MD? And a climactic duel with Victor (or with Victor present), where his identity is revealed?

I don't care if it's predictable. You do it right, it'll still be awesome. :thumbsup:


Hmmm... We never did learn his final date. Who's to say he's not pulling a Stone out there right now, sleeping until the time is right for him to lead a new generation of MDs to launch a new assault? :)
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #956 on: 13 April 2020, 20:21:33 »
Okay, fellow Falcons, a choice: Hellbringer C (LB-20X, ATM6, ERLL, assorted smaller lasers), or Hellbringer F (two LB-10X, SSRM-6, couple of ERML). To be the CO's ride for a Command Star also consisting of a Timber Wolf Pryde, Timber Wolf S, Nova Cat A, and Shadow Cat C.

The C config is a more challenging mini conversion, but I cannot help but think the F works better with the others. Or do I subscribe to the "early, glorious death in battle" newsletter?
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #957 on: 13 April 2020, 20:45:49 »
Why would you need to convert?  IWM makes a Hellbringer C.

Now, that said, I prefer the F because range on the main guns is infinitely preferable to having to close to 12 hexes with a Hellbringer's armor on purpose.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #958 on: 13 April 2020, 21:25:32 »
I love me some big guns, but I love range more.  Go with the F (ugly as it is).
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #959 on: 13 April 2020, 21:39:30 »
If you have the discipline to keep the LB-20X as a secondary gun and use the laser and ATMs as your primaries, the C actually has better range. If you think the urge to dakka it up before everything else is dry is going to be too great, go with the F.
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