Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[Angrii]

LOL Fire Mandrill.


Sorry for the pivot but I actually do have a question. As an RPG game type character I'm working on a Bloodnamed Sainze pilot who is taken bondsman by another Clan, regained warrior status and is serving the new Clan. He's not as prickly or as uncooperative as the Mandrills are generally. He's more cooperative, accepted.

The interesting twist is this guy does not commit Seppuku, which if you look it up is a big deal. Sainze warriors taken who commit Seppuku may still see their genetic legacy put to use. Sainze warriors also know they will never be accepted back.

I'm pondering a couple things.

1. Would he be treated by his new Clan any differently that another Bloodnamed bondsman-turned warrior in his new Clan?
2. I'm looking for creative plot ideas as to why he would chose to this path, knowing it meant he would be shunned by Kindraa Sainze for doing so, and that despite having a Bloodname, his genetic material would never be used. Like an unbloodnamed warrior, his line would end with him. So what are some good motivations for why he would do this?

We're talking pre-Wars of Reaving here, if that distinction matters.

1. This, I think, largely depends on which clan adopts him. In any case, there may be some wariness at first, based on the Mandrills' belligerent reputation. But if he serves faithfully and demonstrates his willingness to work with his new clan that should do much to smooth things over.

2. Perhaps he formed a close personal relationship with the ilChi from Clan Blood Spirit and was gradually won over to their notion of cooperation and unity. I'm thinking warden leanings would also make sense; having him feel marginalized amongst his Crusader leaning trothkin might be adequate motivation to sacrifice personal glory in pursuit of a higher calling (serving the Clans and their mission, rather than just Kindraa Sainze and the Fire Mandrills).

[CJC070]

1. If he acted with honour and treated his victor with respect that could go a long way.

2. There are those that disagree with their Khans decisions.  He may find a home among with a Warden Clan.  Depending on who captured him (CHH or CGB) he may take the risk and earn a new bloodname with his new clan.

[Takiro]

Hmm, a Sainze always struck me as a Clan Kurita type. Perhaps he alone is entrusted with a scared duty or mission that must be fulfilled. I've speculated that Raymond Sainze was always loyal to the Draconis Combine in spite of his capture by the SLDF and while serving Kerensky had a super-secret mission to keep an eye on him. This may not have been spelled out but rather an evolution of circumstances. Think of it a samurai or his descendant generations later returning to the Coordinator with their honor intact. What form that would take either as an in-person report similar to the House Kurita SB where a dead soldier debriefs than dies having done his duty. With such a grandiose act as a mission perhaps seppuku would not be an option.

Alternatively, the warrior's genetic legacy maybe so valued that either his Kindraa or the Clan who captured him may not be willing to so easily foresake his bloodright. In this case a war could erupt over said warrior which could even involve other Kindraa or the Fire Mandrill Clan as a whole.

[WONC]

A lot of good answers, but I still want to add mine.  ;)

I think his treatment would vary depending on the Clan. The Blood Spirits, Diamond Sharks, Cloud Cobras, and maybe the Ice Hellions would probably treat him best right off the bat. The rest of the Clans would definitely keep an eye on him, because Crazy Flame Monkey reputation is a stigma that doesn't wash off easy. The only Clans that I think would treat him as an actual pariah are the Hell's Horses and Coyotes. There's just not much love lost there, though if he endured the special attention he'd get as a bondsman, I'm sure he'd be fine in the end.

As for motivation, never underestimate the power of good old personal hubris. He's a Bloodnamed warrior, he's been taken by another Clan, the best and only way he gets special exemption from his home Kindraa is if he proves how badass he is. Claw his way up the ranks. Build his codex through victory after victory. Take risks that his new Clansmates are hesitant to take. Build alliances with others, bringing them along with him as he rises. Eventually, the Sainzes will take note. How can they not? Maybe it takes a generation longer than normal for them to do so, but eventually our dear Bloodnamed bondsman's genetics will be used to further improve the Kindraa. It would be wasteful not to. Bottom line: for his immortality to be ensured in future decanted warriors (Fire Mandrill or not), he's got to be the most adaptable, ambitious, and clever Sainze warrior we've ever seen.

[Alan Grant]

Good answers, and I'm happy to keep hearing more if anyone has anything.

If it helps, he would be a bondsman then new warrior in Clan Ghost Bear, in the 3040s. But as a character being portrayed, it's now in the 3050s and he's been a warrior in his new Clan for a while. He's a Star Captain and Chief Engineer aboard a warship, effectively the third in command. He's proven his worth and value many times. He's cultivated a lot of engineering expertise his Clan appreciates. He speaks some Japanese and so he has also been useful as a translator in interactions with the Combine and former Combine citizens now living in the Ghost Bear OZ. Some of the Combine's rituals also make more sense to him than they do to some others, so he's been useful as an advisor/mediator/translator in some situations. He's probably at the apex of his career. The Clan is happy to keep him where he is, and others with names like Jorgensson and Tseng are being promoted over and above him for the obvious reasons.

This is still a work in progress. The vision I have had in my head, is he's comfortable in his new Clan, but he still carries some baggage, knowing his genetic legacy will not be used and that he's practically exiled from his Bloodname House in every meaningful way. He's reaping the benefits of keeping his career going longer, and being a member of the Ghost Bear Clan Council, but that's about the only Bloodname "perks" he is receiving.

It's put him in a weird, unique place as a Clan warrior. He's gotten kind of philosophical about it. Meaning of life without genetic offspring. How to live and thrive without the support offered by a Bloodname House. It has given him a unique perspective on some things. So, he's regarded as somewhat odd. Warriors he serves with want to compare him to a Nova Cat mystic or Cloud Cobra cloister member but he's neither of those things.

I'm still working on WHY he chose not to commit Seppuku all those years ago. Like that was his first instinct, he was prepared to go through with it, but someone, perhaps his bondholder, tries and tries to convince him not to, and eventually he decides not to go through with it. I'm still trying to figure out what it was that got through to him. I want it to be something very good, and surprising and not what people might expect.

You all have given me some good thoughts on that front.

[Sjhernan3060]

Mandrills were noted as feuding with the jags do we have any details on major battles or planets of contention?

[WONC]

Nothing specific that I can immediately recall, but there is some fluff about how the Mandrills would occasionally raid Huntress to test the Jags. If I'm remembering correctly, of course. I'll have to go through a book or two later, because now you've got me actually curious.

[Alan Grant]

FM: Crusader Clans page 42. Says the Mandrills various Kindraa began challenging the Smoke Jaguars on Atreus after the rout of their forces by the Inner Sphere. Then as of Warriors of Kerensky it says the Mandrills recently expanded their Atreus holdings.

We also see the Mattila-Carrols take Pahn City on Huntress after the Jaguars are gone. Of course at that time all the other Clans were gobbling up pieces of Huntress.

So I think in terms of same-planet neighbors, it sounds like they shared territory on Atreus.

Warriors of Kerensky says the Jaguars earned enemy status because of their constant raiding. That makes it sound like the Jaguars could have been showing up at any Mandrill enclave on any world and declaring Trials, and the Mandrills were reciprocating. In addition to Atreus.

The Mandrills never gained a lot of territory beyond the enclaves they held early in their history. When they did venture out to engage in Trials of Possession it was often for other things, resources, genetic legacies. They were so small and had such a limited touman (as a whole and per Kindraa) that expanding their territory a great deal was problematic.

The other pieces of the puzzle is that I don't think we know of all the territory held by the Jaguars before they were gone. So some of the other worlds where the Mandrills have a presence, might have also had a Jaguar presence at some point and those would have been focal points as well.

But I feel pretty confident saying they probably feuded at Atreus a lot.

[Sjhernan3060]

FM: Crusader Clans page 42. Says the Mandrills various Kindraa began challenging the Smoke Jaguars on Atreus after the rout of their forces by the Inner Sphere. Then as of Warriors of Kerensky it says the Mandrills recently expanded their Atreus holdings.

We also see the Mattila-Carrols take Pahn City on Huntress after the Jaguars are gone. Of course at that time all the other Clans were gobbling up pieces of Huntress.

So I think in terms of same-planet neighbors, it sounds like they shared territory on Atreus.

Warriors of Kerensky says the Jaguars earned enemy status because of their constant raiding. That makes it sound like the Jaguars could have been showing up at any Mandrill enclave on any world and declaring Trials, and the Mandrills were reciprocating. In addition to Atreus.

The Mandrills never gained a lot of territory beyond the enclaves they held early in their history. When they did venture out to engage in Trials of Possession it was often for other things, resources, genetic legacies. They were so small and had such a limited touman (as a whole and per Kindraa) that expanding their territory a great deal was problematic.

The other pieces of the puzzle is that I don't think we know of all the territory held by the Jaguars before they were gone. So some of the other worlds where the Mandrills have a presence, might have also had a Jaguar presence at some point and those would have been focal points as well.

But I feel pretty confident saying they probably feuded at Atreus a lot.

That makes alot of sense and I can see both clans  being keen to fight another

[tassa_kay]

But I feel pretty confident saying they probably feuded at Atreus a lot.

Two of the most aggressively combative Clans feuding where their territories touch? I DON'T BELIEVE IT!  ;D

[Sjhernan3060]

Two of the most aggressively combative Clans feuding where their territories touch? I DON'T BELIEVE IT!  ;D

Lol right?! Regarding Atreus what if any big prizes where there to fight for on that world?

[tassa_kay]

Lol right?! Regarding Atreus what if any big prizes where there to fight for on that world?

Well, it has two factories: one that produces the Jagatai and Kirghiz, and one that produces the Predator. I know the Mandrills controlled the Predator facility and I think they took control of the aerospace factory after the fall of the Jaguars.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

So the Spartan C is pretty good: overheats like crazy on an Alpha where everything connects but solid machine. Should go well with any Gargoyles, Executioners, and other similar mechs.

[Sjhernan3060]

So the Spartan C is pretty good: overheats like crazy on an Alpha where everything connects but solid machine. Should go well with any Gargoyles, Executioners, and other similar mechs.

Agreed! I am working one up for my kindraa mick kreese force

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, it has two factories: one that produces the Jagatai and Kirghiz, and one that produces the Predator. I know the Mandrills controlled the Predator facility and I think they took control of the aerospace factory after the fall of the Jaguars.

You might also be thinking of the Xerxes factory on Kirin, which the Horses rolled on once the Jaguars were gone. Although Sarna makes the same supposition on the Omnifighter factory, which sounds entirely likely to me too. I don't think it ever really clicked to me that the Jaguars were building Jagatais at one point.

[tassa_kay]

You might also be thinking of the Xerxes factory on Kirin, which the Horses rolled on once the Jaguars were gone.

Oh no, that factory I already knew about. It's on my master Horses document. It's the only confirmed fighter they've ever produced.

[Sjhernan3060]

I believe Shadow was noted as the mandrill capital so did each kindraa have a slice of it?

[WONC]

I believe Shadow was noted as the mandrill capital so did each kindraa have a slice of it?

As far as my reading of deployments in various Field Manuals goes, yes. Though, not all Kindraa maintain Shadow as their personal capitols.

[WONC]

As a followup to my above post, I decided to indulge my curiosity and check the Field Manuals for just where each Kindraa was situated. The listing of "capitol" is based on my assumption that each Kindraa would only deploy their command trinaries to where leadership was situated. Now, yes, given the lead-from-the-front nature of Clan culture, that could also imply that they were sent to problematic hot spots, which renders my assumptions moot. So, grain of salt.

I did both listings for FM:CC and FM:U, so these are roughly accurate for 3060ish and 3067, respectively. My twitchiness is for your potential benefit and/or amusement.

Code: [Select]

FM:CC (~3060)

Sainze
Shadow - capitol
Dagda
Strana Mechty - due to holding the saKhanship

Faraday-Tanaga
Shadow - capitol
Atreus
Dagda

Payne
Foster - capitol
Shadow

Mattila-Carrol
Marshall - capitol
Shadow
Strana Mechty - due to holding the Khanship

Beyl-Grant
Foster - capitol
Shadow

Kline
Dagda - capitol
Shadow
Foster

Mick-Kreese
Atreus - capitol
Shadow


Code: [Select]

And now, for FM:U (3067)

Sainze
Strana Mechty - due to holding the Khanship
Shadow - capitol
Dagda

Payne-Beyl-Grant
Dagda - capitol
Foster
Shadow

Faraday-Tanaga
Shadow - capitol
Atreus
Dagda

Mick-Kreese-Kline
Atreus - capitol
Foster
York - possible contract with Blood Spirits
Dagda

Mattila-Carrol
Marshal - capitol
Shadow


[tassa_kay]

One weird addition to the list: the Fire Mandrill holdings on Huntress. The Pahn City enclave (and the attached industriplex that produces Warhawks) should be a Mattila-Carrol holding, but FM:U doesn't list any forces defending that enclave for... some reason.

[WONC]

Ah, nice catch! That one slipped my mind completely.

[tassa_kay]

I only remembered it because it's such an odd example: it has a friggin' Warhawk factory and the Mandrills have NO FORCES protecting it!

Also, I was checking another source to see if I could add to your list. Per the "Rivers of Blood" scenario that was on BattleCorps, set in 3069, the Mandrills have a Delphyne factory on York, and the opening text suggests that it's a Payne-Beyl-Grant facility. A little digging in TRO 3075 indicates that this is indeed theirs... the factor is literally called Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant Main Production Facility. A little odd, because the Spirits weren't especially close to that particular Kindraa, but there it is.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hello fellow mandrills I am finally starting to paint my mick kreese warships and boy it’s been tricky but I am trying! If any of you all have mandrill warships of your own to show please post picts

[Sjhernan3060]

Hello fellow mandrills I am finally starting to paint my mick kreese warships and boy it’s been tricky but I am trying! If any of you all have mandrill warships of your own to show please post picts

In addition to this I have a question: would the aero focused mick kreese likely “invest” in top quality Omni fighters but be ok with 2nd line mechs or vechiles for their ground forces?

[Alan Grant]

In addition to this I have a question: would the aero focused mick kreese likely “invest” in top quality Omni fighters but be ok with 2nd line mechs or vechiles for their ground forces?

Whether by choice or circumstance they are very reliant on second-line material. As of FM: Crusader Clans they have 1 front-line Cluster and 3 Second-Line Cluster.

The fluff on the 23rd Air Assault Force says that one third of their fighters are generally down for maintenance.

Best guess, since a lot of their leadership are pilots, yeah I bet they strive to ensure the pilots (particularly those in the command unit and the 1 front-line unit) get a few choice picks, a few pretty new airframes. Splurge on a few really good but expensive fighters. But the status of the 23th hints at the fact that this is a resource-poor Kindraa. They are probably very reliant on just whatever machines they can get from anywhere. And a lot of it is second-line hardware. Can't afford to be too picky, and that's probably what you see in the second-line clusters.

I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of the ASFs in their second-line clusters are in fact OmniFighters. But they may be older airframes. Some of them showing their age.

There is a significant cost difference between something like a Tyre or Chaeronea (standard engine) and their front-line OmniFighter XL engine equipped equivilant. You can pick up a lot of those second-line birds like that, for the same cost as an OmniFighter.

In FM: Updates the Fire Mandrill second-line aerospace fighter RAT also includes a fair number of Star League era designs slotted in. Rogue, Zero, Hellcat, Gotha, Ahab, are scattered around in there. That speaks to the Clan as a whole and not Mick-Kreese, maybe if you had an individual RAT for them it might show better ASFs. But I'm not sure.

Maintaining the 2 warships are likely sucking up a lot of the Kindraa's resources. In Clan Snow Raven the naval assets and everything surrounding them (the assault ships, the fighters, elemental marines etc.) get the lion's share of the resources, and a lot of their ground units get whatever is left of the resources. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick-Kreese has a similar mentality.

[Sjhernan3060]

Whether by choice or circumstance they are very reliant on second-line material. As of FM: Crusader Clans they have 1 front-line Cluster and 3 Second-Line Cluster.

The fluff on the 23rd Air Assault Force says that one third of their fighters are generally down for maintenance.

Best guess, since a lot of their leadership are pilots, yeah I bet they strive to ensure the pilots (particularly those in the command unit and the 1 front-line unit) get a few choice picks, a few pretty new airframes. Splurge on a few really good but expensive fighters. But the status of the 23th hints at the fact that this is a resource-poor Kindraa. They are probably very reliant on just whatever machines they can get from anywhere. And a lot of it is second-line hardware. Can't afford to be too picky, and that's probably what you see in the second-line clusters.

I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of the ASFs in their second-line clusters are in fact OmniFighters. But they may be older airframes. Some of them showing their age.

There is a significant cost difference between something like a Tyre or Chaeronea (standard engine) and their front-line OmniFighter XL engine equipped equivilant. You can pick up a lot of those second-line birds like that, for the same cost as an OmniFighter.

In FM: Updates the Fire Mandrill second-line aerospace fighter RAT also includes a fair number of Star League era designs slotted in. Rogue, Zero, Hellcat, Gotha, Ahab, are scattered around in there. That speaks to the Clan as a whole and not Mick-Kreese, maybe if you had an individual RAT for them it might show better ASFs. But I'm not sure.

Maintaining the 2 warships are likely sucking up a lot of the Kindraa's resources. In Clan Snow Raven the naval assets and everything surrounding them (the assault ships, the fighters, elemental marines etc.) get the lion's share of the resources, and a lot of their ground units get whatever is left of the resources. I wouldn't be surprised if Mick-Kreese has a similar mentality.

Thank very much for this analysis and it underscores why I really like the mandrills and the mick kreese kindraa in particular! I love the opportunity to have mix tech forces

[Alan Grant]

Do we know the fate of the Payne Warship Reaver? Sovetskii-Soyuz class.

She gets into a fight with the Coyotes, exchanges broadsides with the Essex-class Windrunner in the WoR era. But that's it. It doesn't say if she is destroyed. The rest of the Payne-Beyl-Grant meet their end at Arcadia I believe later fighting the Bears. But that is described solely in ground battle terms.

I'm wondering if she pops up somewhere else.

[tassa_kay]

Nope. It's never seen again and we don't know anything past WoR.

[WONC]

Best outcome is she was mothballed somewhere around or near Shadow, either due to damage sustained or from lack of resources to keep her going. Worst case, well, I won't go down that road.

Most interesting outcome? She survived and led a Mandrill exodus into the unknown, a la Battlestar Mandrillica.

[Alan Grant]

So the last we seen of Payne-Mick-Kreese is that they drop on Arcadia to challenge the Bears, the Lola III Anathema gets mentioned as being there. The Bears ignore the Zell-like Trial and shredded the Mandrills, then began packing up to leave with everyone and everything they could load up on every available spacecraft to evacuate Arcadia and go to the Inner Sphere. At the last minute this effort as interfered with by the Blood Spirits, who fired warship warning shots from the CBS Rocinante onto the planet and then another Blood Spirit Warship, the Stooping Kite, tried to do the same with a Bear jumpship, things got out of hand and the Stooping Kite destroyed it and killed a lot of Bear lower castemen. The Bear response was to throw space-capable craft they had at the Rocinante until it was a wreck, then proceed with their evacuation. It was their last action in the Homeworlds.

It does make you wonder how much Payne-Mick-Kreese warriors and equipment, perhaps even warships, they may have scooped up in the process. How much of that might have been thrown into the fight against the Blood Spirits, and how much of that might have survived to make the trip to the Inner Sphere.

The CFM Anathema is found later and elsewhere. It is found in the Marshall system having suffered some kind of system-wide shutdown (SLOT virus?) and the Stone Lions put her back into service. So it seems like it left Arcadia.

Some weird missing pieces to all this. The CFM Anathema ends up in the Marshall System for some reason. The Firehold (Carrack class) seems to disappear and the Reaver seems to disappear. Payne-Beyl-Grant's 3-warship navy ends up in an unknown place.

Certainly possible they got wiped out in all the crazy fighting in WoR era. Just not specifically mentioned.