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Author Topic: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...  (Read 120592 times)

rebs

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I've got a really stupid question, but one that's been bugging me all the same: what have the Sharkfoxes been doing with all the money they're making? They're selling practically everything they can.
That is what they use to fund all their secrets.  Secret naval yards for repairs and refits of their ships - as well as those of the highest bidder - secret production facilities, secret trade routes to people on worlds few others may know about in turn making more money...   much is real, like in the Chainlaines, but there are always hints and rumors of more resources than we know about.

Plus what we are shown in the various sources.   



« Last Edit: 26 January 2013, 14:54:00 by rebs »

Foxx Ital

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That is what they use to fund all their secrets.  Secret naval yards for repairs and refits of their ships - as well as those of the highest bidder - secret production facilities, secret trade routes to people on worlds few others may know about in turn making more money...   much is real, like in the Chainlaines, but there are always hints and rumors of more resources than we know about.

Plus what we are shown in the various sources.

 Well theres your not so secret naval yards your building in Tuk, plus you and the ravens are using the Alshain yards as well... So thank you sharks for your money  O0
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
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 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

rebs

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Takes money to make money.  ;)

And hey - most people say Don't feed the bear.  Shark Foxes clearly know better than that.  Feeding the bear is good for you!

Besides...   what else are you using it for?  Don't you Bears have a three ship navy? 

Gustav Kuriga

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<.< I thought the money was to open that new chain of buffets.
that's nonsense you loon. i use a hammer to drive screws and I ENJOY IT  - Cik


rebs

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Don't tell that to the Bears!  Swedenese carryout will be our primary competition as it is.  ;)

Foxx Ital

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Takes money to make money.  ;)

And hey - most people say Don't feed the bear.  Shark Foxes clearly know better than that.  Feeding the bear is good for you!

Besides...   what else are you using it for?  Don't you Bears have a three ship navy?

 Yeah =( but don't worry, We'll forget aaaaall about that once your buffet opens!! I'm sure its all you can eat Quaff? ^_^
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
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 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

GreekFire

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So the Sharkfox master plan is to get everyone as fat as possible? Devious.
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Foxx Ital

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I blame the dirty spheroids and their dezgra recipes. What do you MEAN using vanilla and Cinnamon is breaking cooking zell!!! Tho to be honest, I wouldn't surprise me if they really did do something that devious in cannon.

 <Shark khan> "Once we have given them Diabetes...we strike"

Also, yaaaaaaay, getting closer to the name change ^__^. As one of my top 3 favorite clans i'm excited.
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
"I got 99 problems but using Elementals aint one, if you got battle armor troubles i feel bad for you son"
 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

rebs

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As you see, there are many layers to the Chain Buffet Plot. 

For one thing, only open a franchise on a planet that we also dominate the healthcare industry.  And as everyone knows, we do that not by training doctors, but half-training large bodies of bureaucrats and cubical gnomes.   ;D

The ones who survive to pass on their genes find that a special enzyme - say, in the calamari for example - has actually hardwired a deep biological addiction to the Buffet's cooking :)  (aka, the McDonald's Enzyme Plot, stolen named from a long forgotten scam of similar nature perpetrated on a willing populace).

::finishes large chocolate shake::

wellspring

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Strictly speaking, the Sharks are like all Clans: they don't turn a profit at all. It's all kept as retained income and reinvested in operations.

What we typically see of the Shark Foxes is their merchant caste. Think of them as their sales and marketing division. Those massive ArcShips are a channel of distribution and mobile retail storefront wrapped together. They offer products and presumably buy resources with the proceeds. No doubt, some clever plays with Kerenskies/C-bills make things even more lucrative. Being mobile, they can move on once they take the cream off the top of the market, always chasing the most profitable markets.

Of course, that's only half of what makes a good corporation. There's also operations and R&D. In other words, they need manpower and gear to transform the resources they buy into the products that they sell. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

  • The Sharks are much stronger than they appear. They have outposts for production. Some we know about, some we don't. Much like the way the Hidden supported ComStar (another militant corporation run amok). The part of Clan Diamond Shark that we see is just the retail arm; the rest is an "off the books asset". The Sharks do their trading and periodically return to their bases to exchange surplus resources for finished goods. That's my theory.
  • The Sharks are much weaker than they appear. The outposts they've advertised, and their ArcShips, are the only ones they have. This is ArkRoyalRavager's theory, and while I don't think it's as well supported by the evidence, it's certainly not contradicted, either. If this is the case, then how do they get the goods to sell? Perhaps they buy resources from the Great Houses and high tech from the IS Clans, making enough of a surplus of both to keep their clan limping along. Or perhaps they have enough factories on their ArcShips and CargoShips.

Either way, the profits ultimately take the form of surplus finished clantech goods and/or resources. These presumably get reinvested in their operations. No matter what their actual status, it ultimately converts into a higher standard of living for their civilians and a larger touman for the warrior caste.

ArkRoyalRavager

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I second that conclusion. Whatever the process, the bottomline is the Shark Foxes will have a higher standard of living than the typical Spheroid or Spheroid Clanner. In that case, having a lower population base would boost their per capita income a lot.

wellspring

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I second that conclusion. Whatever the process, the bottomline is the Shark Foxes will have a higher standard of living than the typical Spheroid or Spheroid Clanner. In that case, having a lower population base would boost their per capita income a lot.

And whichever of us is right, either way the Sharks have managed to develop a clan way of life that keeps their core territory and civilians from being subjected to Trials of Possession. So far as I know, none of the IS clans challenge the sharks for an ArcShip or its contents, and I don't know of them losing any trading worlds between "now" and 3140. That's got to be worth a sigh of relief from the Shark civilians who escaped the kerensky cluster.

rebs

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Agreed with Wellspring.  The term "Money" was being used in place of wealth above.  And of course, as a Clan, all wealth goes back to the Clan.  Its a business backed up by their way of life.  Nice break down of the situation, as always.  O0

And agreed with Ark Royal's reasoning about one thing in particular:  The Sharks could be weaker than we realize, but also, they have the ability to lull folks into believing that whether its true or not.  Shark Fox history is filled with instances of other Clans deriding them as weak and soft merchants, a claim often rebutted by the warriors.  As already mentioned, they seem to have traded on that ability to make others underestimate their resolve, making large gains in that way while defending their right to conduct Clan business as they see fit.
« Last Edit: 26 January 2013, 23:30:39 by rebs »

roosterboy

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So far as I know, none of the IS clans challenge the sharks for an ArcShip or its contents

The Wolves did try and seize a Swimmer Khanate aimag in 3097. Not quite the same as an ArcShip, granted, but still a significant chunk of one Khanate. They failed and paid the price later that same year, losing two full clusters and suffering a 200% price increase on all dealings with the Sharks.

GreekFire

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Thanks for the answers everyone!

We now know how the Clan reacts when someone tries to grab one of their aimags, but how do you all think they'd act if, say, Clan Ghost Bear were to invade and attempt to take over Trondheim and Tukayyid?
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rebs

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That's why we "feed the Bear", see?    :)

Taking Trondheim and Tukayyid would be all too easy, and obvious, militarily.  The Shark Foxes could maybe put up a really vicious fight, but the Bears have numbers and their logistics base is right on top of those areas.  They would not hold out too long.

After a while, people grow accustomed to our goods so this isn't such a concern.  They know the price to pay for trying to rip us off, as long as we show them the price gun every now and then.  Like with the Wolves and Swimmer Aimag, which is another great point.

But, if it did happen, and we were chased out of both planets as you say, the Bears would be basically cut off from business, and you'd likely see the Wolves, Hell's Horses and Nova Cats all getting nice deals on real Omnis.  And maybe we pick a better world or two for our troubles  ;D 
« Last Edit: 27 January 2013, 01:15:36 by rebs »

Foxx Ital

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Thanks for the answers everyone!

We now know how the Clan reacts when someone tries to grab one of their aimags, but how do you all think they'd act if, say, Clan Ghost Bear were to invade and attempt to take over Trondheim and Tukayyid?

 Since you only have a enclave on Tukayyid, i don't see us really needing to "invade"  ;) Plus your a handy group to have around.   
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
"I got 99 problems but using Elementals aint one, if you got battle armor troubles i feel bad for you son"
 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
 <Kojak> Yeah, there's definitely a learning curve with BA, But once you learn how to use 'em well they're addictive,heck, just look at what happened to Foxx ;-)
<Steve_Restless> its YOU who I shouldn't underestimate. I could give you a broom handle and I'd find you sitting on top of the enemy stormcrow, smug surat grin on your face

Colt Ward

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Fox trading outposts on worlds controlled by the IS or Invader Clans are sort of like Hong Kong used to be, trade ports that were a gateway to wider markets.
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Alan Grant

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Has anyone else ever picked up on the origins of the "Cruiser" Cluster designation? The Sharks Touman circa FM: WC lists several "Cruiser" Clusters, one per Galaxy actually.

I was puzzled by it for quite a while. It made me think of "Cruiser" submarines from around WWII, which were larger subs designed for truly long distance travel and independent operations. I think I assumed it stemmed from that or was just borrowed from naval nomenclature in general by a Clan with a sea-based totem. But I was just reading something the other day about U.K. tanks before and during in WWII. They were divided into two classifications, infantry support tanks and "Cruiser" tanks, which were used like cavalry and designed with high speed in mind. Being an American, I just never knew that.

With that knowledge in hand I went back into FM: WC and realized the Sharks' Cruiser Clusters follow this model. Each one emphasizes "flanking maneuvers", "rapid deployment" or great speed like the Sturm Wache Cluster. It looks like nearly every Galaxy included a Cruiser Cluster at some point. They represented a fast maneuver force often equipped with fast or light mechs.

I'm sure someone else figured this out years ago, but its news to me. I learned something new today.   :)

It does make me wonder, assuming the above is true, what brought about the Sharks' grasping the term and applying it this way. If it does indeed have an old world Terra connection I feel like it might have been put in place by one of the Clan's founding warriors. Possibly someone with personal history or connection to the British Isles.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2013, 11:29:58 by Alan Grant »
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ArkRoyalRavager

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The Sharks have very different designations for their Clusters. Are they just different names for the standard Striker-Battle-Assault designations?

wellspring

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The Sharks have very different designations for their Clusters. Are they just different names for the standard Striker-Battle-Assault designations?

Many years ago, I went through FM:WC and tried to figure out what the Sharks meant by the different cluster names. Despite giving it my best shot, I never figured it out.

Alan Grant

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After spending some time today investigating here is what I think:

Strike: Main line combat. Largely a generic distinction incorporating a healthy amount of medium/heavy/assault mechs with elemental and aero support. Some Strike Clusters seem to be heavier weight. All appeared to be focused on ground combat. Akin to an assault/battle/Guard Cluster in other Clans. Should not be confused with the "Striker" designation in some Clans that indicates a lighter weight unit.

Cruiser: Oriented toward speedy mechs, light and medium weight machines, many have ample aero or elemental support to offset their lack of staying power. These Clusters emphasize tactics and strategies that emphasize speed and maneuverability and some are noted for their scouting skills as well. In some other Clans these units would be called Striker or Recon Clusters.

Combined-Assault and Combined-Strike: The exact composition varies depending on Galaxy Assignment and the availability of an Air Assault Cluster. In Front-line Galaxies where no Air Assault Cluster exists, Combined-Assault or Combined-Strike Clusters emphasize air support with multiple ASF Trinaries or Binaries and are the central focus of air power for the entire Galaxy. Their structure is similar to some Cloud Cobra Clusters, with multiple aero Trinaries backed to a few mech/elemental Trinaries or Binaries. In Galaxies where "Air Assault" Clusters exist, these units are more varied in composition. With some emphasizing strong Elemental/Mech combos while others emphasize strong mech/aero combos. Or they are evenly split, one Cluster had 2 mech Trinaries, 2 Elemental Trinaries, and 2 Aero Trinaries. The exact composition is molded in part by the needs of the parent Galaxy. These units are sometimes molded to shore up wherever the parent Galaxy is weak. For example in the Rho Spina Galaxy, their Combined-Assault Cluster was assigned the Galaxy's only air support. Oddball elements, like armored vehicles, also tend to end up in these Clusters. Front-line units of this type should be thought of as Air Attack Clusters. Second-line units of this type in other Clans might be considered equivalent to "Regulars" or PGCs.

Air Assault: As the name suggests, these units make use of multiple Trinaries or Binaries of fighters, with sometimes as little as a Trinary or Supernova of ground forces backing them up. They tend to be the second-line equivilant of the air focused Combined-Assault or Combined Strike Clusters in front-line Galaxies.

Command Clusters: Often shaped by the Galaxy Commander as they see fit, these units vary in composition, but they tend to have a healthy amount of every unit type, 'mechs, elementals and ASFs, with Supernovas being common. They tend to get some of the best equipment and warriors.

Its important to note that plenty of exceptions exist. For example in Gamma Galaxy the presence of a mech-heavy Assault Cluster has allowed the 21st Strike Cluster to focus itself into a mostly Elemental Cluster. Some units have also been molded by tradition and their composition has veered away from what they probably were originally, but they retain their original name.
« Last Edit: 27 January 2013, 15:09:51 by Alan Grant »
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Hellraiser

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From the cluster descriptions I would say Cruiser Clusters are the equilent of SLDF Striker units.
Built for Speed, Rapid Deployment, & Recon.

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ArkRoyalRavager

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After spending some time today investigating here is what I think:

Strike: Main line combat. Largely a generic distinction incorporating a healthy amount of medium/heavy/assault mechs with elemental and aero support. Some Strike Clusters seem to be heavier weight. All appeared to be focused on ground combat. Akin to an assault/battle/Guard Cluster in other Clans. Should not be confused with the "Striker" designation in some Clans that indicates a lighter weight unit.

Cruiser: Oriented toward speedy mechs, light and medium weight machines, many have ample aero or elemental support to offset their lack of staying power. These Clusters emphasize tactics and strategies that emphasize speed and maneuverability and some are noted for their scouting skills as well. In some other Clans these units would be called Striker or Recon Clusters.

Combined-Assault and Combined-Strike: The exact composition varies depending on Galaxy Assignment and the availability of an Air Assault Cluster. In Front-line Galaxies where no Air Assault Cluster exists, Combined-Assault or Combined-Strike Clusters emphasize air support with multiple ASF Trinaries or Binaries and are the central focus of air power for the entire Galaxy. Their structure is similar to some Cloud Cobra Clusters, with multiple aero Trinaries backed to a few mech/elemental Trinaries or Binaries. In Galaxies where "Air Assault" Clusters exist, these units are more varied in composition. With some emphasizing strong Elemental/Mech combos while others emphasize strong mech/aero combos. Or they are evenly split, one Cluster had 2 mech Trinaries, 2 Elemental Trinaries, and 2 Aero Trinaries. The exact composition is molded in part by the needs of the parent Galaxy. These units are sometimes molded to shore up wherever the parent Galaxy is weak. For example in the Rho Spina Galaxy, their Combined-Assault Cluster was assigned the Galaxy's only air support. Oddball elements, like armored vehicles, also tend to end up in these Clusters. Front-line units of this type should be thought of as Air Attack Clusters. Second-line units of this type in other Clans might be considered equivalent to "Regulars" or PGCs.

Air Assault: As the name suggests, these units make use of multiple Trinaries or Binaries of fighters, with sometimes as little as a Trinary or Supernova of ground forces backing them up. They tend to be the second-line equivilant of the air focused Combined-Assault or Combined Strike Clusters in front-line Galaxies.

Command Clusters: Often shaped by the Galaxy Commander as they see fit, these units vary in composition, but they tend to have a healthy amount of every unit type, 'mechs, elementals and ASFs, with Supernovas being common. They tend to get some of the best equipment and warriors.

Its important to note that plenty of exceptions exist. For example in Gamma Galaxy the presence of a mech-heavy Assault Cluster has allowed the 21st Strike Cluster to focus itself into a mostly Elemental Cluster. Some units have also been molded by tradition and their composition has veered away from what they probably were originally, but they retain their original name.

Wow, a very detailed analysis. Good job!

Hellraiser

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I've got a really stupid question, but one that's been bugging me all the same: what have the Sharkfoxes been doing with all the money they're making? They're selling practically everything they can. 

One thing to remember is the Sharks have never had an OZ in the IS.  So they have to get a lot of raw resources from IS worlds to refine into that lovely clan tech.

Sure they end up w/ some profit but in the end they are having to pay out a lot compared to clans with a 40+ world OZ.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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wellspring

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One thing to remember is the Sharks have never had an OZ in the IS.  So they have to get a lot of raw resources from IS worlds to refine into that lovely clan tech.

Sure they end up w/ some profit but in the end they are having to pay out a lot compared to clans with a 40+ world OZ.

Actually, that's a classic build-or-buy situation in operations management. If I mine the resources myself on one of my worlds, I have to pay for the miners, mining equipment, transportation, refining, more transportation, manufacturing, and all the tech teams and infrastructure required to support all that. And the garrison to defend all that infrastructure. Or, I can buy from someone else who incurs all those costs.

Depending on the situation, it might be cheaper for me to do it myself or hire a third party. As someone was mentioning recently, both the Clans and the IS have a bias towards autarky-- that is, doing everything themselves rather than outsourcing. That suggests there's significant excess profits to be made by someone who is willing to outsource.

(As a very rough and extreme example, when you're thirsty, you don't mine bauxite, refine it, and forge a container, then fill it with water flavored with sugar you grew on your own farm... you drop a buck into the drink machine and a can of Coke comes out. The same logic applies to build-or-buy -- albeit with the numbers usually much closer. )

Alan Grant

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A canon source (might have been Masters and Minions, might have been FM: 3085) noted that the Sharks have been buying up raw materials, and then turning that into finished products that they sell. And they've managed to make that work as a source of revenue.
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blackwizards

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First post. Hello!


The sharks have always been interesting to me, because they're so different. While I like the whole clan warrior cast society thing the Sharks/Foxes are cool because another cast of theirs actually matters (as opposed to all the other clans, who have the other casts but they just kind of lurk in the background). The whole warrior-merchant thing appeals to me too, and I like that within the Sharks warriors will often retire to work as merchants and its not seen as a disgrace necessarily.
« Last Edit: 31 January 2013, 21:32:12 by blackwizards »

rebs

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Welcome to the best page on the 'web, blackwizards.

Warriors even get to come back out of retirement if they can test out, like Angus Labov did.  Sometimes there's some danger involved with that, but that's what BT is about. 


Wolflord

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Quick question for sharkfoxes if the wolves had offered to trade their Paxon enclave to the sharks in late 3056 what would the sharks have been willing to trade in exchange? For the sake of argument I am looking for answers other than "nothing we don't want it" or Gunfire!

 

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