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Author Topic: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL  (Read 1057 times)

Empyrus

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"Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« on: 24 May 2015, 17:53:27 »
Going through Sarna's list of VTOLs, i noticed that none of them seem to be carrying the flexible LB-10X Autocannon. There are Gauss Rifles and Heavy PPCs, and whatever else but seemingly not this relatively common weapon.

Easy enough to make one. I named it Havoc after a Soviet helicopter's reporting name, though i don't think this has any resemblance to the real Havoc (probably, i don't know anything about the real Havoc).

I think this may be a Star League era vehicle. During the Succession Wars a downgraded version was used though by the end of the Wars, it was near extinct design, while the recovery of Helm Memory Core put the original back into production around the Clan Invasion. Later on, an upgraded design was developed.

Because the weapon weights quite a lot for such a small vehicle, i used 30-ton chassis. A fusion engine keeps costs down and gives the VTOL 8/12 movement curve, a bit slow for a a VTOL perhaps. 5 tons of Ferro-Fibrous gives the helo quite sturdy armor, for its size.
The LB-10X is provided with two tons of ammo to make use of the weapon's flexibility.
Code: [Select]
Havoc

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 1 730 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 637

Power Plant:  100 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 86,4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 129,6 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                100                       4,50
    Cruise MP:  8
    Flank MP:   12
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  89                  5,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     30       
                                          Left/Right   21/21       
                                                Rear     15       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC                                   FR        2         1        11,00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         BD        -         0         1,00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 6
8v         1       1       1       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: FLK 1/1/1


This is the Succession Wars-era downgraded version.
The rare and expensive Fusion Engines were reserved for other units and so this had to do with an ICE. The LosTech LB-10X was downgraded to standard AC/10, and ammo-load was halved. To keep the 8/12 speed, armor was significantly reduced.
A very unpopular VTOL, due to the high firepower delivered with respectable speed and thin armor making the Havoc a high-priority target.
Code: [Select]
Havoc (Downgrade)

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-D-D-A
Production Year: 2840
Cost: 970 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 460

Power Plant:  100 I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 86,4 km/h
Flanking Speed: 129,6 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Autocannon/10
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             I.C.E. Engine                100                       6,00
    Cruise MP:  8
    Flank MP:   12
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             0                         0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV -  56                  3,50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     19       
                                          Left/Right   13/13       
                                                Rear     9         
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/10                                FR        3         1        12,00
@AC/10 (10)                                  BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      2    Points: 5
8v         1       1       0       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: EE, AC 1/1/0


This upgraded Havoc has XL-Fusion Engine for faster speed, Heavy-Ferro-Fibrous for increased protection, and CASE. Not really different from its predecessor.
Becomes more common after the Jihad as XLFEs proliferate for vehicles more so than pre-Jihad.
Code: [Select]
Havoc (Upgrade)

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 3 560 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 718

Power Plant:  130 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 97,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 151,2 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             130                       4,00
    Cruise MP:  9
    Flank MP:   14
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV -  99                  5,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     32       
                                          Left/Right   24/24       
                                                Rear     17       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC                                   FR        2         1        11,00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0,50
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         BD        -         0         1,00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 7
9v         1       1       1       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: CASE, FLK 1/1/1


Any comments?
Suggestions for changes/optimization?
Should i perhaps lower the armor and increase speed, and/or re-distribute the armor? Should i lower the armor on the original version to install CASE (that is, would the Star League have used CASE for a VTOL like this)?

Considered making a IIC version but i figure the Clans, even Hell's Horses probably wouldn't bother, more likely they'd utilize any units they might have brought with them during the Exodus, perhaps retrofitted with Clan CASE but otherwise not bothering.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Empyrus

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #1 on: 24 May 2015, 19:00:35 »
And because why not, a Royal upgrade for the Star League-era.

Despite costing about twice as much as the standard variation, the Royal Havoc is a simple upgrade. The Fusiong Engine is replaced with a higher rated XL model increasing speed to 9/14, and CASE was added.

Code: [Select]
Havoc (Royal)

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 3 510 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 691

Power Plant:  130 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 97,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 151,2 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             130                       4,00
    Cruise MP:  9
    Flank MP:   14
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  89                  5,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     30       
                                          Left/Right   21/21       
                                                Rear     15       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC                                   FR        2         1        11,00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0,50
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         BD        -         0         1,00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 7
9v         1       1       1       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: CASE, FLK 1/1/1

IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Col Toda

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #2 on: 24 May 2015, 20:41:33 »
This is among the best things I have seen you design . The general idea of something fast enough to get behind the enemy uses slug to punch threw and cluster to gut it with criticals.

A. Lurker

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  • Posts: 4641
Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #3 on: 25 May 2015, 02:36:15 »
When it comes to heavy weapons, standard VTOLs can be pretty straightforwardly compared to light 'Mechs -- they can only invest so much of their mass into firepower before something has to give, and that something's generally speed, armor, ammunition, in-universe price tag, or some combination thereof. That's why the only two canon VTOLs with class-10 autocannons that I can find on short notice -- the Skadi and the XL version of the Gossamer -- are both Clantech (their autocannons are that bit lighter), and why VTOL Gauss and light Gauss platforms aren't exactly common either (and of those, the Yellow Jacket with its underwhelming 6/9 movement profile is generally considered something of a death trap at least by every player I've ever heard voice an opinion).

Of this particular take on the subject, I probably like the XL-equipped versions best simply because they at least manage to move reasonably well (yes, in the world of VTOLs I consider 8/12 to already be somewhat sluggish). A fuel cell engine might also be a reasonable compromise; using one and shaving a ton off somewhere, probably from the armor, would also enable a 9/14 speed at a notionally lower price tag than going all extralight. Although that comes with a caveat: such a chopper would acquire an explosive fuel tank critical hit and probably be just as prone to blowing up on crashing as an ICE-powered one as well.

Empyrus

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #4 on: 25 May 2015, 06:11:59 »
I figured 8/12 speed is slow for a VTOL, but it can't be helped without sacrifices.

Does CASE protect the crew from fuel tank explosion? I'd imagine it does... should probably study the rules for vehicles some more, i am somewhat mech-oriented.
Pondering whether i should reduced the armor for CASE or not. Doesn't add anything for gameplay but from in-universe perspective, why not because it is available?
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

A. Lurker

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #5 on: 25 May 2015, 07:01:40 »
CASE deals with ammo explosions; fuel tank ones are, I think, somewhat their own thing (since they're basically the vehicle equivalent of an engine explosion on an ICE/fuel cell-powered IndustrialMech, where IIRC CASE doesn't really help either). Certainly, nothing in the rules actively says CASE offers any benefits when it comes to resolving them...

That said, ammo-carrying VTOLs can still suffer ammunition hits and CASE protects from those normally; rear armor blown out and crew stunned for a turn, but the chopper's still airborne. Once in a while it makes a difference, although whether or not I'd reduce specifically armor for it depends on how thick that is to begin with; with VTOLs in particular one eventually hits a point of diminishing returns since the rotors can only carry two points tops anyway and destroying them kills the vehicle as surely as laboriously chewing through, say, 40 points on the nose first does.

Empyrus

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #6 on: 25 May 2015, 07:45:27 »
CASE is said to be used for fuel tankers and other such things as well as ammo bins. Sure, that deals with the vehicle's cargo, not their own engine.
I don't see any real reason not to put fuel tanks behind CASE as well... unless it is one of those cases where non-Fusion units are being deliberately nerfed by introducing flaws to them...
Ah, well, can't have everything in a vehicle, i guess.


And because i was bored, i made the Clan version anyway. I figure this is a Hell's Horses vehicle, probably used by other aerospace-oriented Clans as well.

First the standard Havoc IIC.
Because the Clans are crazy, they just stuffed the thing with an XL engine, despite the expense. And made it fast. Also sports increased armor protection and integral CASE as usual for the Clans.
Code: [Select]
Havoc IIC

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-D-D-A
Production Year: 2840
Cost: 4 350 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 768

Power Plant:  190 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 118,8 km/h
Flanking Speed: 183,6 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  LB 10-X AC
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             190                       6,00
    Cruise MP:  11
    Flank MP:   17
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  86                  4,50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     26       
                                          Left/Right   21/21       
                                                Rear     16       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC                                   FR        2         1        10,00
@LB 10-X (Slug) (10)                         BD        -         0         1,00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10)                      BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 8
11v        1       1       1       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: CASE, FLK 1/1/1


The Havoc IIC 2 trades the LB-10X for an Ultra Autocannon/10. Lacks flexibility but punches above its weight.
Code: [Select]
Havoc IIC 2

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-D-D-A
Production Year: 2940
Cost: 4 190 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 964

Power Plant:  190 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 118,8 km/h
Flanking Speed: 183,6 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  Ultra AC/10
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             190                       6,00
    Cruise MP:  11
    Flank MP:   17
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  86                  4,50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     26       
                                          Left/Right   21/21       
                                                Rear     16       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10                                  FR        3         1        10,00
@Ultra AC/10 (20)                            BD        -         0         2,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 10
11v        2       2       2       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities:


The Havoc IIC 3 uses the recently developed HAG-20. Suffers from the new toy syndrome probably.
Gains damage and range, at the expense of accuracy (for long range) and ammo endurance and loses some flexibility.
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Havoc IIC 3

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: VTOL
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3068
Cost: 4 350 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1 147

Power Plant:  190 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 118,8 km/h
Flanking Speed: 183,6 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  HAG-20
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      15 points                3,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             190                       6,00
    Cruise MP:  11
    Flank MP:   17
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         1,50
Lift Equipment:                                                            3,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  86                  4,50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     26       
                                          Left/Right   21/21       
                                                Rear     16       
                                               Rotor     2         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAG-20                                       FR        4         1        10,00
@HAG-20 (12)                                 BD        -         0         2,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      3    Points: 11
11v        2       2       2       0      1     0   Structure:  2
Special Abilities: CASE, FLK 1/1/1


EDIT It occurs to me that one could stuff two Clan LRM-20s in place of the HAG-20, having almost the same range, no long-range penalty and double the damage potential...
« Last Edit: 25 May 2015, 07:47:50 by Empyrus »
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

A. Lurker

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #7 on: 25 May 2015, 08:25:31 »
Ultimately I suppose it's not so surprising that there aren't so many canon LB-10X VTOLs.

-- On an ICE-powered VTOL it's kind of hard to find the requisite twelve to thirteen tons while still getting any decent combination of speed and protection.

-- Fuel cell engines are a relatively new development out of universe, so a lot of canon units were designed when they weren't even an option to be potentially considered yet (there's been some catching up since, mind) even though they may have technically existed in universe all along. I believe there's also some fluff that they never really did catch on with the militaries of the BT universe, although I wouldn't be surprised to see that quietly retconned someday.

-- And fusion-powered VTOLs that want to sport some big gun are arguably usually better off just investing their limited weight allowance into energy weapons first of all so as to take advantage of their engine's free heat sinks. On a fusion-powered VTOL I can have that LB 10-X and ten shots' worth of ammo...or I can have an ER PPC plus the requisite five extra heat sinks for the same weight, or a regular PPC and five tons to flat-out spare.

So, yeah...it takes some special circumstances to make a heavy ballistic "main gun" look worthwhile. Pre-HPPC the Gauss rifle was the Inner Sphere's only real long-range headcapper for a while, which explains the Yellow Jacket. And an LB-X makes some sense specifically for the ability to fire those clusters (less so for slugs since on anything with a fusion engine a PPC can give me the same punch for less weight), although for purposes of hunting other choppers in modern days I'd probably use a 5- or even 2-class for the greater range and put the weight savings into more speed to keep up with the "prey". But the general bias is definitely in favor of energy weapons (for fusion VTOLs) and/or missiles (for everybody).

Empyrus

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #8 on: 25 May 2015, 08:49:08 »
Very true. Except as far as i can determine, there are no canon LB-10X armed VTOLs. One LB-2X exists.
LB-10X just happens to have great flexibility, far more so than most other weapons. A fast platform for moving one around is nice, in theory.

Gotta agree LB-5X is better for a flying platform probably but i wanted to make this a Star League-era vehicle for some reason.

Not surprised about Fuel Cells being rare in-universe, as even IRL they have all kinds of issues which make them unattractive. No doubt some of these issues can be alleviated with future technology but when you have cheaper and more effective alternatives (internal combustion engines and fusion engines)... Yeah.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

A. Lurker

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Re: "Havoc" LB-10X VTOL
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2015, 09:07:37 »
Very true. Except as far as i can determine, there are no canon LB-10X armed VTOLs.

As I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a Clan one in that one Gossamer model (the Skadi I also brought up sports an Ultra). And that has an intro date of 3124, although the MUL then lists it as fairly widely though not quite generally available...before then, nothing, and certainly no "pure" Inner Sphere tech or Star League designs.

So, yeah, I suppose there's a gap of sorts, especially since I can't find many canon VTOLs using any other LB-X ACs either. There's the Clan model of the Cardinal, another 32nd century design that's mainly a troop transport and for some reason carries an LB 2-X...but that really seems to be about it. (Personally I also have a self-made Warrior variant and my Chickenhawk design from some time back, but as homebrews of their own I can't very well count those.  :)))

 

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