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Author Topic: The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...  (Read 106964 times)

wellspring

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Quick question for sharkfoxes if the wolves had offered to trade their Paxon enclave to the sharks in late 3056 what would the sharks have been willing to trade in exchange? For the sake of argument I am looking for answers other than "nothing we don't want it" or Gunfire!

To answer obliquely, "What do you require?"

The problem is that Paxon doesn't fix any of the problems that the Sharks are having. They lost their sole IS possession (Nyserta) to the Ghost Bears, and yet are still eager to be trading in the IS. They took massive losses at Tukayyid and yet still have to hold their massive clan space possessions with what's left. The Adders smelled blood in the water and had been staging Trials for Diamond Shark territory.

Their main needs are military hardware and warm bodies to operate it. In this era, Khan Hawker is letting saKhan Sennet and Factor Angus try to scrape together a replacement Touman. Long term, sure it's more resources, but in the short run Paxon is a white elephant: more to defend but nothing immediately to defend it with. It's sure to be lost in a Trial to someone.

So they won't trade cash, resources, capital equipment, ships, or labor.

What might make sense is a land swap for territory that's harder to defend but equally lucrative. Not knowing the relative profitability of each enclave, I can't really tell you for sure, but... the possession on New Kent, for example, was sure to be targeted by the Vipers at some point, but is very while they have it. The Wolves have the strength to hold it.

Tathis would make sense if I were at all worried about fighting Ice Hellions. Hell, it's worth it just as a training ground for newly blooded warriors to fight an easy opponent. The Sharks wanted the rest of Vinton before the Jaguars were destroyed, for whatever reason it's considered worth fighting for. Strato Domingo and Lum are right out. Maybe Priori? The thing is, the Sharks and Adders are friendly rivals with similar outlooks on life. Delios might make sense, depending on what's there. Barcella they didn't have at the time (they got it later from the Cats and Bears).

Dreyf

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Vinton was described as being one of the few Clan worlds that was self-sufficient.  I believe it was mentioned in WoR and that York was another such world.

Wolflord

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To answer obliquely, "What do you require?"

Well the wolf players I'm GMing are hoping to get a portable factory to load on the dropships/jumpships they are hoping to get by trading their Circe enclave to the Ravens.

So far the two big divergences from canon in this campaign are that the Sharks didn't get called up for Tukkayyid (so your Touman would be in much better shape) and the 6 invader clans have been ordered by the Grand Council to relocate (except for their blood chapels) to the occupation zones and prepare them as a launchpad for Op Revival II by the Homeworld clans.

wellspring

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Well the wolf players I'm GMing are hoping to get a portable factory to load on the dropships/jumpships they are hoping to get by trading their Circe enclave to the Ravens.

So far the two big divergences from canon in this campaign are that the Sharks didn't get called up for Tukkayyid (so your Touman would be in much better shape) and the 6 invader clans have been ordered by the Grand Council to relocate (except for their blood chapels) to the occupation zones and prepare them as a launchpad for Op Revival II by the Homeworld clans.

Ahhh.... that changes things.

Yeah, I'd trade a portable factory and a couple dropships for Paxon. Hell, I'd even throw in the JumpShips to transport them if they agree to letting us set up an enclave for trade purposes on one of your IS worlds like Nox.

Wolflord

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Ahhh.... that changes things.

Yeah, I'd trade a portable factory and a couple dropships for Paxon. Hell, I'd even throw in the JumpShips to transport them if they agree to letting us set up an enclave for trade purposes on one of your IS worlds like Nox.

How about Kirchbach?(spelling?) Didn't Vlad nix a deal that would have turned Kirchbach into another Twycross in exchange for a discount on goods purchased from the sharks?

wellspring

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How about Kirchbach?(spelling?) Didn't Vlad nix a deal that would have turned Kirchbach into another Twycross in exchange for a discount on goods purchased from the sharks?

Done... if you agree to allow us to produce and sell Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves to you (for Clan Wolf use only). It'll take a couple years for you to ramp up your own production in your OZ, you'll no doubt need the replacements, and it would jump start trade for us.

Wolflord

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Done... if you agree to allow us to produce and sell Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves to you (for Clan Wolf use only). It'll take a couple years for you to ramp up your own production in your OZ, you'll no doubt need the replacements, and it would jump start trade for us.

Bargained well and Done..........the "not really" exclusivity of the Timber Wolf and the Dire Wolf is no use if we don't have enough of them in the first place.  :)

On a side deal what is the going rate for trading in Adders and Ice Ferrets for Storm Crows?  ;)

Gustav Kuriga

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Might I ask, are you doing this campaign online, or irl? Because if it is online, I might be interested in joining.
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Wolflord

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IRL unfortunately, I tend to throw questions onto these boards to try to get a handle on issues I know/expect will come up as the campaign advances.

rebs

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I've noticed that it seems to be about half GM's and players here, if not more GM's.   Then again, like in my old group, all of us could DM/GM a game or three.  We used to flip duties around all the time until my one friend started putting together some really incredible campaigns, then he had the job full time and all was well for years.  :)   Mostly DnD and Beyond the Supernatural (ugh, Palladium is a bulky system) but also some BattleTech short campaigns that took a few months to end were thrown in from time to time, too.  Latter, the BT hardcore fans in the group put our own nights together.   Don't need eight to twelve people for BT anyway, it gets way too slow at times.  Four players is nice at the table for that, I've always felt.  But everyone's different. 

My bad, ramble on, ramble off. 

A new online group would be fun.  Less talky more daka daka with some roleplaying too  ;)   

St.George

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IRL unfortunately, I tend to throw questions onto these boards to try to get a handle on issues I know/expect will come up as the campaign advances.

Amen my brothah'.  ;D   We call this locally (drum roll) "The question of the day" which starts a heated debait which takes 1-2 hours of arguing our points during our sunday games.  ::)

Try 2 GM's for your games Rebs,have one assist the other,taking up the slack for all the mindless stuff that players ask.I run a table with 5-6 just about every sunday,which use to be hell when I did it myself.Now more could play,,,most I've had on the table was 12,but make sure you have "time",thats the key I've found.
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GreekFire

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Amen my brothah'.  ;D   We call this locally (drum roll) "The question of the day" which starts a heated debait which takes 1-2 hours of arguing our points during our sunday games.  ::)

Try 2 GM's for your games Rebs,have one assist the other,taking up the slack for all the mindless stuff that players ask.I run a table with 5-6 just about every sunday,which use to be hell when I did it myself.Now more could play,,,most I've had on the table was 12,but make sure you have "time",thats the key I've found.

Having 2 GMs sounds like the best idea I've ever heard. I'm stealing this for my group. That way the stallers, walking-questionnaires and mass looters will be able to go through the secondary GM rather than bogging down the entire campaign for hours on end.
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rebs

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::Rises from the metaphorical burning wreckage::

Hard to get the full 12 to show up all at once anymore...  clearly, it was not a problem at one time, and I miss those days.  But I think 8 can still be mustered, and that would be great group for the GM and assistant GM setup. 

We used to do something similar for DnD.  I'd lose interest in playing sometimes, but fall back to a consulting role with my friend the DM, plus I'd run NPCs.  In a way that was more fun, because I was in on the enemy's plans and could see were the arc was headed.  That would then lead to more advice about how to keep everyone on track without making them feel like they're on a railroad.  Choices, even the most unpredictable ones, only need to be known and can be dealt with the next session - if not that night. 

We'll definitely have to try that out for BT.   Good call, George.

Nerroth

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There is one thing that occurred to me about the actions of the Adders and Horses (and Lions) during the Reavings; or rather, about the manner in which it was reported in the WoR sourcebook. According to that report (which, presumably, the Horse Khans themselves seemed not to overtly dispute, and the Lions wouldn't care to anyway), the less-than-hostile manner in which the Adders dealt with both sides of what is now the Horse/Lion divide is quite notable, certainly in contrast to how brutally the Adders dealt with all of the other Council of Six Clans on their way out of the Clan Homeworlds.

The point I'm trying to get at is this; if we as readers can pick up on this, what kind of message is it sending in-universe to the Shark/Foxes themselves? The data in the report is already pretty interesting from a Shark/Fox point of view, before one considers what kind of data they may have decided to leave out of the "official" report.

Would the Horses not find themselves as the Council of Six Clan with the most attention now being placed upon it by the Shark/Fox Watch?

(If we on this board can speculate about what kind of backroom deals were done between the Adders and Horses beyond those already laid out in WoR, or what it might mean regarding the Horses' potential role in the event of a renewed invasion, who is to say that Semi Kalasa hasn't done the same?)

rebs

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Sound reasoning. 

And I think I remember this being touched on elsewhere too, that the Hell's Horses certainly look like the most likely Council of Six Clan to betray the rest because of their Adder connection and the speculation that went with that.   That Adders did save the Homeworld trapped Horses from annihilation via trial or simple fact is cause for a lot of that.   They also looked the other way while the Horses moved the bulk of their forces to the IS.  Who is to say that the long-game minded Adders did not give the Horses their blessing so as to already possess a foothold at the rear of the IS Clan OZs that can be exploited during the next invasion. 



edit: On the other hand, appearances are and will always be a primary ingredient of misdirection.

And I would like to be surprised by what happens even more than have speculation turn out to be near the mark.  Being right is simply not as important as enjoying a well-told story.  :)   But that won't stop my speculation, I'm sure.  ;)

« Last Edit: 10 February 2013, 02:01:41 by rebs »

Nerroth

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But then, even if the Horses tried to switch sides in the event of a new invasion, would they in a position to do so after 3145?

With the Horses now essentially coerced into backing Malvina Hazen's plays for Tharkad and Terra, would they be too far deep in the Falcons' machinations to be able to extract themselves should the time to flip arrive?

And given how poorly Malvina and her Mongol Doctrine would lkely be judged from a Homeworld Clan perspective, might the guilt by association be such that the Horses would now be treated by the Adders as equally irredeemable?

If so, the deal - whatever it might have been - may well be off.
« Last Edit: 10 February 2013, 02:48:48 by Nerroth »

rebs

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Could be.   :)   Or maybe there never was any more to the deal than what was reported. 

I agreed mostly with your first post in that we haven't received the whole story from Semi K, and that there is an Adder Horse connection of which we do not really know the full extent, not with certainty, at any rate. 
« Last Edit: 10 February 2013, 03:05:08 by rebs »

wellspring

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Could be.   :)   Or maybe there never was any more to the deal than what was reported. 

I agreed mostly with your first post in that we haven't received the whole story from Semi K, and that there is an Adder Horse connection of which we do not really know the full extent, not with certainty, at any rate.

I also agree, but the idea that the Horses are going to wait a half century to make some great betrayal just doesn't work for me. It's a deal that can't be upheld, and a secret that couldn't be kept even if it was.

I do think the Adders had an agenda. Put simply, they needed the Horses' cooperation to defeat the Burrocks. Going off into the Deep Periphery to chase down the Burrocks just wasn't on their agenda, and the Adders, when they made the deal, had no idea where or how extensive the problem was. Contracting the Horses let them keep their focus where it belonged. It closed off a potential avenue of retreat (what if the Burrocks had retreated to the Inner Sphere?), without the Adders having to "taint" themselves by chasing them into the IS. And if all those Adder abtkha the Horses netted were liberally salted with Watch agents, well, so much the better.

And, yes, I think the Sharks might have had something going with the Adders, too. After being "chastised" by the Adders and Vipers, the Sharks basically sat around in Clan space for several years before being given the boot. The battles they did fight actually didn't go half bad for them; and their second line was fighting the Vipers' front line IIRC. When they did get massacred, it was at Salonika (by the Burrocks, in a weird battle I've questioned before), and then at Vinton (by the Coyotes/Society).

The Sharks were on pretty good terms with all the clans that would survive. They were friendly rivals with the Adders, the two shared a strong mutual respect. They had active trade deals and were weakly allied with the Coyotes, Cloud Cobras, Blood Spirits, and Hell's Horses. The only clan that they didn't get along with were the Suckers Steel Vipers. Now, these weren't strong alliances, and any of these clans would have sold even a stronger ally out to survive the Wars of Reaving. But it does open another possible avenue of speculation.

Again, I'm not a fan of a "centuries of treachery" plot. It just doesn't seem possible, and none of the clans involved are the kind who would trade tangible concessions up front for some vaguely specified but very expensive favor deferred into the far-off future. I just don't believe it.

OTOH, the Sharks and Adders are both long-term thinkers. Some kind of long-term arrangement isn't beyond the realm of possibility, as long as it benefits both partners. The events as they happened might also be explained by a short-term arrangement during the war that gave the Sharks the breathing room they needed to move their entire clan (in exchange, presumably, for the Sharks not interfering with the Adders' strategy).

rebs

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The one thing is, it was more than just a few concessions.  The Adders let the Horses go on to the IS in spite of the fact that when they found others trying to do the same thing, they joined the beatdown squad with gusto.  Just ask the Snow Ravens.   And they weren't about to let the Burrocks hook up with all the bandits that hang on the fringes of the near periphery.   The Horses even trialed and won many Adders as abtakha.     

But then in the Homewords, when others were calling for Annihilation or Absorption of the Horses remaining there, they saved them from that fate, by allowing them to form a new Clan.   This allowed them to retain their lives and identity, though it was altered in a way to disassociate them from the others who had left long before.   This was a major favor.   

The Horses in the IS may or may not plan to honor the Adders should they return.  But I think at the very least, the one Clan that will not have to worry about retribution as much as the others is the Hell's Horses.  At least that. 

But as we say, its just speculation on the part of fans who only know what we have been allowed to know and in ways that can leave a good bit of doubt regarding veracity and accuracy and even the completeness on the part of the one who complied the info.  Semi Kalasa herself may not even know the whole truth about many of the things in her report.  She had to rely on second hand reports for much of that info.   If some of those sources gained their knowledge first-hand that is.  Maybe they had to rely on reports of others, or notes from dead operatives and the like - then it would be third and maybe fourth-hand knowledge.  I'm sure I don't have to break down what kind of problems that could cause.  And certainly, in many cases, inaccuracies caused by this type of information gathering are beyond her control.   But couple them with any Fox Shark spin or slant, and we're left with more questions than answers. 

« Last Edit: 12 February 2013, 02:40:07 by rebs »

Dreyf

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The 'favor' of allowing the Horses in the Homeworlds to form a new clan also benefited the Star Adders greatly.  It gave them an ally in the Grand Council that they knew they could rely on.  Even in WoR:S the Lions are still a solid ally in the Grand Council on matters that are important to the Adders.

The Adders have benefited from the arrangement and I would not think that anything else was 'owed' to them due to it.

wellspring

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The 'favor' of allowing the Horses in the Homeworlds to form a new clan also benefited the Star Adders greatly.  It gave them an ally in the Grand Council that they knew they could rely on.  Even in WoR:S the Lions are still a solid ally in the Grand Council on matters that are important to the Adders.

The Adders have benefited from the arrangement and I would not think that anything else was 'owed' to them due to it.

This probably has drifted into fodder for the Star Adder thread. But the way they played the mathematics of the Grand Council in Wars of Reaving was simply masterful.

StCptMara

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This probably has drifted into fodder for the Star Adder thread. But the way they played the mathematics of the Grand Council in Wars of Reaving was simply masterful.

Yeah....tell me about it. I keep really hoping that there is something wrong in the reports, since...well..they are in-universe.
How good is the Diamond Shark Watch supposed to be? On a scale of Homeworlds Clan(worst) to Jade Falcon (Best)?
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rebs

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Well, the Falcons like to say they are the best (surprise, surprise...), and certainly, they are good.

But if someone truly had "the Best" Clan Watch operation, they would be ill-served by actually bragging about it.  That's my opinion, of course.  But it is true. 

Certainly, the scope of the Wars of Reaving as a document shows that the Shark Watch is pretty extensive.  They do go anywhere, after all. 
« Last Edit: 12 February 2013, 13:40:59 by rebs »

GhostBear

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Yeah....tell me about it. I keep really hoping that there is something wrong in the reports, since...well..they are in-universe.
How good is the Diamond Shark Watch supposed to be? On a scale of Homeworlds Clan(worst) to Jade Falcon (Best)?

At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.
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Rainbow 6

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So pretty good then.

StCptMara

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At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.

Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).
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wellspring

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Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).

WoR and ISP3 both mention this.

In FM:WC, the Sharks bragged about having the best intelligence branch in the clans, with the possible exception of the Star Adders. In FM:CC, the Star Adders had a dedicated intelligence branch, supervised by front-line personnel, and similarly bragged about its effectiveness. Both clans had this pretty much from the beginning (though other clans considered it dezgra). Some credit for the Sharks goes to Semi Kalasa, who is a brilliant spymaster first and a Loremaster fifth or sixth, but it's always been there.

Clan intelligence operations have always been a bit of an oxymoron. But each supplement seems to show far greater intelligence apparatus than the ones before. I can't tell how much of this represents upgrades made in the wake of Operation Revival, and how much of it has always been there but not talked about, revealed slowly over time.

StCptMara

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Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?
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rebs

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At this point, the Shark Watch is equivalent in ability to the LIC and could probably rival the ISF in operational skills.


So pretty good then.

It would be interesting to see how the Clan Watches stack up against one another.  The Jade Falcons developed a good Watch, considering they were loath to actually implement such a thing according to Kael Pershaw's remarks in Falcon Guard.  The Sharks obviously have some good stuff going for their efforts as well. 

I wonder about the Wolf Watch.  Star Colonel Ramil Kerensky was a great character for his brief shining moments, pulling off the greatest heist in BT (Clan) lore. Or is that Kerensky Fiat?  ;D   I imagine the Shark Watch is better, but the spy apparatus of the Clans is pretty interesting considering their vastly different approaches to it.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2013, 03:14:30 by rebs »

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Interesting. How did they learn to be that good? I usually think that only the Jade Falcon Watch was any good of the Clans,
the rest being only slightly better then (modern history) SAFE  (SAFE in the Age of War seemed to be pretty competent).

Where most Clans staffed their Watch with members of the warrior caste (many of who are considered undesirables), the Diamond Shark's Watch is dominated by their merchant caste who look beyond simple immediate gains.  They frequently offered secondary targets to the warrior caste that can give the Clan a net gain even if they lose the main battle or at least mitigate the defeat.  In addition, until the Wars of Reaving, they controlled the Chatterweb which provided them with invaluable information over the years.

As far as I am aware Clan Wolf's watch was considered superior to Clan Jade Falcon's, who had a hard time accepting the dishonorable nature of the Watch.  Even after being forced to recognize the necessity of the Watch, the Jade Falcons obstructed their efforts by strictly limiting "underhanded" covert operations.
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