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Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!  (Read 95963 times)

Vition2

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #480 on: 10 February 2016, 03:35:11 »
That still leaves Dragoons, Velites and Striker Clusters. Anyone have any theories as to what those might be?

My thoughts are they take similar roles as their historical namesakes (if they have any).

So Dragoons are medium/heavy.  Velites are fast light/mediums - a skirmish/harasser formation.  And Striker clusters are light/mediums with an emphasis on speed and firepower (these and Assault clusters are virtually interchangeable in the Falcons as far as I can tell, assaults might be every so slightly heavier).

I've noticed that in clan clusters, the assault designation takes two forms: 1) they take the assaulting role, or those of shock troops, they are fast and heavy hitters meant to find the weaknesses in an enemy formation for heavier units to take advantage of and 2) those units that are made up of assault class 'mechs.  I personally have changed my own fanon to use assault formations as the first definition and reclassify the second definition as siege clusters.

Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #481 on: 13 February 2016, 19:58:03 »
I find this thread title acceptable.

*Gets kicked out for Foxing too much.*

I Falcon so hard I vomit when I read anything post-jihad!

Weirdo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #482 on: 13 February 2016, 20:11:19 »
Have you seen how hard the Falcons are Falconing during the dark age? It's practically our happy fun time!
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Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #483 on: 13 February 2016, 20:26:49 »
Have you seen how hard the Falcons are Falconing during the dark age? It's practically our happy fun time!

HUARGH! Lol but in all seriousness, its one of the major reasons I can't get into Dark Age.

In CBT I played Delta and Gamma Galaxies with units from both at times during large scale campaigns (Ho-boy, are large scale campaigns something else when you are a Clan player! Logistics man ._. And artillery!?) but I mostly kept to the, of course, Falcon Guard's in small games or as the Dark Jade Wings cluster.

I ended up playing Delta a lot up until the Jihad kind of broke out club up, Dark Age killed it like so many other clubs! But I also liked having free form units, not needing to stick to the exact touman. Gah, I still get nostalgic about MW2 and the unnamed drill instructor calling me an idiot. Hah, good times.


Oh! I also played Jade Falcon in the W!Online league from MW4, if any of you guys are around here I was Star Captain Valaska Roshak, Colonel just before the league folded. Love to get in touch if the group is surviving.

Fletch

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #484 on: 14 February 2016, 00:20:09 »
Have you seen how hard the Falcons are Falconing during the dark age? It's practically our happy fun time!

And it's time to put the naughty kids in the corner  :)

Scotty

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #485 on: 14 February 2016, 00:54:24 »
HUARGH! Lol but in all seriousness, its one of the major reasons I can't get into Dark Age.

I'm not sure I understand the point.  Do you not like when the Falcons are being Falcons? ???  Dark Age is great for Falcon players.  We're the batshit crazy ones again. :D  It's like the Invasion all over again, except now we don't have to compete with those stupid Jags over who's the craziest.
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Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #486 on: 15 February 2016, 13:06:15 »
I'm not sure I understand the point.  Do you not like when the Falcons are being Falcons? ???  Dark Age is great for Falcon players.  We're the batshit crazy ones again. :D  It's like the Invasion all over again, except now we don't have to compete with those stupid Jags over who's the craziest.

Hah... I don't get how an old Falcon player can dig whats going on in the Dark Age. The Jade Falcons would -never- use WMD's in the way they did, they had to shoe horn that crap in like how they shoe horned WoB and such in, its utterly ridiculous, regardless what some say about the Falcons they are an extremely progressive traditionalist Clan which was revolted at the Smoke Jag's treatment of civilians, and at the nuke's that went off over the Snow Raven capitals.

They've been one of the staunchest anti-WMD and civilian casualty clans from the get-go, only briefly looking the other way when it came the Smoke Jaguars as the falcons knew they could use Osis and Showers to launch operation Revival. Even Crichell found a lot of distaste in the methods of Chistu and allowed Clan Wolf to exist, albeit as a new clan... Which he was betrayed in.

So I really don't know where you are getting Jade Falcons were ever the crazy ones, one of the most liberal Crusader clans towards civilians, officiated FreeBorn ranks all the way up to Khan (despite there not being a FreeBorn Khan, the regalia exists), the first blood named FreeBorn Khan, the most effective an actually real Clan Watch of all the clans... Not only that but they could have pulled a Steel Viper/Hells Horses/Nova Cat/Blood Spirit/Burrock/etc move during the Coventry campaign and stuck that fight out while they lost worlds to a backstriking Clan Wolf. Marthe actually went hte diplomatic route and in true Falcon Form, got shit done.


The Dark Age "material"... Yeah, yeah I read it. People cheering and that are fans of the Falcons post Jihad, I have a hard time believing they were fans of the actual Clan Jade Falcon. At this point Catalyst could kill them off and I wouldn't care, likely not even hear about it. They aren't in any way the faction they actually were or should logically be, even the Fed Suns were changed for change sake, the majority of Dark Age just, its pedantic.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #487 on: 15 February 2016, 13:17:54 »
The 2 dimensional D&D alignment axes have clear problems being applied into Battletech (and that BattleTech isn't D&D isn't even the biggest problem) but I'm about to use them because they are a frame of reference I feel most of us will have common knowledge of, even if different perceptions....

The Invasion Era Falcons were Lawful Neutral.  Staunchly traditional and sticklers for adherence to points of honor.  Being a Jade Falcon was kind of like getting to be a Paladin without having to be Good.  To use yet another cross-game analogy, I think an excellent analogue for the Jade Falcon mindset at invasion are the Iron Kingdom's Knights Exemplar.

As of the Dark Age, well that alignment has clearly shifted.  You might say as far as Chaotic Evil, but I'd stick it to Lawful Evil still.  However you define D&D's alignments, in the Dark Age it's the same Jade Falcons as before, but in their eyes "the kiddie gloves have come off".

I love analogies.  Here's yet another one: the Jade Falcons are solid Heels.  I don't follow "pro" wrestling like I did as a kid, so I can't speak to which wrestler the Falcons were like then and now, but to appreciate the Falcons you really do have to be able to appreciate rooting for a Heel.  Maybe it was less obvious in the earlier eras than it is now.


Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #488 on: 15 February 2016, 13:27:47 »
The 2 dimensional D&D alignment axes have clear problems being applied into Battletech (and that BattleTech isn't D&D isn't even the biggest problem) but I'm about to use them because they are a frame of reference I feel most of us will have common knowledge of, even if different perceptions....

The Invasion Era Falcons were Lawful Neutral.  Staunchly traditional and sticklers for adherence to points of honor.  Being a Jade Falcon was kind of like getting to be a Paladin without having to be Good.  To use yet another cross-game analogy, I think an excellent analogue for the Jade Falcon mindset at invasion are the Iron Kingdom's Knights Exemplar.

As of the Dark Age, well that alignment has clearly shifted.  You might say as far as Chaotic Evil, but I'd stick it to Lawful Evil still.  However you define D&D's alignments, in the Dark Age it's the same Jade Falcons as before, but in their eyes "the kiddie gloves have come off".

I love analogies.  Here's yet another one: the Jade Falcons are solid Heels.  I don't follow "pro" wrestling like I did as a kid, so I can't speak to which wrestler the Falcons were like then and now, but to appreciate the Falcons you really do have to be able to appreciate rooting for a Heel.  Maybe it was less obvious in the earlier eras than it is now.

Lol I am with you to the D&D and the lawful etc alignments, but pro wrestling! You do go on :P

But yeah, I can get behind the "A paladin without having to be good." The schism was just, it was more of a framing and story device, it could have hit any faction but they randomly drew Jade Falcon, the history just was disconnected because even if they went full out that would mean a large conventional assault with MAYBE orbital strikes on military targets. To go from the faith neutral paladin, to the fricken devil AKA WoB, well, just like the WoB it was another case of "add water to progress story."

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #489 on: 15 February 2016, 13:36:11 »
Wow. Tell us how you really feel.

Hah... I don't get how an old Falcon player can dig whats going on in the Dark Age. The Jade Falcons would -never- use WMD's in the way they did, they had to shoe horn that crap in like how they shoe horned WoB and such in, its utterly ridiculous, regardless what some say about the Falcons they are an extremely progressive traditionalist Clan which was revolted at the Smoke Jag's treatment of civilians, and at the nuke's that went off over the Snow Raven capitals.

In the homeworlds, there may have been some truth to this, but times have changed. I wouldn't say the Falcons were 'revolted' by the Jags treatment of their civilians, if they had been, they would have launched a trial against the Jaguars. That never happened. As for the nukes against the Raven capitals... it was just one when the Wolverines did the deed, everyone was 'revolted' not just the Falcons.

They've been one of the staunchest anti-WMD and civilian casualty clans from the get-go, only briefly looking the other way when it came the Smoke Jaguars as the falcons knew they could use Osis and Showers to launch operation Revival. Even Crichell found a lot of distaste in the methods of Chistu and allowed Clan Wolf to exist, albeit as a new clan... Which he was betrayed in.

I've seen no evidence that the Falcon's were the 'staunchest anti-WMD' Clans. They followed Kerensky's rules, period. Crichell's only problem with Chistu was that Chistu wanted to take Crichell's place. He applauded his methods.

So I really don't know where you are getting Jade Falcons were ever the crazy ones, one of the most liberal Crusader clans towards civilians, officiated FreeBorn ranks all the way up to Khan (despite there not being a FreeBorn Khan, the regalia exists), the first blood named FreeBorn Khan, the most effective an actually real Clan Watch of all the clans... Not only that but they could have pulled a Steel Viper/Hells Horses/Nova Cat/Blood Spirit/Burrock/etc move during the Coventry campaign and stuck that fight out while they lost worlds to a backstriking Clan Wolf. Marthe actually went hte diplomatic route and in true Falcon Form, got shit done.

This is very confused. True, the Falcon's were never really the 'crazy ones.' The Falcons largely ignored their civilians, letting their merchants prosper, so I suppose that could be 'liberal.' Freeborns were reluctantly allowed into the touman in small numbers. Diana Pryde is the only known freeborn Falcon to win a bloodname, and she never moved beyond Star Colonel. Agreed, they do have the most effective Watch. Marthe pulled back because she wanted to preserve the touman, but had virtually any of her subordinates been in charge, including Samantha Clees, Coventry would have been a disaster.

The Dark Age "material"... Yeah, yeah I read it. People cheering and that are fans of the Falcons post Jihad, I have a hard time believing they were fans of the actual Clan Jade Falcon. At this point Catalyst could kill them off and I wouldn't care, likely not even hear about it. They aren't in any way the faction they actually were or should logically be, even the Fed Suns were changed for change sake, the majority of Dark Age just, its pedantic.

You know, people worked hard on that "material" you so casually put down. Many fans seem to be on board with the Falcon's current path. The more progressive fans are waiting for Malvina's fall, so that the Clan can resume it's more traditional role. Things change. We don't always like said change. If you don't approve of the new, 'pedantic (really? overly meticulous?)' direction of the setting, don't buy the newer products and play in your own, homegrown AU.

But yeah, I can get behind the "A paladin without having to be good." The schism was just, it was more of a framing and story device, it could have hit any faction but they randomly drew Jade Falcon, the history just was disconnected because even if they went full out that would mean a large conventional assault with MAYBE orbital strikes on military targets. To go from the faith neutral paladin, to the fricken devil AKA WoB, well, just like the WoB it was another case of "add water to progress story."

Here's the problem. The most logical outcome of the Clan system IS a monster such as Malvina. The Falcon's just got there first. History plays a role too. The Crusader beliefs can reasonably lead to the Mongol beliefs espoused by Malvina. But the thing to remember is that Marthe Pryde as Khan was an anomaly, not the rule.

But ultimately, yes, somebody has to be the 'bad guy.'
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Zweihart

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #490 on: 15 February 2016, 13:51:07 »
Reading the last couple posts has left me a bit confused at the opposed opinions on what the proper Falcon behavior is supposed. Jade Falcons have been becoming an increasingly important part of the stuff I've been writing on the side, and I'd like to get their portrayal as "right" as possible, but it's a bit difficult if people disagree on what direction the right portrayal is supposed to take.
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Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #491 on: 15 February 2016, 14:08:26 »
Wow. Tell us how you really feel.

In the homeworlds, there may have been some truth to this, but times have changed. I wouldn't say the Falcons were 'revolted' by the Jags treatment of their civilians, if they had been, they would have launched a trial against the Jaguars. That never happened. As for the nukes against the Raven capitals... it was just one when the Wolverines did the deed, everyone was 'revolted' not just the Falcons.

I've seen no evidence that the Falcon's were the 'staunchest anti-WMD' Clans. They followed Kerensky's rules, period. Crichell's only problem with Chistu was that Chistu wanted to take Crichell's place. He applauded his methods.

This is very confused. True, the Falcon's were never really the 'crazy ones.' The Falcons largely ignored their civilians, letting their merchants prosper, so I suppose that could be 'liberal.' Freeborns were reluctantly allowed into the touman in small numbers. Diana Pryde is the only known freeborn Falcon to win a bloodname, and she never moved beyond Star Colonel. Agreed, they do have the most effective Watch. Marthe pulled back because she wanted to preserve the touman, but had virtually any of her subordinates been in charge, including Samantha Clees, Coventry would have been a disaster.

You know, people worked hard on that "material" you so casually put down. Many fans seem to be on board with the Falcon's current path. The more progressive fans are waiting for Malvina's fall, so that the Clan can resume it's more traditional role. Things change. We don't always like said change. If you don't approve of the new, 'pedantic (really? overly meticulous?)' direction of the setting, don't buy the newer products and play in your own, homegrown AU.

Here's the problem. The most logical outcome of the Clan system IS a monster such as Malvina. The Falcon's just got there first. History plays a role too. The Crusader beliefs can reasonably lead to the Mongol beliefs espoused by Malvina. But the thing to remember is that Marthe Pryde as Khan was an anomaly, not the rule.

But ultimately, yes, somebody has to be the 'bad guy.'

The Falcons were actually one of the Clans who voted on either Smoke Jaguar's annihilation or absorption following the Londerholm Revolt, but unfortunately for all of the Clan's futures they ended up turning the issue around and using it offensively against all the other clans which lead to ALL parties to back down from that including Coyote and Diamond Shark. It wasn't just Jade Falcon though, it was nearly the majority of all Clans in the Grand Council, but again, even Diamond Shark realized setting a precedence for a clan to interrupt another clans treatment of their civilians and every day operation could be disastrous for their way of life.

They weren't the staunchest, but they were up there in the list of traditionalists in which they were eschewed. WMD's have a tendency to obliterate infrastructure and cause horrendous civilian lives, which put them on the top of the list seeing how careful and marked their combat was in and around civilians centers. Chrichell applauded his effort and the fact he didn't see it coming from Chistu, he figured him rather a lout and ineffective at politics... To see him actually trying these machinations, well, he could have covered it up and continued the dance and likely won, it could have ended their most hated rival too. But he didn't, he actually gave Wolf a chance.

I'm not sure that Samantha Clees, personally, would have continued that campaign either. She was an amazingly intelligent woman who was markedly exceptional at noticing when a situation was ugly and when it was a benefit to carry on. There were never any examples (few examples of her there may be) being rash or hot headed, and all of the op's she lead tended to be resoundingly successful.

I am not really sold on how hard people worked on the material... You know the gap was simply them wiping a clean slate in order to not involve all previous lore? They went the easiest route which really was something that caused... Well, pun intended, the dark age of battletech lol. To wit, pedantic as trying, and just focused on all these new sudden micro stories etc which again were all completely brand new as they white washed everything people had come to love previously and the new entities of this universe are basically sock pockets of their former selves. So yes, people worked hard, but sometimes you can work very hard on a failure.


I'm not sold, on this though. Jade Falcon, as well as several other Clan's, actually have had a history of very level headed and rational Khans. The system COULD breed a mongol like situation, but I mean... Hasn't every other one? The situation of Malvina is just a joke, in such a progressive traditionalist clan, someone would have challenged her... But there were NO takers. The entire clan just seemed okay with what was going on. I figure the Clan Council meeting might have been a little something like;

"Oh hey Malvina, yeah I agree we have over the years showed this mindset and behavior which should be ingrained on us completely. Oh you want to nuke everything and have the entirety of our civilization just completely 180, causing one of the greatest losses of life outside of all FOUR succession wars combined, or the Jihad? I mean, it goes completely against all of our lore, backstory, everything that has been established to this point but... I guess if it will give WizKids a framing and plot device."

It was part of the bad writing Dark Age has been legendary for, especially in its start up period and WizKids just... Holy crap period. I heard Catalyst is doing some interesting things, but I mean, as an old time fan and reader of BattleTech, I can't buy Dark Age as being in the same universe. Especially Falcons, they went from Hazen, Chrichell, Pryde, to Jerome Blake. With all the Clans that previously through Clan Invasion-Jihad/Civil war having Khans that were apparently the anomaly according to you... To suddenly getting the rare and one off norm?

Reading the last couple posts has left me a bit confused at the opposed opinions on what the proper Falcon behavior is supposed. Jade Falcons have been becoming an increasingly important part of the stuff I've been writing on the side, and I'd like to get their portrayal as "right" as possible, but it's a bit difficult if people disagree on what direction the right portrayal is supposed to take.

As much as I would like the old Falcon lore to be accurate to, you know, today... Jaim Magnus' etc idea of what the falcons have become is accurate. They are extremely vicious, murderous, worse than Smoke Jaguar ever could have been in their history. They are lower than Widowmaker now, and the reasons were simply they needed a bad guy, and since they virtually erased all previous lore and what it meant/mattered they could use anyone. Falcons drew the straw because Wolf has usually been the favored child, Ghost Bears are the Dominion, and Snow Raven localized too.

Zweihart

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #492 on: 15 February 2016, 14:15:57 »
That behavior is only characteristic of Dark Age Falcons though, if I'm following correctly, no? The stuff I'm writing spans roughly between 3040 to 3070 currently, with plans to expend to the 3080s, but my knowledge of the Jihad and subsequent eras is lacking, so I'll be focusing most of my efforts on the first segment and Pre-Jihad Falcons will be featured for the most part. That would be the "Old Lore" you mention, right?
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Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #493 on: 15 February 2016, 14:42:18 »
That behavior is only characteristic of Dark Age Falcons though, if I'm following correctly, no? The stuff I'm writing spans roughly between 3040 to 3070 currently, with plans to expend to the 3080s, but my knowledge of the Jihad and subsequent eras is lacking, so I'll be focusing most of my efforts on the first segment and Pre-Jihad Falcons will be featured for the most part. That would be the "Old Lore" you mention, right?

Essentially yes, during your time period from 3040-3058 a fairly pragmatic and forward thinking Crichell was in charge. His biggest mistakes were in his alliance with Smoke Jaguar, which was done out of a mutual respect (but not friendship) with then ilKhan Showers. This was an alliance he made to;

  • Start the invasion
  • Secure a Spot
  • Screw with Clan Wolf

The alliance had backfired minorly from time to time, and lead to his eventual death when he trusted a one Vlad Ward of Clan Wolf. After this, in 3058 era, Khan Marthe Pryde took control of Jade Falcon. She is pretty much almost as amazing as Khan Elizabeth Hazen. She progressed with the progressive ideals that Jade Falcon's Chrichell had dabbled with and really pulled the Clan forward into a new age of accepting Freeborns. They'd eventually go on to act with a diplomatic and very pragmatic approach with the InnerSphere, despite two incursions, they came to one of the most hilarious compromises outside of Clan Ghost Bear playing a football match to decide the fate of an entire planet.

Markedly the Clan before Marthe has been rather decent to their civilians, they let them alone at their own devices and there's even hints to inter caste judicial systems for the lower castes. The Falcon bankers have A LOT of power in the clan, the scientists... Were, pretty respected and powerful, long story on that one though. The labor caste basically just live their lives, get up, breakfast, go to work, go chill out, rinse repeat. Its still structured in the highly competitive atmosphere of a Clan, but basically it was an improvement on the standard of living for quite a few of the planets they hold in their occupation zone.

The Falcons generally have been one of the least kill civilian happy Clans, and treat their bondsmen with due respect. The Crazyness really starts Dark Age era, but the Falcons are absolutely famous for being political to the point they might not be considered traditionalists.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #494 on: 15 February 2016, 15:39:10 »
I bet if you sold a work of fiction in 1913 Germany that detailed exactly all the actions of their country in just 30 years they would laugh at such implausibility.


Valaska

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #495 on: 15 February 2016, 17:34:38 »
I bet if you sold a work of fiction in 1913 Germany that detailed exactly all the actions of their country in just 30 years they would laugh at such implausibility.

I'm not all together sure about that. The Nazi thing may have been a twist, but the country knew war was coming, the signs were there since the 1880's as the situation kept declining. They were... Pretty anti-semitic as a culture before Adolf Hitler showed up so you would have actually had a good deal of them actually looking at it and going; "Hmmm..." The United States saw WWII coming a long way off when they told Britain and France to "Don't do it!" during the treaty of Versailles. They literally stated it could drive Germany to lash out, or plunge the region into undue poverty and discourse if they charged the exorbitant reparations they had planned, which built animosity of the Germans and Austrians etc.

And as much as Germans and we who are heavily of German descent (family is 3rd Generation Canadian from German, bred into another German family from Odessa during the Russians ethnic cleansing of our people and my family quite a few years ago) sometimes play off or divert the focus... Hitler's idea's struck a cord with some fundamental failings that existed in German society. Again, antisemitism was fairly well spread and our people had been exceedingly warlike... Also committed a few atrocities in the past.

So as much as Germany has radically changed and healed since 1945, it wasn't exactly coming out of left field. It wasn't a sure thing, and many in Germany would have eschewed such a manifesto, but there were a lot who were of mind already... The Falcons on the other hand were staunchly against the killing of civilians and WMD's, to radically shift like that was something against their core tenants and foundations.

DarkSpade

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #496 on: 15 February 2016, 19:37:50 »
Every time I see someone complain about the direction the fiction is taking making no sense, I'm reminded of this very old post. 

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=31591.0
Space Marines are guys who look at a chainsaw and think, “That should be balanced for parrying.”

Maelwys

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #497 on: 15 February 2016, 21:16:07 »
One thing you have to understand about Malvina is that she's the ultimate expression of Might Makes Right. And the Clans are all about Might Makes Right. Don't like the work assignments? Challenge your superior to a fight, and if you beat him up enough, you win and you're right and the assignments change. Don't like your Star Commander's leadership? Fight him, and if you win, you're in charge. Want a factory or piece of land or something? Challenge the owners to a fight, and if you win, its yours.

Malvina is the ultimate expression of the Clan ideal, "Might is Right." If Clanners don't like what she's doing, then they have the right to try to stop her. If they can, then she's wrong and they're right. But so far she wins and thus, she's Right. Her direction is the Clan's direction.

And lets face it, trying to argue that the 3145 Falcons are wrong because it doesn't match with the 3050 fluff of them is pretty hinky in the first place. They've gone through the Jihad, been ejected from the Homeworlds due to the War of Reaving and the Society conflict and the enforced peace of Stone. That's 20 generations of change that the Falcons have gone through.

Bren

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #498 on: 15 February 2016, 21:21:14 »
Every time I see someone complain about the direction the fiction is taking making no sense, I'm reminded of this very old post. 

I'm sure if there was a large market for a 400-page volume 'Malvina Hazen and the Rise of the Mongol Doctrine in Clan Jade Falcon' there are some historically-minded writers at Catalyst that would love to tackle it.

But we gotta get to the action. And one thing Malvina does is bring the action.

The situation of Malvina is just a joke, in such a progressive traditionalist clan, someone would have challenged her... But there were NO takers. The entire clan just seemed okay with what was going on.

I think you should read the Falcon Dark Age books again.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #499 on: 15 February 2016, 21:33:21 »
I also see the Mongol doctrine as a rebound from generations of trying to impose Clan Warrior ethics on Spheroids who simply don't play by those rules. It's very much an "All right, no mor mister nice Clanner!" response - they tried being honorable. Now, you get one chance; after that, the Mongols are entirely happy to accept the peace of ashes.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #500 on: 15 February 2016, 21:38:55 »
Valaska, there are so many incorrect things about what you're saying, I don't even know where to start. Instead I'll simply say this: perhaps instead of relying on second- or third-hand accounts of the Jihad and Dark Age material, you could try actually reading it yourself so that you understand the series of events that led to the Mongols and Malvina's rise (check out stuff like the novels Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, along with the various Jihad sourebooks and 3145 material). Who knows? You might even like it. As it stands, though, you're like a guy that blunders into a conversation about a TV show you've never watched, but have heard other people talk shit about, and declaring that it's dumb and unbelievable.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #501 on: 15 February 2016, 21:49:26 »
I also see the Mongol doctrine as a rebound from generations of trying to impose Clan Warrior ethics on Spheroids who simply don't play by those rules. It's very much an "All right, no mor mister nice Clanner!" response - they tried being honorable. Now, you get one chance; after that, the Mongols are entirely happy to accept the peace of ashes.

I had this exact realization while reading the books and distinctly recall the smile that spread across my face. All those years of people—in universe and out—prodding and laughing at the dumb Falcons, their stupid honour code, their antiquated rules. Like a cat laughing at a chained-up dog.

... then Malvina comes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bojp4Q1vvRg

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #502 on: 15 February 2016, 22:35:32 »
Valaska, there are so many incorrect things about what you're saying, I don't even know where to start. Instead I'll simply say this: perhaps instead of relying on second- or third-hand accounts of the Jihad and Dark Age material, you could try actually reading it yourself so that you understand the series of events that led to the Mongols and Malvina's rise (check out stuff like the novels Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, along with the various Jihad sourebooks and 3145 material). Who knows? You might even like it. As it stands, though, you're like a guy that blunders into a conversation about a TV show you've never watched, but have heard other people talk shit about, and declaring that it's dumb and unbelievable.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #503 on: 15 February 2016, 23:29:23 »
The Clan system regularly creates these monsters. The Wolves had Marcos Radick, who was butchering civilians throughout Revival under Ulric's watch, and afterwards under the command of the two Spheroid Wolf Khans. Yet politics within the Wolf Clan blocked him from gaining power, so he killed dozens instead of thousands or tens of thousands. But when someone like Brett Andrews or Malvina Hazen actually do gain power...

And lets remember that as brilliant as Marthe Pryde was about keeping her warriors directed at external threats instead of fighting among themselves, she still ordered mass killings of lower caste civilians during the Society uprising in the 3070s.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #504 on: 16 February 2016, 00:05:09 »
Valaska, there are so many incorrect things about what you're saying, I don't even know where to start. Instead I'll simply say this: perhaps instead of relying on second- or third-hand accounts of the Jihad and Dark Age material, you could try actually reading it yourself so that you understand the series of events that led to the Mongols and Malvina's rise (check out stuff like the novels Flight of the Falcon and A Rending of Falcons, along with the various Jihad sourebooks and 3145 material). Who knows? You might even like it. As it stands, though, you're like a guy that blunders into a conversation about a TV show you've never watched, but have heard other people talk shit about, and declaring that it's dumb and unbelievable.

I've actually read a couple TRO's and a few of the first novels from Dark Age, and I fail to see where I am "so full of incorrect things." I mean, surely you could find some starting point or even a mid way point to pick apart what I'm saying? I've not touched the later stuff, true enough, but I'm not referring to the later stuff trying to addend or make sense out of the just unfathomable beginning that the Dark Ages took. So no, I've watched the show, I just understood how hard they shoe-horned a villain out of a non-villain because... Hey, clean slate, and we gotta sell click tech.

The Clan system regularly creates these monsters. The Wolves had Marcos Radick, who was butchering civilians throughout Revival under Ulric's watch, and afterwards under the command of the two Spheroid Wolf Khans. Yet politics within the Wolf Clan blocked him from gaining power, so he killed dozens instead of thousands or tens of thousands. But when someone like Brett Andrews or Malvina Hazen actually do gain power...

And lets remember that as brilliant as Marthe Pryde was about keeping her warriors directed at external threats instead of fighting among themselves, she still ordered mass killings of lower caste civilians during the Society uprising in the 3070s.
0

The Clan system puts a few of these out, but not any more "regularly" than the InnerSphere, and exactly, clan politics tend to keep these people WAY down. Marthe Pride didn't mass kill lower caste civilians, they killed Society agents. There were no mechants, and no civilians caught in the killings, Kael Pershaw constructed and ran the MOST efficient watch and arguably best intelligence agency in BattleTech, they knew who their targets were and they carried it out with extreme, quiet efficiency. Nobody even had an idea what was happening, most the deaths seemed like accidents. The worst she did was order the deaths of a few sphere scientists who had extensive contact with the society, who almost always turned out to be a part of or connected to the society.

This wasn't a small tiny little infection of 2-3 scientists, it was nearly the entire scientist caste in Jade Falcon took advantage of the general freedom and hand off approach the Falcons took, other than directing what things to research, they never bothered themselves with the how, when etc. The Society flourished amazingly well in this atmosphere, almost more than any other Clan.

I'm sure if there was a large market for a 400-page volume 'Malvina Hazen and the Rise of the Mongol Doctrine in Clan Jade Falcon' there are some historically-minded writers at Catalyst that would love to tackle it.

But we gotta get to the action. And one thing Malvina does is bring the action.

I think you should read the Falcon Dark Age books again.

If the Dark Age novels have been re-written to be better quality... Sure I'll give them a shot. If not, I'm going to stick with BattleTech novels rather MechWarrior novels. I already dipped my toes into the Dark Age and like most fans, the water was pretty frigid and too shallow for me :<... From what I have heard though is that Catalyst are markedly improving the writing and that they are getting back to the quality of the older books. In honesty, I might pick up the ilClan book and give the lore a chance from that point onwards... But reading Ghost War, Call to Arms, then... Flight of the Falcon... And finally Target of Opportunity...

I love Blaine Lee Pardoe, without a doubt my favorite BattleTech Writer. I really, really love his writing. I'm just going to say, I'm going to give these new novels a chance, but I'm not reading another friggen book from Dark Ages, there is absolutely no chance. I read up on the summaries and such from Sarna and I hear a few of my old time BattleTech friends complain about each one they read and basically say how they wasted money on it and they won't do it again (they always do lol) so I dunno. Catalyst is a pretty cool company, so I am thinking they might be able to up the quality, even if at this point its impossible to white was or fix the mistakes of the past.

Every time I see someone complain about the direction the fiction is taking making no sense, I'm reminded of this very old post. 

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=31591.0


Cute.

One thing you have to understand about Malvina is that she's the ultimate expression of Might Makes Right. And the Clans are all about Might Makes Right. Don't like the work assignments? Challenge your superior to a fight, and if you beat him up enough, you win and you're right and the assignments change. Don't like your Star Commander's leadership? Fight him, and if you win, you're in charge. Want a factory or piece of land or something? Challenge the owners to a fight, and if you win, its yours.

Malvina is the ultimate expression of the Clan ideal, "Might is Right." If Clanners don't like what she's doing, then they have the right to try to stop her. If they can, then she's wrong and they're right. But so far she wins and thus, she's Right. Her direction is the Clan's direction.

And lets face it, trying to argue that the 3145 Falcons are wrong because it doesn't match with the 3050 fluff of them is pretty hinky in the first place. They've gone through the Jihad, been ejected from the Homeworlds due to the War of Reaving and the Society conflict and the enforced peace of Stone. That's 20 generations of change that the Falcons have gone through.

See, I can get what you are saying it has logic and such in a way none of these other arguments have... But essentially it is just a plot armor to justify the means. The Clan was completely opposite what they're doing now, the trials should have been darn near endless, there was precedence before for a Khan being trialed so many times they got removed simply due to attrition because they were offending the majority.

I'm not saying the 3050, I'm saying the 3080 lore of them... Its a good gap of time, I'll grant you that, and they've been gone from the Clan HomeWorlds but largely by choice. They weren't very bothered moving to the sphere and from what I read they weren't any bothered by their ejection now either. Time can change things, but there were a lot of factions that were already on the kusp of doing what the Falcons did, and much more likely to have done so. Kurita for instance, or the now completely bat nuts insane Federated Suns.

But I do get what you are saying, its a long time, things can happen.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #505 on: 16 February 2016, 00:33:29 »
Malvina isn't fighting a trial every thirty minutes because after she brutally killed the former Khan in a trial she systematically purged the entire Falcon touman of disloyal Warriors or those she thought would revolt or trial against her.

She is not stupid.  She's ruthless, cruel, intelligent, well-equipped, and very, very angry.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #506 on: 16 February 2016, 01:16:27 »
Marthe Pride didn't mass kill lower caste civilians, they killed Society agents.

There were ... no civilians caught in the killings ...

The worst she did was order the deaths of a few sphere scientists who had extensive contact with the society, who almost always turned out to be a part of or connected to the society.

Did you ever read Wars of Reaving?

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #507 on: 16 February 2016, 02:35:28 »
"All right, no mor mister nice Clanner!"

I read that in a Daffy Duck voice ... seams appropriate for a bird thread.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #508 on: 16 February 2016, 02:43:19 »
Did you ever read Wars of Reaving?

I did, they were extremely targeted and the Scientists were targeted, not laborers or Merchants. The scienstists were almost all patsies to Etienne a- wait I already explained this... Why am I re-explaining ._.

Malvina isn't fighting a trial every thirty minutes because after she brutally killed the former Khan in a trial she systematically purged the entire Falcon touman of disloyal Warriors or those she thought would revolt or trial against her.

She is not stupid.  She's ruthless, cruel, intelligent, well-equipped, and very, very angry.

Way I remember it she won in a mech duel, not exactly brutal just status quo, in a random trial she called which initiated a small civil war within the clan, which for some reason stood. I don't remember the language of the trial but it was just a randomly made up word from what I remember, with very little in the way of precedence, even though there were multiple trials she could have evoked.

I don't remember her culling the other side or possible dissenters, after she brought down Jana Pryde. Regardless, the Mongol movement started before she was a Khan even, before she was able to start infecting a clan... She killed a few thousand civilians, just normal laborer caste, something Marthe or ANY OTHER Jade Falcon Khan had -never- done and was outright considered a crime in any Clan save Smoke Jaguar. Remember she was just a commander or captain at the time, the only thing that protected her from that instance was plot armor.

I'm not 100% on anything after their first book but I've kept some tabs on the situation. She got away with murder, outright massacre... Regardless any "movement" that's just, not possible within a clan that at that time was majority progressive traditionalist, Jana Pryde could have ordered her dead then and there.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #509 on: 16 February 2016, 03:09:00 »
Sorry Valaska I must agree with Kojak -  it's obvious that you either haven't read the books in question, have forgotten all the pertinent information or are distorting in your head what was written in the books.

(Wars of Reaving, Flight of the Falcon, Blood of the Isle, Rending of Falcons, Bonfire of Worlds, Field Manual 3145)

 

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