Campaign starting in Tempe, AZ

[Joel47]

It's a soft cap -- each unit over four reduces your total BV cap by 5% (150 in a 3000 BV game).  That would make Savannah Masters #5 and up cost 365 instead of 215.

As far as picking a side rather than being randomly placed, these early missions will be symmetric -- it won't matter which side you're on, your mission will be the same.  After that, hopefully you have a relatively well-rounded force that will allow you to bring something useful for either side.  I don't intend to back off the random side placement, as that will lead either to unbalanced teams (good players wanting to team up) or stagnant teams (the same people on the same teams every game) -- or both.

[Hellraiser]

I don't intend to back off the random side placement, as that will lead either to unbalanced teams (good players wanting to team up) or stagnant teams (the same people on the same teams every game) -- or both.

While I can see a potential imbalance, I'm not sure its any different than the old method you always used where we picked sides based on the Faction/Mission for the scenario you provided.
 I mean we always kind of knew Jarod, John, & Jason would go Falcons while Jim would go FedSuns & I would go FedCom or Wolf......etc etc etc.....assuming of course those were factions offered.
 The Random method itself has the potential to stick all the vets to a single side, though not likely to happen many times over.
 I was just thinking the choosing of Attacker v/s Defender based on the mission objective would open up a lot of alternative scenarios (breakout/lineholder etc) while not penalizing a person for not having a well balanced force. 
 After all, I doubt most forces have as much built in versatility as mine did by attempting to "break" the rules for you, to make sure they were balanced.

[Joel47]

The Random method itself has the potential to stick all the vets to a single side, though not likely to happen many times over.

...Whereas choosing sides could lead to an imbalance almost every game.

I was just thinking the choosing of Attacker v/s Defender based on the mission objective would open up a lot of alternative scenarios (breakout/lineholder etc) while not penalizing a person for not having a well balanced force. 

But what if I want to penalize those without balanced forces?  :D  Missions will be symmetric for the next two games at least, allowing everyone to patch any gaps in their lineups.

[BirdofPrey]

To try & pre-plan for that you would need Fast-C3, Fast-C3i, Fast-SG/LRM, Slow-C3, Slow-C3i, Slow-SG/LRM, Slow-AAA, etc etc etc forces, and quickly make even the largest of stables fail to cover every option.

So like I said, the ability to "pick a side" as we have always done will certainly have some merit as the campaign moves on.

I doubt you need to cover EVERY option.  Mixing C3 and C3i in one force is probably a bad decision for one, and I'm not sure you'd want to build a force specifically around TAG and SG-LRMS specifically; rather you choose to run fire support units packing LRMs and semi-guided ammo is a sub-choice (you can use NARC, artemis or the option to use special munitions instead).  Beyond that, you probably don't need to do anything beyond 1 or 2 options for each side in asymmetric scenarios; sure you can't plan, but everyone has a different play-style so certain holes would fill themselves naturally.

The biggest problem I see with planning to be a specific side is if someone doesn't show up, or somone does show up without saying they will.  There's going to have to be a number of players that float to cover for that and they will be in the situation you describe, which could, potentially, leave them at a disadvantage of the people who did declare a side.

Advanced is just things like artillery, so they cost the same as standard unit.

Remember the caveat for advanced rules, though -- if it slows down the game too much or proves unbalanced, you will have a suspicious fire in your 'mech bay, grudgingly covered by insurance.  8)

Speaking of artillery, what are your thoughts on it?

But what if I want to penalize those without balanced forces?  :D  Missions will be symmetric for the next two games at least, allowing everyone to patch any gaps in their lineups.

I hope I don't get screwed.  I'm not entirely sure how balanced my force is, but I am leaning towards not very at this point.  Think I need more bigger mechs with real guns on them.

[Joel47]

Speaking of artillery, what are your thoughts on it?

On-board artillery is fine -- just make sure you know the rules well so questions don't slow things down.  Off-board artillery is a no, as people would have to have their own in order to perform counter-arty, or we'd need to allow fast 'mechs to run off your edge in order to go kill it (a possibility, but I'm not fond of the added complexity).

[Hellraiser]

I doubt you need to cover EVERY option.  Mixing C3 and C3i in one force is probably a bad decision for one, and I'm not sure you'd want to build a force specifically around TAG and SG-LRMS specifically; rather you choose to run fire support units packing LRMs and semi-guided ammo is a sub-choice (you can use NARC, artemis or the option to use special munitions instead).  Beyond that, you probably don't need to do anything beyond 1 or 2 options for each side in asymmetric scenarios; sure you can't plan, but everyone has a different play-style so certain holes would fill themselves naturally. 

I'm not talking about mixing them in a single unit.
For this example lets say we have 4 players.  Each w/ 2 units.
A.  2x C3i
B.  2x  C3i
C.  C3M + C3S
D.  C3S x2
Now under our old method, players A & B were probably WoB/C* lovers and would likely play for the same side and be able to link their C3i systems.
Likewise players C & D could link up to form a regular C3 Lance.
Assuming the battle was say,  WoB v/s DC,  they would have picked sides ahead of time and possibly even emailed each other to decide who was bringing what units so they didn't have all Fire-Support units and no spotters or all spotters w/o any Fire Support or who was bringing the Master unit for a C3 force,  etc etc etc.

Random assignment however tosses that all out the window and could likely pair up A & C against B & D.  In this case A & C both have small 2 man networks,  B also has a 2 man & D is out the ability to use C3 at all.

Basically, the random assignment makes the old BV sharing rule we used about "networks" of C3 & TAG nearly useless since there is no way to play for ever being paired up w/ a person that is also fielding your type of "network" option.

The biggest problem I see with planning to be a specific side is if someone doesn't show up, or somone does show up without saying they will.  There's going to have to be a number of players that float to cover for that and they will be in the situation you describe, which could, potentially, leave them at a disadvantage of the people who did declare a side.

In all likelyhood we have players who declare for both sides.
That is how it tended to go in the past,  w/ several for each side choosing either faction.
Then we would have a few show up w/o any preference and fit in to balance out the sides.
Or we would have a couple prepared to play for either side.
Or at the very list, if we did get an imbalance, Joel knew about it ahead of time from all the requests and we had a couple people purposely come prepared to switch sides at the last minute if needed.
I don't think its an issue of people not showing up unless there is some emergency, if its someone you've talked to ahead of time they either know they are coming or aren't.

I'm not entirely sure how balanced my force is, but I am leaning towards not very at this point.  Think I need more bigger mechs with real guns on them.

Well if I'm remembering right, the force you brought last time had a "Tracked" assault Mech supreme in that Ajax-Omni brought, and a very nice recon unit in the Owens.

If anything I think the Atlas would be the most imbalanced atm, 3K bv in 1 unit only leaves 1K SP to bring recon units.  Though, it was a 3 gunner so maybe more like 1500 SP left for smaller units.

[BirdofPrey]

I've got 4 omnis, so I don't think I'll be wanting for variety that much.  My concern is a lack of mechs.  I have the Owens and a Strider and 4 vehicles.  The vehicles have decent firepower, but lack maneuverability, and the mechs are better suited to scuiting and skirmisher roles than front-line combat.  C3 does help by letting me use the fast mechs to bring heavy firepower of the tanks to bear, but I'd still like to have a heavy mech or two that can actually march up to the enemy or take advantage of cover, since I can't rely on C3 every time.  I also have a shortage of masters to build a network with.

[Hellraiser]

Thanatos & Grasshopper both make good big in your face spotters,  as does the Zerker-C3

[BirdofPrey]

I'll keep those in mind
C3 compatibility, while nice, isn't strictly necessary, though.  The lightest C3 Master I could find is the Mongoose II with more than 1200 BV, so I'm gonna have to wait till the BV cap per for each game till I can actually field C3 Slaves over 60 tons or so.  That means, I should stick to Mediums for the moment or run un-networked heavies.  I suppose I could network a heavy C3S with a Light C3S, but that hinges upon someone else bringing a master, and we've already gone over how that's going to be a pain in the ass.  Is there even someone besides me who actually has a C3 ready force?

Once I can field them, what do you think of the MAD-9W2?  It's a bit slow, but 5 IJJs should help compensate, it's got a C3S covered by An ECM suite so I can run ECCM to keep my network online and a heavy Gyro and light engine should hopefully let it keep going with heavier damage than other project Phoenix Marauders.  I was also looking at the WHM-8D and the BKX-8D, but I'd have to switch affiliations since Steiner doesn't field them. 

In the Medium Bracket, theres a Stealth and a few Wolverine Variants I am looking at right now.  There's also a Quickdraw variant that might have low enough BV for me to run with the Mongoose and still have the few hundred left for the links.

Still looking through the list of C3 units to find something good.

I'm also looking at getting a little bit of infantry, but my main concern with that is that I am unsure about getting them around the battlefield (I can run a couple of BA squads at least, the Owens is certainly fast enough to get a squad into the thick of things quickly, and the Strider might work too.  Wish I could field a Firemoth).  I haven't used them all that much, and I think I'd much rather have carrier vehicles that are still useful after dropping off their load even if it is just a couple of machine guns.

[Hellraiser]

The lightest C3 Master I could find is the Mongoose II with more than 1200 BV,

Well its not "Lighter" but for less BV at least is the Maxim-I variant that uses C3M.
I want to say its like 800ish.

Is there even someone besides me who actually has a C3 ready force?

Don't know about anyone else but atm I have 1 mech that is C3S.
I have another mech that is being refitted to carry C3S.
And I have a vehicle that I "might" refit at a later date to carry C3S.
As for C3M, I don't have any yet.
Honestly, I think the only way I'll get C3M is if I make a custom Omni-Pod layout for it since none of my units has a version that carries it at this time.

what do you think of the MAD-9W2?  It's a bit slow, but 5 IJJs should help compensate, it's got a C3S covered by An ECM suite so I can run ECCM to keep my network online and a heavy Gyro and light engine should hopefully let it keep going with heavier damage than other project Phoenix Marauders.  I was also looking at the WHM-8D and the BKX-8D, but I'd have to switch affiliations since Steiner doesn't field them. 

I'm unfamiliar w/ that MAD, is it actually a 100 ton Mad-II model ?
Never used it but if its what I am thinking of then I heard Joel mention it once.
The Whammer is a brute, I like it a lot, but I've never used that BKX model ever.
Switching faction is easy, we can do it every game from now on. 
It really only comes into play if you decide to spend your points after a game, you can only buy stuff from what ever your last faction was.

In the Medium Bracket, theres a Stealth and a few Wolverine Variants I am looking at right now.  There's also a Quickdraw variant that might have low enough BV for me to run with the Mongoose and still have the few hundred left for the links.

Don't know the Stealth variant but the Wolverine-8K iirc is a C3 model that is a nice in close brawler/spotter.  The issue I see is that the Mongoose & Wolvy are both weak in terms of long ranged damage, so neither one is your FireSupport unit that benefits from the C3 link.
Better to stick w/ the Ajax for now, IMHO, its a monster that dishes out lots of pain at range.

I can run a couple of BA squads at least, the Owens is certainly fast enough to get a squad into the thick of things quickly

I would just stick a squad on the Ajax & the Owens, one for added defense of the FS unit & 1 to deploy in close while you spotting.

Wish I could field a Firemoth

You can, if you use WiE as your boss you can buy a FireMoth, though it will be rather expensive.
They range from A-578 to D-1916 in BV and I think clan tech is double Advanced IS tech ?  So over 1K SP but a couple wins can pay for it.

[BirdofPrey]

Well its not "Lighter" but for less BV at least is the Maxim-I variant that uses C3M.
I want to say its like 800ish.

  Thanks, Didn't notice that, usually do my searching on Sarna, but vehicles don't have a C3 category.  Not sure if I want to use a hover in such a critical role, though.  Added to that, the firepower on the Maxim points every which way.  With Joel giving the go ahead on artillery, I was also looking at the Schiltron, the prime variant is only about 1400 BV and I can keep it away from combat.

Update:  Through pure chance I noticed the Partisan has a C3M variant for pennies more than the Maxim

I'm unfamiliar w/ that MAD, is it actually a 100 ton Mad-II model ?
Never used it but if its what I am thinking of then I heard Joel mention it once.

It's in TRO 3085. It utilizes a light enegine of lower rating than normal but has improved jump jets so it moves 3/5/5;  It also uses a Heavy Duty Gyro.  It has a C3S and ECM suite and is armed with 2 ER Large Lasers 2 Medium Pulse lasers and a Snub-Nose PPC.

Don't know the Stealth variant but the Wolverine-8K iirc is a C3 model that is a nice in close brawler/spotter.  The issue I see is that the Mongoose & Wolvy are both weak in terms of long ranged damage, so neither one is your FireSupport unit that benefits from the C3 link.

I was working under the Idea C3 could be used to improve short ranged weaponry as well just as long as you get someone into knife fighting ranges, but I can see your point in lacking long range fire support.

Better to stick w/ the Ajax for now, IMHO, its a monster that dishes out lots of pain at range.

I'll probably be doing that for a few games, but it's nice to have more options.  I can't use the same units every game.  Besides, a lower BV master would give me leeway to deploy other units or use spotters with actual teeth.  I also happen to be itching to try the Ajax Variant with 3 RAC-5s, but that's a C3S varaint

I would just stick a squad on the Ajax & the Owens, one for added defense of the FS unit & 1 to deploy in close while you spotting.

I'll probably have to do that[/quote]Really wish I could add handholds to battlemechs so I have more than just the Owens hauling around troops.  What other haulage options do I have though?  I can't haul battle armor in the same bay as conventional infantry can I, because I was thinking of getting some PBIs and a couple VTOLs.

You can, if you use WiE as your boss you can buy a FireMoth, though it will be rather expensive.
They range from A-578 to D-1916 in BV and I think clan tech is double Advanced IS tech ?  So over 1K SP but a couple wins can pay for it.

Was the restriction on clan tech just starting units?  I was under the impression it was until Joel says we can use it.

[Hellraiser]

Really wish I could add handholds to battlemechs so I have more than just the Owens hauling around troops.  What other haulage options do I have though?  I can't haul battle armor in the same bay as conventional infantry can I, because I was thinking of getting some PBIs and a couple VTOLs.

Sure you can.  If for example you have a 7 ton bay you could haul a Foot Platoon & a Battle Armor Squad since it is 3+4.
12 Ton bay = 1 Motorized (6tons) & 2 Foot (3tons each) OR, 1x Jump Platoon, & 2 BA Squads,  etc etc.
The game doesn't separate the "kind" of bay, it just gives you the tonnage max.
Its not "fluff" accurate since one bay is likely a bunch of small jumpseats for PBI's while the other has larger doors for BA and large hooks or a small "cradle" to stand in.
But whatever totals your bay amount or less.

Battle Armor can be carried on the outside of your omni-units.
You could even make a custom omnipod load that devotes pod space to added infantry and double up carrying some internally and some externally.

IIRC, you can "overload" a bay and carry as much as the tonnage of the entire unit.
For example Karnov is 6 tons cargo and 30 tons vehicle so you can have it carry up to 36 tons of cargo instead of 6 but at half your MP.

Was the restriction on clan tech just starting units?  I was under the impression it was until Joel says we can use it.

That is 2 different situations.
WiE was NOT allowed as a "starting" faction so you couldn't just start out w/ 4K SP in clan gear.
WiE ARE allowed as a patron from this game forward.  So you can buy things from them.
That said, you have to buy ENTIRE units.  No "clan salvaged ERPPCs" to refit to your Marauder etc etc till he okays it.
So you can pick up a FireMoth if you really want a good BA carrier, but you will have to pay double SP for it iirc from the costs list.

Its a lot cheaper in SP to buy an IS omni and give it clan pods and he wants to avoid that and the issues of mixed tech.
If you bought a L1 Atlas (1/2 price for L1 tech) and gave it a Class-D refit w/ Clan DHS & Weapons you would basically have a monster clan machine for the cost of less than a L2 IS unit in SP and only be out 1 game for the refit.
This way he limits that kind of power gaming and has a "reward" system for in later games where he can give out access to small amounts of clan tech or Experimental IS tech (Reflective Armor, Tandem Charge SRMs, etc etc)
Having to buy a full Timberwolf is a lot different than buying a Marauder and giving it clan PPCs.

[Joel47]

Correct (and better-said than I would have done).  I've seen some horrifying custom 'mechs in previous campaigns due to the mixing of clan and IS tech, and it's because in every sane purchasing system it's cheaper to do it that way than to customize a full-on clantech 'mech, more than offsetting the loss of firepower/survivability.

[Joel47]

Here's the next scenario:

Scouting Report

Saturday, June 11th at Game Depot

Mission Synopsis:  Scout the enemy position while defending yours from their scouts.

Time:  We are scheduled to start at 12:00pm, and will play until 7:00pm, or until the battle is complete -- whichever happens first.

Unit selection:  Miniatures & record sheets for pre-made forces will be provided, or players may bring their own.
•   3000 BV, max four units. 
•   Bringing over four units incurs a penalty: for each unit over four units, the total BV available is reduced by 5% (150 BV).
•   All units must be selected from the player's mercenary force created using our campaign rules: http://tinyurl.com/44bxljf.

Terrain and setup description:  The battle will be held on a 4’ x 6’ map (2” hexes; 24x36) with rolling hills and moderate woods.  There will be small urban areas along each short edge.  The players will be divided randomly into two equal teams, and will move onto the board from opposite (short) sides.

Victory Conditions:  Each player will secretly designate one building on their side as containing a parts cache.  One victory point is scored for each detected parts cache, and one for each of that team's caches that remain undetected.  Each player on the winning team will receive 800 SP for their mercenary force; losers will receive 400 SP.  In the event of a tie, all players will receive 600 SP.  In addition, 5 SP will be granted for detecting a parts cache, and a bonus of 5 SP will be granted to each player on a team for each parts cache that goes undetected for the entire game.  To detect a parts cache, a unit must spend the fire and physical phases of a round adjacent to or inside the building being scanned; no weapons fire or physical attacks are possible during scanning.  Active Probes can scan two buildings within their range, though the unit still cannot make attacks while scanning.  ECM blocks Active Probes within its radius, but not the standard scanning by an adjacent unit.
 
Special Rules:  With a few exceptions, only Total Warfare rules will be used.
•   There is no “edge of the world.”  If a mech is up against a map edge, the three hexes that would be surrounding the mech off the board are now legal hexes for movement; occupying any of those hexes opens up more hexes, etc.
•   The following rules from Tactical Operations will be used:  Floating Crits, Sprinting, Evading, Crawling, Careful Stand, Firing When Down, ECCM.

[BirdofPrey]

I'm guessing no TAG while scanning either?

[Hellraiser]

Well at least there is no reason to go slow, if you can't Shoot or Smash anything you might as well be Running, Jumping, Sprinting, or Evading for max distance/TMM options.

[Joel47]

Correct.  C3 systems work normally, though, as they don't require pilot intervention.

[Jim1701]

That's a good question.  Will we be able to sprint or evade and scan in the same turn?

[Joel47]

No.  Since those movement modes prevent weapons fire, they would also prevent scanning.

[Radec2000]

What is the range of the BAP since one of the units im planning on fielding carries the puppy

[Hellraiser]

What is the range of the BAP since one of the units im planning on fielding carries the puppy

IIRC IS-BAP is a 4 hex radius, though I'm sure TW can confirm that for sure.

[BirdofPrey]

Yep, 4 hexes.

So SG-LRM, can it be dumb fired if the Tagging unit misses or is unable to use its TAG?

Also is the standard variant of the LRM carrier (the old one from way bak when) available with a TW style record sheet?  All I have is the older style record sheets with 2 vehicles to a page and no crit tables.

[Joel47]

So SG-LRM, can it be dumb fired if the Tagging unit misses or is unable to use its TAG?

Yes, though you're better off taking a ton or two of standard ammo for when the TAG misses to save BV.

Also is the standard variant of the LRM carrier (the old one from way bak when) available with a TW style record sheet? 

RS3039 Unabridged, p122.

[BirdofPrey]

Yes, though you're better off taking a ton or two of standard ammo for when the TAG misses to save BV.

If I stick with the current plan, I'm only going to have one unit with TAG so a ton of SG-LRM ammo only adds 23 BV to my force, not enough to get me another unit or upgrade my pilots.  I was thinking of taking some ARAD LRMs to use against anyone who brings BAP and ECM to the field.

RS3039 Unabridged, p122.

Which isn't available at the moment, because they are doing fact checking and fixing all the errors.

[Kotetsu]

Which isn't available at the moment, because they are doing fact checking and fixing all the errors.

Really? I think I bought mine from DriveThru...  #P

[Joel47]

Thanks!  (Link)

[BirdofPrey]

Never used them.
Am I going to get the new updated version when Catalyst finishes fixing the errors in the last version?  They have two print versions listed, which makes me think they are replacing the record sheets completely and giving them new catalog numbers.  I'd hate to buy something that is going to be obsolete in a few weeks (the same reason I haven't bought record sheets for 3067)

[Joel47]

The print versions don't cover as much as the PDF.  To my knowledge (though someone will probably want to ask the powers-that-be to be sure) it's just error-checking and correction.

If that's the only sheet you need, let me know and I'll print one for you.

[BirdofPrey]

I know all about the differences between the print and PDF  versions, and I already mentioned why the Unabridged PDF isn't out at the moment.
My concern is that I am not sure if they are going to update the current record sheet pdf or replace it outright.

Anyways.  Couple of things. 
It would be awesome if we could do something like a shared google docs spreadsheet  to keep our forces tracked.  You post mission SP gains and XP for each pilot, and we can post up new units purchases and modifications on it, so things are easier to track on each side (The spreadsheets you did have us use need a page to track ammo, repairs and refits, by the way)
Second, how are pilot skill gains being handled?  Are we burning XP to raise skills or is that just the minimum skill required for a level and no XP is actually spent on raising the skills?

[Hellraiser]

You burn the XP to raise the skill.

So if raising Gunnery from 4 to 3 is 5XP, you have to have a pilot w/ 6 XP available and then spend it on the Gunnery upgrade, which puts him back down to 1 xp etc etc.

As you can see, it will take quite a long time to be getting any 0/0 pilots.