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Author Topic: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...  (Read 106945 times)

Deadborder

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Thought Angus kept his bloodname even before he came back to warrior status?

Anyway, Invasion era question . . . we know Barbara Sennet supported the merchant castes making in roads to the Inner Sphere while Ian Hawker had to keep spitting out green feathers in his approach to getting IS territory.

My question is . . . would Sennet have the political power to set up a Shark trading enclave in the Wolf OZ, say somewhere like Kobe?  Or would Hawker try to block it due to keeping his Falcon buddies happy?

Probably the latter. Hawker was so in bed with the Falcons that he wouldn't want to do anything to upset the apple cart, and anything involving the Wolves would be high on the 'do not want' list .

Also, Kobe wasn't in the Wolf OZ.
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wellspring

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I know "hidden armies" has been beaten to death in BT (though somewhat justified by the technology of the universe). With that said, am I the only one who believes that the Sea Foxes have some cluster of worlds in the periphery somewhere where they house most of their population and production?

The wandering part of the clan handles marketing, distribution, and sales, along with some basic production. Meanwhile, their core infrastructure is safe and sound, off-camera somewhere far rimward of the Inner Sphere. Eventually, the Sea Foxes turn into a kind of ComStar: an institution that's omnipresent, essential to the Inner Sphere's daily life, but taken largely for granted.

On another note, I haven't read WoR yet, but my understanding is that it's told largely from the Shark POV. There's plenty of room in there for them to conveniently omit mass relocation of their civilian castes to greener pastures.

Southern Coyote

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I'd be willing to bet the Sharks/Foxes have a few planets that aren't on the grid (or any important grids) tucked away.  Makes good business sense. 
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I know "hidden armies" has been beaten to death in BT (though somewhat justified by the technology of the universe). With that said, am I the only one who believes that the Sea Foxes have some cluster of worlds in the periphery somewhere where they house most of their population and production?

The wandering part of the clan handles marketing, distribution, and sales, along with some basic production. Meanwhile, their core infrastructure is safe and sound, off-camera somewhere far rimward of the Inner Sphere. Eventually, the Sea Foxes turn into a kind of ComStar: an institution that's omnipresent, essential to the Inner Sphere's daily life, but taken largely for granted.

On another note, I haven't read WoR yet, but my understanding is that it's told largely from the Shark POV. There's plenty of room in there for them to conveniently omit mass relocation of their civilian castes to greener pastures.

Chainlaine Islands. (See Interstellar Expeditions.)
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wellspring

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Chainlaine Islands. (See Interstellar Expeditions.)

Good point.

I'm actually thinking something further out antispinward. We know a great deal about the coreward Periphery, and why not? Kerensky's exodus went thataway, and the Explorer Corps focused their search for the clan homeworlds in that direction. I mostly love what's been revealed about what's out there, but from a planning perspective, all those periphery kingdoms are known entities that are right along the path between the homeworlds and the IS. Which puts them in harm's way.

If I were khan (spoken with suitably slurred speech after a few too many Green Goliaths), I'd have run a survey of the Periphery rimward and antispinward, maybe 600 LY out or so? Taken my time, scouted out some prime real estate.  Kerensky's challenge was that his ships were packed to the gills with near-mutinous settlers. With 20-20 hindsight, I could say I'd started the fishing expeditions with the beginning of Operation Revival, when the other clans were distracted, but certainly the writing was on the walls after the Refusal War and when the Ghost Bears migrated. Five good planets in good proximity to one another, and science stations dropped off to plan everything long in advance. Even one good world would be enough to hold the 70 million Diamond Sharks of WoK.

With most of my infrastructure off-camera and unknown to the mainstream clans, I'm not a target. The ArcShips and CargoShips hold lots of people, factory equipment, yards perhaps... but enough to support a major faction? Not with the construction rules I've seen. The trade worlds might do it. The Chainlaine Islands are another possibility, or simply a tripwire and good side venture. Subversion (rather than open conquest) of the Hanseatic League seems like a natural for the Diamond Shark portfolio... and openly, loudly banishing the Clans out helps hide their presence from prying eyes in the Home Clans' Watch.

I've been re-watching B5 lately, and that got me thinking about BattleTech again. It's hard not to watch Mr. Morden and not think of the Diamond Sharks.

There are 54 star systems within 60 LY of Terra. But that's out of well over 1400 star systems, mostly red dwarfs of little or no value. Not to mention vast reaches of empty space that's jump-accessible. So you could use those to plot virtually untraceable jumps in and out, and even hide spaceborne, space station-based colonies in the Inner Sphere with little or no chance of detection. A habitable world in the far periphery gives you a refuge that's hard to capture. For an ostensibly nomadic clan like the Shark/Foxes, who is going to notice if a ship drops out of circulation for a few years? With tens of thousands aboard and years between visits to a planet, no one will notice if the crew is rotating in and out.

rebs

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I have to repeat Ghost Bear; check out Interstellar Expeditions.  There are large scale surveys and maps of all four areas of the Periphery.   Lots of info, but still leaves a lot to the imagination.

Oh...   And the Chainelane Isles are covered generously.  You'll find answers.
« Last Edit: 06 December 2012, 21:15:48 by rebs »

wellspring

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I have to repeat Ghost Bear; check out Interstellar Expeditions.  There are large scale surveys and maps of all four areas of the Periphery.   Lots of info, but still leaves a lot to the imagination.

Oh...   And the Chainelane Isles are covered generously.  You'll find answers.

Already doing it-- I trust my GhostBear. ;)

rebs

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Time is rolling forward in the universe.   Wars and rumors of wars abound in our new home.  And speaking to us with a voice all its own, the palpable silence from the Home Worlds, left long behind on the stellar road.  So be it - all bills have been paid in full with regard to them.   

Soon we take back our name, the Sea Foxes, and cast aside the identity of the Diamond Shark, honored though it has been.  No longer do we march through time among twenty, seventeen, ten Clans of Kerensky, but free are we to seek that which we would attain to.  Our Clan's destiny is truly that: ours, alone.

Profits ride high like tides surging in a windswept bay, gleaming and churning under the light of three moons.  Our allies and enemies alike wonder at the secrets that we know.  Our secrets, many and dear they are, keep them all transfixed.  Never do they see our true designs; at least not until it is too late.

Indeed, as the silence on this thread shows, busy we all are in adapting to our new home.  This journey, of conquest and of commerce, has led us to our destiny.  We are the link between the (soon to be) silent worlds, bringing with us one of humankind's most cherished of ancient traditions, that of trade between communities.  And in that role will we come to dominance over all.


One question: Have stats been published for the ArkShips, or for the structure of the Aimags and Khanates?  Or will that be taken care of in future publication?



« Last Edit: 12 January 2013, 00:34:15 by rebs »

Gustav Kuriga

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That was a really beautiful post rebs. ^_^
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rebs

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That was a really beautiful post rebs. ^_^

I used to write a fairly successful poetry blog, did that for several years.  I learned a lot from that, poetry, prose and human relations on the internet.  For good and for ill.

Just wondering about pre-Dark Age Shark Fox business, hoping for a good answer from others in the community.   :) 


Jaim Magnus

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Why did the Sharks get censured at the end of the century and change their names back to Foxes? Just using the reason of selling Clantech to non-Clan entities doesn't stick, since they've been doing that since after the Great Refusal.


It's an internal matter.  They hold a vote and change their name back to Sea Foxes in 3100.
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StCptMara

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It's an internal matter.  They hold a vote and change their name back to Sea Foxes in 3100.

Actually...from the old INN stuff and Faction info from the stuff WK released, the Diamond Sharks changed their name
AFTER being censured by the "Grand Council" for selling the Mad Cat mk III to the IS.
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Rainbow 6

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Cracking post Rebs.

We've not seen anything on the Foxes structure or Arc-Ships as yet, i'd assume we'll get them next year when they flesh out the Dark Age Era.

rebs

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Cracking post Rebs.

We've not seen anything on the Foxes structure or Arc-Ships as yet, i'd assume we'll get them next year when they flesh out the Dark Age Era.

Thanks. 

I was pretty sure that was the case but you never know, CGL has been producing a lot of stuff as of late, so I thought I'd ask.  :)

Pa Weasley

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Yep, the most there's been is a mention of the ArcShips in the Diamond Shark section of Interstellar Expeditions.

ArkRoyalRavager

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Actually...from the old INN stuff and Faction info from the stuff WK released, the Diamond Sharks changed their name
AFTER being censured by the "Grand Council" for selling the Mad Cat mk III to the IS.

Bingo. Since the Mad Cat III is par for the course with the Mk II, and there was no mention of censure in TRO3090, it could be another case of the IS not aware of what's really going on among the Clans to cause the name change.

Hellions don't think so. Other Clans don't necessarily agree. Kind of depends on the situation - sometimes they put up with it, sometimes they don't. I think that's why there's a lot of tanks, artillery and TAG in the Hellion touman (see: Flurry clusters, Icestorm mech, some Mist Lynx variants).

Thanks for the info!

Moonsword

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EDIT: Alright, let's just put this where it belongs directly...

Bingo. Since the Mad Cat III is par for the course with the Mk II, and there was no mention of censure in TRO3090, it could be another case of the IS not aware of what's really going on among the Clans to cause the name change.

You might want to reread the Deployment section.  TRO Prototypes makes it clear that the Republic, at least, is well aware that the others Clans aren't happy about it.  They're completely shunning the design and the Falcon Khan is pretty thoroughly cheesed.

Quote from: TRO Prototypes, page 148
Khan Samantha Clees of the Jade Falcons has claimed, “… selling cutting edge Clan technology to the barbarians of the Inner Sphere is an outrage against everything Nicholas Kerensky stood for and taught us.”

I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet.  Since the Mad Cat Mk. III began production in 3086 and the name change occurs in 3100 - after the Sharks reorganize in 3091 and 3094, and the "Great Reavings" begin in 3097 - it's also not the only issue going into it.  At this point, we simply don't know how much the Inner Sphere knows about the situation because our only sources are either too early or are sketchy news reports from a few decades later.
« Last Edit: 12 January 2013, 11:36:54 by Moonsword »

rebs

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Yep, the most there's been is a mention of the ArcShips in the Diamond Shark section of Interstellar Expeditions.

I noticed that.  IE 3 is setting the story of Shark/Fox change in motion, though it's still early on...   I'm pretty baddly impatient. 

Also, I love the stuff at the INN/WK sites, the Human Sphere and all.  When I was starting to get back into BT after a long hiatus, I googled "The Periphery" and found Touring the Stars.  I started reading Herb's articles and I knew I had to come back.  BT was not only alive, it was running off in a wild direction and I needed to hurry and catch up  ;D

But as I've learned, a great deal of information from that site has already been overwritten or otherwise changed as it's officially released.  I know a lot of it has been used, but a lot of other ideas were apparently "tried on"  and deemed not to fit.  It's all good, simply adds to my impatience.   :))

wellspring

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I think patience will be rewarded. I'd rather it be done right than done fast.

The Diamond Sharks have begun what was called "the Labov Project" in WoR, something that ties up their naval yards for the foreseeable future.

The biggest challenge with the Sharks is balancing their mercantile nature with their martial nature. Early attempts at writing them went way over on the merchant side. The latest supplements, like Wars of Reaving and ISP3, manage to get it just right IMO. There was a line from Trace in a FotW article where he said, "Never underestimate the ability of a Diamond Shark to spot an opportunity to buy your old lead minis, sell you new pewter ones, then melt down the lead ones and 'give' them back to you, nine millimetres at a time, at ~1200 fps." To me that's the Sharks at their best.

We're about to see a major change in Diamond Shark culture and iconography. Not only do we want the Sea Foxes that come out of this to be cool and believable, but we want the transition itself to be cool and believable. Re-read the original Field Manual entries on Brett Andrews and Hannibal Banacek. There's a clear line between where they were and where they went.

Think about the Wars of Reaving. Go through that plot, where they were and where they went. That supplement could very easily have been a train wreck. Sometimes it's easy to see when someone dances across the tightrope, juggling chainsaws and flamethrowers, that they're immensely talented. And sometimes, an expert does something so well that you don't realize how hard it was. That's Wars of Reaving, IMO. I'm dead-certain that there are still gems hidden in there that we'll only see in retrospect when future supplements come out. And so I'm happy if it takes a while for them to get a Ben Rome-quality treatment. (Not a slight on other authors, incidentally, just calling out one major success in the line.)

Finally, here's a gem I noticed. We all have our cool Sea Fox symbols... notice something odd? The original Sea Fox symbol was over a red tri-arrow, standing for Strenth, Skill, Nobility. The Diamond Shark logo kept that tri-arrow. So the new symbol goes back to the Sea Fox, but loses the arrow.

Is this simply a matter of it being visually pleasant? Or is this a statement of "no more Mr. Nice Foxes" after the censure? (And in fairness, the Foxes were already censured for selling clantech.)

rebs

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I think patience will be rewarded. I'd rather it be done right than done fast.

The Diamond Sharks have begun what was called "the Labov Project" in WoR, something that ties up their naval yards for the foreseeable future.

The biggest challenge with the Sharks is balancing their mercantile nature with their martial nature. Early attempts at writing them went way over on the merchant side. The latest supplements, like Wars of Reaving and ISP3, manage to get it just right IMO. There was a line from Trace in a FotW article where he said, "Never underestimate the ability of a Diamond Shark to spot an opportunity to buy your old lead minis, sell you new pewter ones, then melt down the lead ones and 'give' them back to you, nine millimetres at a time, at ~1200 fps." To me that's the Sharks at their best.

We're about to see a major change in Diamond Shark culture and iconography. Not only do we want the Sea Foxes that come out of this to be cool and believable, but we want the transition itself to be cool and believable. Re-read the original Field Manual entries on Brett Andrews and Hannibal Banacek. There's a clear line between where they were and where they went.

Think about the Wars of Reaving. Go through that plot, where they were and where they went. That supplement could very easily have been a train wreck. Sometimes it's easy to see when someone dances across the tightrope, juggling chainsaws and flamethrowers, that they're immensely talented. And sometimes, an expert does something so well that you don't realize how hard it was. That's Wars of Reaving, IMO. I'm dead-certain that there are still gems hidden in there that we'll only see in retrospect when future supplements come out. And so I'm happy if it takes a while for them to get a Ben Rome-quality treatment. (Not a slight on other authors, incidentally, just calling out one major success in the line.)

Finally, here's a gem I noticed. We all have our cool Sea Fox symbols... notice something odd? The original Sea Fox symbol was over a red tri-arrow, standing for Strenth, Skill, Nobility. The Diamond Shark logo kept that tri-arrow. So the new symbol goes back to the Sea Fox, but loses the arrow.

Is this simply a matter of it being visually pleasant? Or is this a statement of "no more Mr. Nice Foxes" after the censure? (And in fairness, the Foxes were already censured for selling clantech.)

Hey Wellspring. 

My impatience is only inspired by the superb quality of works like Wars of Reaving and Operation Klondike

You spoke of hidden gems...   I spot something new nearly every time I flip the pages or WoR for more than a few minutes, so I can only agree.  It is a true work of art like that, if any sourcebook ever was considered to be such.  And several of them are, over the years.  I said it somewhere else recently, but have no problem saying it again: after reading those two sources in particular, I was very glad to have come back to this game universe.

And I did notice the lack of a Tri-Arrow.  Glad you brought that up.  Our business partners and foes alike should take those concepts as given when dealing with us.  They really shouldn't need a reminder.  ;)




wellspring

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My impatience is only inspired by the superb quality of works like Wars of Reaving and Operation Klondike

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a raging hypocrite who wants to see stuff like that as well.

But the other thing is that I like playing games in the "now" of a setting. So Catalyst taking its time and doing it right also has the happy side effect of getting me to think about playing in the post-Jihad era. I'd actually quit playing ten years ago for many reasons, but in part because the Jihad and Dark Ages and stuff didn't interest me.

rebs

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Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a raging hypocrite who wants to see stuff like that as well.

But the other thing is that I like playing games in the "now" of a setting. So Catalyst taking its time and doing it right also has the happy side effect of getting me to think about playing in the post-Jihad era. I'd actually quit playing ten years ago for many reasons, but in part because the Jihad and Dark Ages and stuff didn't interest me.

Same.  I kind of wandered to other interests after Twilight of the Clans and the Great Refusal.  Such is life. 

Now, all of this great new stuff has actually lit a fire of interest in the Jihad and DA under me.  Good show.  :)   

ArkRoyalRavager

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EDIT: Alright, let's just put this where it belongs directly...

You might want to reread the Deployment section.  TRO Prototypes makes it clear that the Republic, at least, is well aware that the others Clans aren't happy about it.  They're completely shunning the design and the Falcon Khan is pretty thoroughly cheesed.

I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet.  Since the Mad Cat Mk. III began production in 3086 and the name change occurs in 3100 - after the Sharks reorganize in 3091 and 3094, and the "Great Reavings" begin in 3097 - it's also not the only issue going into it.  At this point, we simply don't know how much the Inner Sphere knows about the situation because our only sources are either too early or are sketchy news reports from a few decades later.

Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.

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Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.

 oh gawd, battletech was all ready the 80s in the future, Can we really survive the diamond sharks selling lime green parachute pants?  ;D
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I still maintain the Sea Fox changed their name cause the plushies sold better.  ;)

Moonsword

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Shunning is a form of censure? Agreed with the other issues, a lot's going to happen in the 90s.

As I said in the post you quoted, "I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet."  It's building.  And the way the Republic, at least, is aware of the issue is probably shaping their perception of whatever's going on in the Clans.

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It is building alright. I think it's ComStar who's more aware of it too, since TRO:P was written by a ComStar Precentor.

wellspring

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As I said in the post you quoted, "I suspect that censure simply hasn't happened yet."  It's building.  And the way the Republic, at least, is aware of the issue is probably shaping their perception of whatever's going on in the Clans.

I think Objectives: Clans reveals a little tidbit about the state of their sibkos that might shed some light on what's to come for them.

wellspring

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OK to be a bit more specific, the report that a juvenile Shark Warrior hasn't been seen in years. What's up with that?

As far as I can tell, either there was an interruption in the breeding program, or it got halted entirely, or they're elsewhere. Except that if it was related to the breeding program, then you'd still be seeing young freeborn warriors. So what's going on here?

By "halted", I mean that the Sharks somehow lost all their genetic legacies. They had a massive exodus fleet destroyed at Salonika* and their homeworld was savaged in WoR-- both of which surely had copies of their legacies. But their only copies? I find it hard to believe that with all their advanced preparation for a relocation, that somehow they'd waited that long to move a copy of their genetic legacies. The Sharks were lingering in the homeworlds almost to the very end. Plus, they had legacies to share with the other Council of Six clans later.

Plus, the new warriors of 3085 were decanted in 3065-- a time when the Sharks were happy as a clam. Where the sibko cadets killed in the WoR? Maybe the program is fine post-WoR but the new sibkos simply aren't old enough to have graduated yet. Except that again, if that were true we'd be seeing freeborn warriors.

Their scientist caste may have polluted their legacies severely. In which case, the Sharks don't want to advertise, but have quietly spent the past few years cleaning them up. The Home Clans had to do this, too, and it took them years as well. This could explain an interruption-- except that again, if that were true where are the freeborn juveniles?

One possible explanation is this. Maybe they're elsewhere. If the SharkFoxes have another periphery base, not just their coreward post in the Isles, then they might well be raising their sibkos there and be keeping the kids away from the IS, where they could be taken as bondsmen and reveal the secret colony before its defenses are established. That would be suicide for another clan; they rely on new warriors to replace their constant combat losses, but the Sharks are different. If there's one thing the Sharks have never lacked for, it's troops. Their retirement system means that at any time they can have two to three times their active duty contingent available as reservists-- maybe a little rusty, maybe not in the prime of life, but certainly seasoned and ready. So they don't need the steady stream of cadets to keep their touman filled.

(* I find the Battle of Salonika very suspicious. The Shark exodus fleet lingered there for weeks, even after being spotted and attacked. All they needed to do was to jump to another hiding place, leaving a warship or two to sheep-dog the stragglers. Why stick around? And then when they were attacked, the JumpShips just sat there, despite having had enough time to re-charge ten times over. The situation makes no sense whatsoever. With Vinton, the Sharks were lying low there for years, but you could at least imagine they were busy evacuating and/or waiting for pickup. With Salonika, it's like they were inviting a massacre. And somehow I doubt that Ben suddenly took leave of his senses when he wrote that. Either I'm misreading the passage or the passage is misleading me-- my feeling is that Semi Kalasa's account is... delicately phrased.)