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Author Topic: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...  (Read 116853 times)

Kitsune413

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Welcome back Wellspring and that was an inspiring and illuminating response to my question.

At the end of the day im a nagasawa and a kalasa who aspires to be a labov. I think thats what, other than the totem, makes Clan Sea Fox my clan...

But you have always championed that labov line of thinking and its an important frame of reference.
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wellspring

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I think it's important to remember, there are no pure "good" factions in battletech. Some factions are more good than others, and some factions really are Pure Evil (tm) but there's no one good guy. We have to resist the urge to give our own favorite faction a makeover.

With that said, you can do  a lot of good in the world by being sensible, following your self-interest, and no going out of your way to be actively mean. That the space where the Shark Foxes live. No grand schemes of reform, no ideologies of pure light. See somebody who's hungry? Can we work out a way to profit by helping them? There's no shortage of suffering in the Inner Sphere; we can afford to pick and choose.

Because the reality is, Pure Evil doesn't pay. Stefan Amaris's reign lasted 13 years, and he ultimately failed to accomplish any of his objectives. Myndo Waterly failed. The Word of Blake tried the same thing writ evil, and also failed. Katherine Steiner-Davion destroyed her father's empire so she could own a piece of the ruins-- ultimately she too failed. I could almost picture a Diamond Shark as Number Two in Austin Powers, when he says, "You're trying to take over the world, but There. Is. No. World. There's only corporations."

That's the diamond shark / sea fox way, IMO. They're happy to do something nice (if it can somehow be made to benefit them). Or, they ruthlessly pursue their long-term self interest (realizing that Evil is bad for business while a good reputation can keep the targeting reticule off you). And it's not clear which way of thinking is driving their actions, even to them.

Ransom Clarke

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I think it's important to remember, there are no pure "good" factions in battletech. Some factions are more good than others, and some factions really are Pure Evil (tm) but there's no one good guy. We have to resist the urge to give our own favorite faction a makeover.

With that said, you can do  a lot of good in the world by being sensible, following your self-interest, and no going out of your way to be actively mean. That the space where the Shark Foxes live. No grand schemes of reform, no ideologies of pure light. See somebody who's hungry? Can we work out a way to profit by helping them? There's no shortage of suffering in the Inner Sphere; we can afford to pick and choose.

Because the reality is, Pure Evil doesn't pay. Stefan Amaris's reign lasted 13 years, and he ultimately failed to accomplish any of his objectives. Myndo Waterly failed. The Word of Blake tried the same thing writ evil, and also failed. Katherine Steiner-Davion destroyed her father's empire so she could own a piece of the ruins-- ultimately she too failed. I could almost picture a Diamond Shark as Number Two in Austin Powers, when he says, "You're trying to take over the world, but There. Is. No. World. There's only corporations."

That's the diamond shark / sea fox way, IMO. They're happy to do something nice (if it can somehow be made to benefit them). Or, they ruthlessly pursue their long-term self interest (realizing that Evil is bad for business while a good reputation can keep the targeting reticule off you). And it's not clear which way of thinking is driving their actions, even to them.

That is an amazing post and yes that is what i like about clan diamond shark / sea fox. They believe in self preservation more then any other clan and avoid pitfalls that got other clans like Clan Steel Viper in trouble

SteveRestless

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At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.
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wellspring

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At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.

Lol I keep meaning to change my avatar slightly.

Kitsune413

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We used to use the exact same avatar. But then I colored the injured sea fox logo myself. Hard to change from one you have built yourself.
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wellspring

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My slightly-AU unit is Tau Galaxy (the Silver Foxes). That includes a covert ops unit quietly seconded to the Watch called the Dark Sharks. Either ought to inspire a logo change for me... should coolness win out over procrastination.

Fletch

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At a glance, I keep mistaking Wellspring and Kitsune for each other when I see them post, due to their very similar avatars.

Kitsune looks like he had a tougher weekend

Kitsune413

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They don't call it a dark age for nothin'.
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rebs

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It has been a good day today - you did not have to use your Tomahawk A today.  Trothkin ;D

All because you persevere and continue to pimp the most noble of Clan insignia.

Weirdo

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Greetings!

...so I've decided to work up a Clan Protectorate star to join the rest of my FWL stuff. Not much of my spare Clan stuff laying around is very Nova Cat-themed, so I've decided to go for a second-line Delta Aimag star. What information is out there about Delta, such as tactical preferences, color scheme, and whatnot? All I really remember is that the Cluster they've got in the Protectorate really lurves them some LRM goodness, which certainly explains why they're welcome in the FWL.

What I'm looking at for my Star:
Mad Cat Mk II-E
Nova Cat
Ha Otoko (planning to kitbash it into a -3)
Piranha
2 Ares tanks

Thanks for any information or insight you might have!
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Kitsune413

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I think that psycho was working on some delta a image stuff.

Omicron is the unit that likes to drop lrm's on people. It's got a strange history because it was technically supposed to be the spirit cat unit from the dark ages.

Spina as a whole doesn't have a lot of information on them other than that they are in tight with the FWL.

But as far as clan sea fox goes they have two combat modes. Sea Fox mode where they are pragmatic and tricky and Diamond Shark mode where they just blitz things with overwhelming force.

That star is very spirit cat/Sea foxy.
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Weirdo

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Given all the fun things you can do with LRMs, it's pretty easy to switch from pragmatic and tricky to overwhelming force with a simple toggle of a switch.

Should be especially fun, given that while I certainly plan to keep my options open, I want to kitbash the Nova Cat into a B model. 8)
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"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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Savage Coyote

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What Khanate?  Spina?

Weirdo

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I think so.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
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Klat

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Spina is correct. I've been trying to no avail to find something.
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Savage Coyote

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Find what Klat?  The scheme?

Klat

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Find what Klat?  The scheme?

I was concentrating on paint scheme. Is it posted somewhere and I missed it? I was looking for Weirdo as he mentioned it up thread.
Light Assault Group - An Orwellian appelation applied by the Draconis Combine to troops haphazardly equipped with whatever expendable equipment was lying around the maintenance yard, for the purpose of throwing their lives away for the greater glory of the Dragon, see also Human Bombs.

Kitsune413

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those Skate Khanate Cizins Psycho posted are gorgeous
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Savage Coyote

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I was concentrating on paint scheme. Is it posted somewhere and I missed it? I was looking for Weirdo as he mentioned it up thread.

We have schemes for all five but for some reason the Foxes don't show up on the unrepresented units list.  I'm not sure if I can post the others that haven't been shown yet or not to be honest.  I'll ask and see

jklantern

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So, in the last month I got copies of "A Time of War" and the "A Time of War Companion," and the AToW Companion has something that interested me.  Basically, it's a bunch of optional rule expansions to help insert more flavor into your RPG (if you're not familiar with the book).  One of the things it talks about is optional rank rules for each major faction.  For the Clans, it basically talks about which Clans have less respect for Freeborns (which essentially counts as a rank penalty for those Clans), preferred field of service (essentially, what types of warriors have more weight behind their voice, which translates to a rank bonus), and other miscellaneous things.

So, naturally, most of the Clans, the Preferred Service Field is "Mechwarrior."

The Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes, however, is NOT.  Their Preferred Field Service is apparently Aerospace.  This kinda surprised me, as when I think of the AEROSPACE Clans, I usually think of the Cobras or the Ravens.  And I reread FM: Warden Clans recently, and I don't recall the Diamond Shark section saying anything particular about the Aerospace Forces (while it did say that they had some very well respected Elemental Forces).

On the other hand, David Kalasa was either a Naval Guy or an Aerojock, can never bloody remember which.

So, basically, the question I have, are the Sharkfox Aerojocks actually well respected among all the Clans, is this a result of David Kalasa being a flying sorta guy, or is this not a HISTORICAL thing, but rather a more recent thing (with the changing nature of the Sharkfoxes into the Khanate System)?
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Alan Grant

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You are looking at the wrong leader, look to Karen Nagasawa, she was a pilot and commanded the Sea Foxes air units. In Operation Klondike she was "Sky Fox One". Kalasa was a mechwarrior. Without a doubt Nagasawa has historically been one of the Clan's most prestigious Bloodlines, not unlike Kardaan for the Cobras.

The Diamond Sharks, in the Jihad and pre-Jihad eras are noted for having "Combined Assault" Clusters, which tend to make heavy use of aerospace, typically more than the 1 Trinary that is the norm for an average Clan Cluster. They also have second-line "Air Assault" Clusters which are exactly what they sound like. So they have some units with notable aero bias in the touman.

That said, I'm kinda surprised by that too. I'd have thought mechwarrior or even Elemental, because of how successful that Clan has been at producing quality Elementals.

But the Diamond Sharks have always had that nomadic quality about them, even prior to the Dark Age, they traveled around a lot as traders. I suspect the aero jocks ride shotgun for the merchants a lot, not just with the Clusters but in independent aero units onboard dropships like the Titan class. Also I seem to recall that the Sharks occasionally indulged in raiding space assets in the Homeworlds, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

EDIT: The Sharks also take a liberal view of Zell, which means they employ air power more commonly in ground battles to bomb and strafe than some Clans. That could be another factor.

I wouldn't take all this to mean that the Sharks are an "Aero Clan". Rather, their air arm has greater impact and importance, both in politics and on the battlefield, compared to some Clans that bid away their aero stars first.
« Last Edit: 24 August 2014, 16:28:20 by Alan Grant »
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jklantern

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You are looking at the wrong leader, look to Karen Nagasawa, she was a pilot and commanded the Sea Foxes air units. In Operation Klondike she was "Sky Fox One". Kalasa was a mechwarrior. Without a doubt Nagasawa has historically been one of the Clan's most prestigious Bloodlines, not unlike Kardaan for the Cobras.

The Diamond Sharks, in the Jihad and pre-Jihad eras are noted for having "Combined Arms" Clusters, which tend to make heavy use of aerospace, typically more than the 1 Trinary that is the norm for an average Clan Cluster. They also have second-line "Air Assault" Clusters which are exactly what they sound like. So they have some units with notable aero bias in the touman.

That said, I'm kinda surprised by that too. I'd have thought mechwarrior or even Elemental, because of how successful that Clan has been at producing quality Elementals.

But the Diamond Sharks have always had that nomadic quality about them, even prior to the Dark Age, they traveled around a lot as traders. I suspect the aero jocks ride shotgun for the merchants a lot, not just with the Clusters but in independent aero units onboard dropships like the Titan class. Also I seem to recall that the Sharks occasionally indulged in raiding space assets in the Homeworlds, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

EDIT: The Sharks also take a liberal view of Zell, which means they employ air power more commonly in ground battles to bomb and strafe than some Clans. That could be another factor.

I wouldn't take all this to mean that the Sharks are an "Aero Clan". Rather, their air arm has greater impact and importance, both in politics and on the battlefield, compared to some Clans that bid away their aero stars first.

You sure about Kalasa?  I could've sworn...well, I've never read Klondike and I don't have FM Wardens in front of me, and Nagasawa testing into aerojock DOES sound familiar.

MOST of the Clans have Mechwarrior listed as their preferred service.  The other two that have Aero listed are (not surprisingly) Cobras and Ravens, with the Ravens getting an additional bonus if the person is Aero-NAVAL.  So it was kinda shocking to see the Sharks/Foxes having them listed.  But you are right in that they always had the nomadic feel anyway, and it makes sense that a lot of Aerospace Fighters would support the merchant fleet.

(The only thing that was more shocking to me was the fact that Infantry is NOT the Preferred Field of Service for the Horses; they have no preferred field.  But they do give a bonus if you're the Elemental Phenotype, so it kinda amounts to the same thing.)

EDIT:  Just looked up in FM: Warden Clans.  Yeah, Nagasawa I'm thinking of.  Don't know why I thought it was Kalasa.  Maybe I was thinking of the Kardaans over in Cloud Cobra.
« Last Edit: 24 August 2014, 16:32:20 by jklantern »
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Alan Grant

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Look up David Kalasa on sarna.net. He was a mechwarrior and commanded the Sea Foxes ground forces, he died early in Klondike when the Coyotes pulled out of the fight because they didn't like the way the Clans were fighting, which made the Foxes very angry due to the ensuing losses they took. Karen Nagasawa took over and according to Op. Klondike she would overshadow Kalasa in terms of shaping the Clan through Klondike and afterward.

The Cobras and Ravens obviously are not a surprise, but yeah the Sharks surprise me a little. But a quick glance through FM: WC and I noted a number of aerospace pilot Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels. In some Clans that's extremely rare but apparently not in the Sharks.

Even in the 3050s and 3060s the Sharks were also making heavy use of their fleet, going as far as to pair Clusters up with certain warships permanently, that would also put more power in the hands of the pilots, even those who have gone up to command warships/jumpships/dropships.

So there's an argument to be made there. But part of me can't help but wonder if the choice was made as much for variety's sake as anything. As in an Editor looked at it and decided to change "mechwarrior" to "Aerospace" for sake of variety.
« Last Edit: 24 August 2014, 16:38:10 by Alan Grant »
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jklantern

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Look up David Kalasa on sarna.net. He was a mechwarrior and commanded the Sea Foxes ground forces, he died early in Klondike when the Coyotes pulled out of the fight because they didn't like the way the Clans were fighting, which made the Foxes very angry due to the ensuing losses they took. Karen Nagasawa took over and according to Op. Klondike she would overshadow Kalasa in terms of shaping the Clan through Klondike and afterward.

The Cobras and Ravens obviously are not a surprise, but yeah the Sharks surprise me a little. But a quick glance through FM: WC and I noted a number of aerospace pilot Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels. In some Clans that's extremely rare but apparently not in the Sharks.

Even in the 3050s and 3060s the Sharks were also making heavy use of their fleet, going as far as to pair Clusters up with certain warships permanently, that would also put more power in the hands of the pilots, even those who have gone up to command warships/jumpships/dropships.

So there's an argument to be made there. But part of me can't help but wonder if the choice was made as much for variety's sake as anything. As in an Editor looked at it and decided to change "mechwarrior" to "Aerospace" for sake of variety.

If anything, there's a shortage of "Infantry" on there; the Bears are the only one listed with that as their preferred field (again, really surprised that the Horses didn't get that as well).

I have a feeling I might be getting Operation Klondike for my birthday, so I'm looking forward to reading up on the early days of my favorite Clans.
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Alan Grant

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Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

« Last Edit: 24 August 2014, 17:20:55 by Alan Grant »
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wellspring

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Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

Totally agree about this. It also helps contextualize the Bears v Adders thing, tells us useful information about the Burrocks, etc etc etc.

Interesting fun tidbit about Karen Nagasawa: she was originally a Blood Spirit. The Sea Foxes, Spirits, and Nagasawa herself lobbied the Founder to change her assignment. Since all 800 original Clan members are listed in H:OK, with 40 per clan, it's not clear if the transfer was a trade, or if substitutions were made or what.

Since the Diamond Shark/Sea Fox future was already known, it's possible that making ASF their favored branch of service was just anticipating the post-WoR clan change? I don't know, I don't have ATOW. Certainly they had wide-ranging possessions to defend. They struck me as percentagers: grabbing the most productive sliver of a planet and leaving the rest to another clan. They also have a massive merchant fleet to defend; those elementals might not just be serving ground duty.

Another way to look at it is this: the Ghost Bears have nearly unlimited funds, so they loaded up on heavy Mechs and elementals, but still have a good air force. The Diamond Sharks have excellent resources as well, and so whereas the Cobras and Ravens have to adapt to limited ground forces, the Sharks could have superb air support without having to use it to pinch-hit in what really should be ground duties.

Finally, there's this. The Diamond Sharks under-stated the size of their Touman to other clans, at least in the Revival and Jihad eras-- the only clan to do so (the Blood Spirits report precisely correct figures, while all other clans puff up their numbers a bit). But even the official listings only list the Galaxies-- ground forces plus WarShips. Depending on the Clan, an ASF wing attached to a WarShip might be part of the galaxy, or it might be considered a naval formation attached to the WarShip and therefore not count in the ground force counts in the Field Manual. The same goes for marines-- except that to my knowledge marines are never counted as part of any clan's galaxies. You can hide quite a few fighters and elementals from the official force estimates that way.

jklantern

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Wait...the Bears got "Infantry" and the Horses got "Elemental"? That seems strange, at the very least I'd imagine Elemental for both, or maybe the use of the term Infantry was a typo. Potential errata?

Operation Klondike is a good book, arguably a must-read for any Clan fan with an appetite for more info about the Clans. It adds a level of context to early Clan history that is very helpful in understanding each individual Clan and also some of the Founder's decisions and choices. Plus the profiles on the Khans are cool, and there are some really great bits of info about other individuals among Kerensky's 800.

Basically, the way the Rank table is set up, each Clan gets three columns:

Freeborn Modifier             Preferred Service Field                                         Notes

+0, -1, -2, or N/A                Mechwarrior, Aerospace, Infantry, None


Basically, the Bears got Infantry in their preferred service field, no notes.  Horses got "None" in their preferred service field, with a note that "Elemental Phenotype gets +1," which is an odd distinction.

Even if I don't get Klondike for my birthday, I'll probably pick up a copy.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Quote

Interesting fun tidbit about Karen Nagasawa: she was originally a Blood Spirit. The Sea Foxes, Spirits, and Nagasawa herself lobbied the Founder to change her assignment. Since all 800 original Clan members are listed in H:OK, with 40 per clan, it's not clear if the transfer was a trade, or if substitutions were made or what.

Where was this information from out of curiosity?

jklantern

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Where was this information from out of curiosity?

I feel like it's mentioned in FM: Warden Clans, but I bet it is elsewhere as well.
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