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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 148063 times)

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1050 on: 11 November 2019, 09:54:52 »
Argus AGS-6F fixed. Thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1051 on: 11 November 2019, 10:03:12 »
Arctic Wolf II Prime and Arctic Wolf II A
Issue: The listed Alpha Strike stats for both units are correct, but they are flipped. What is listed for the A belongs to the PRIME, and vice-versa.

Fixed. Thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1052 on: 11 November 2019, 10:06:26 »
About to play an AS game up to the Jihad era and was planning on taking a 9W2 as one of my units.

Next time, could you actually mention the full designation instead of just "9W2"? :)

Added DC for Jihad era to WVR-9W2.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1053 on: 11 November 2019, 10:14:02 »
The other is it is listed with a PV of 50, whereas I calculate it with a PV of 40. So I've no idea where the 10 extra PV is coming from.
The MAS special gives a minimum Defense Factor of 3?

IF fixed (and PV adjusted).  Thanks.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2019, 10:18:02 by nckestrel »
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mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1054 on: 11 November 2019, 12:53:37 »
The MAS special gives a minimum Defense Factor of 3?

IF fixed (and PV adjusted).  Thanks.

Ignore my previous response if you read it already. I realized my error in multiplying 3 * 0.1 instead of 0.25. Final PV of 49 is indeed correct!
« Last Edit: 11 November 2019, 12:59:15 by mordel »

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1055 on: 11 November 2019, 17:16:07 »
Assassin ASN-30
Issue: The unit is listed as having the FLK0*/0*/0* special. However, it only contains a single LB 5-X AC, which does 0.236 damage (Short) or 0.315 damage (Medium and Long). Rounded up to the nearest tenth and then rounded normally makes each range bracket 0. The FLK special does not indicate damage values between 0 and 0.5 should be listed as 0* (as it does for IF). As such, the unit should not have the FLK special.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1056 on: 11 November 2019, 17:25:23 »
The ASN-30 is correct.  There's no requirement for 1 damage, minimal damage applies to all damage. 
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mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1057 on: 11 November 2019, 18:58:23 »
The ASN-30 is correct.  There's no requirement for 1 damage, minimal damage applies to all damage.

Thanks. I think the FLK special is the only one that doesn't specifically reference minimal damage or minimum damage. The other specials which do not have a minimum specifically call it out in their descriptions.

REAR states "...rounding normally, with pre-rounded damage values between 0 and 0.5 represented as a Minimal Damage (0*) value." (ASC, pg. 129)
IF states "(If the unit’s Indirect Fire attack value, after heat-modification and before final damage rounding, is greater than 0, but less than 0.5, the unit receives an IF0* special..." (ASC, pg. 125)

All other specials have a minimum damage requirement, but they also state it. So I think with FLK, the way it's written, you're left guessing. Can we add some errata so it is clearly defined, and keep it inline with the other specials? 

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1058 on: 16 November 2019, 16:30:20 »
Atlas AS7-00 (Jurn)
Issue: The long-range damage should be 4; not 3 as listed (conversion breakdown below). Additionally, the unit does not contain any equipment that adds to the MHQ ability, so it shouldn't have the MHQ1 it currently has. The PV value is correct.

Code: (Long Range Damage) [Select]
====================================================================================================================================
Determine Long Range Damage Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heat Efficiency:               Unit is efficient                                                                                 
     32 (Heat Sinks)                                                                                                      =       32
     2 (Movement) + 24 (Weapons) - 4 (Base)                                                                 (-)       22  =       10
                                                                                                                                   
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                                                    =    0.000
     Light PPC                                                                                              (+)    0.500  =    0.500
     Light PPC                                                                                              (+)    0.500  =    1.000
     Hyper-Velocity AC/10                                                                                   (+)    1.000  =    2.000
     Thunderbolt 15              [Insufficient Ammo]                                                        (+)    1.125  =    3.125
                                                                                                                                   
  Heat-modified damage value:                                                                                                       
     Rounded up to the nearest tenth                                                                                      =      3.2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Long Range Damage Value:                                                                                                     4

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1059 on: 16 November 2019, 16:38:45 »
Atlas AS7-A
Issue: The short range damage should be 4; not the 5 that's listed. It's right on that line because of heat between being 4 and 5, so perhaps the initial calculations were off. This also impacted the PV as it lowers it to 52. I've included both conversion breakdowns below for reference.

Code: (Short Range Damage) [Select]
=====================================================================================================================================
Determine Short Range Damage Value
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heat Efficiency:               Unit is inefficient                                                                                 
     20 (Heat Sinks)                                                                                                      =        20
     2 (Movement) + 31 (Weapons) - 4 (Base)                                                                 (-)       29  =        -9
                                                                                                                                     
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                                                    =     0.000
     LRM 10                                                                                                 (+)    0.300  =     0.300
     Autocannon/5                                                                                           (+)    0.375  =     0.675
     Medium Laser                                                                                           (+)    0.500  =     1.175
     Medium Laser                                                                                           (+)    0.500  =     1.675
     SRM 6                                                                                                  (+)    0.800  =     2.475
     SRM 6                                                                                                  (+)    0.800  =     3.275
     SRM 6                                                                                                  (+)    0.800  =     4.075
     SRM 6                                                                                                  (+)    0.800  =     4.875
     SRM 6                                                                                                  (+)    0.800  =     5.675
                                                                                                                                     
  Heat-modified damage value:                                                                                                       
     Damage subtotal multipled by the total heat dissipation                                                (*)       20  =   113.500
     Divided by the maximum heat output - 4                                                                 (/)       29  =     3.914
     Rounded up to the nearest tenth                                                                                      =       4.0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Short Range Damage Value:                                                                                                     4


Code: (Point Value) [Select]
=====================================================================================================================================
Determine Point Value
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Unit's Offensive Value:                                                                                                           
     Attack Damage Factor        4 (Short) + 5 (Medium) + 5 (Medium) + 2 (Long)                                           =    16.000
     Unit Size Factor            4 (Weight/Size Class) / 2                                                  (+)    2.000  =    18.000
     Overheat Factor             1 (Base OV) + 0.5 (0.5 per OV > 1)                                         (+)    1.500  =    19.500
     Special Ability Factor      [IF1] 1 (Ability Rating)                                                   (+)    1.000  =    20.500
     Blanket Offensive Modifier  1 (Base)                                                                   (*)    1.000  =    20.500
                                                                                                                                     
  Defensive Interaction Rating:                                                                                                     
     Armor Factor                10 (Armor) x 2.0 (Non-Vehicle Unit)                                                      =    20.000
     Structure Factor            8 (Structure) x 1.0 (Other Unit)                                           (+)    8.000  =    28.000
     Defense Factor              1 + {[1 (6" Move)] x 0.1}                                                  (*)    1.100  =    30.800
     Final DIR                   Round to nearest half point                                                              =    31.000
                                                                                                                                     
  Unit's Defensive Value:                                                                                                           
     Movement Factor             0.75 (0.25 per 2")                                                                       =     0.750
     Final DIR                   Defensive Interaction Rating                                               (+)   31.000  =    31.750
                                                                                                                                     
  Unit's Final Point Value:                                                                                                         
     Offensive Value                                                                                                      =    20.500
     Defensive Value                                                                                        (+)   31.750  =    52.250
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Point Value:                                                                                                                 52

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1060 on: 16 November 2019, 16:51:44 »
Regarding the Atlas AS7-00 (Jurn), I happened across another MHQ1 on a different Atlas where I didn't think it should be. I noticed that Atlas also had a Command Console so figured I'd search the forums, and found THIS post from 2014. Looks like there was a question around it, and perhaps the ultimate decision should be that the Command Console indeed does add to the MHQ ability. But this was never added to the errata thread or subsequent updates. 

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1061 on: 22 November 2019, 23:30:54 »
Re-posting as this was from over a month ago without a response, and want to make sure it wasn't missed or forgotten about.

Arbalest 2
Issue: Movement is listed as 10" but it should be 12" since the unit is equipped with MASC. Subsequently the PV is 24 due to the speed increase. Calculations below.

Code: (Movement Calculation) [Select]
=======================================================================================================
Convert Movement and Movement Modes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ground Movement:               5 (Walk)                                                     =     10"
     Equipped with MASC                                                          (*)    1.25  =     12"
     Ground Target Movement Modifier at 12" is 2                                                       
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Movement and Movement Modes:                                                                  12"

Code: (Point Value Calculation) [Select]
=======================================================================================================
Determine Point Value
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Unit's Offensive Value:                                                                             
     Attack Damage Factor        2 (Short) + 2 (Medium) + 2 (Medium) + 1 (Long)               =   7.000
     Unit Size Factor            1 (Weight/Size Class) / 2                       (+)   0.500  =   7.500
     Overheat Factor             0 (Overheat)                                    (+)   0.000  =   7.500
     Special Ability Factor      [IF1] 1 (Ability Rating)                        (+)   1.000  =   8.500
     Blanket Offensive Modifier  1 (Base)                                        (*)   1.000  =   8.500
                                                                                                       
  Defensive Interaction Rating:                                                                       
     Armor Factor                3 (Armor) x 2.0 (Non-Vehicle Unit)                           =   6.000
     Structure Factor            2 (Structure) x 1.0 (Other Unit)                (+)   2.000  =   8.000
     Defense Factor              1 + {[2 (12" Move)] x 0.1}                      (*)   1.200  =   9.600
     Final DIR                   Round to nearest half point                                  =   9.500
                                                                                                       
  Unit's Defensive Value:                                                                             
     Movement Factor             1.5 (0.25 per 2")                                            =   1.500
     Final DIR                   Defensive Interaction Rating                    (+)   9.500  =  11.000
                                                                                                       
  Unit's Final Point Value:                                                                           
     Offensive Value                                                                          =   8.500
     Defensive Value                                                             (+)  11.000  =  19.500
     Agile                       2 (TMM) - 1 x 2 (Medium)                        (+)   2.000  =  21.500
     Force Bonus                 [ECM] Electronic Countermeasures                (+)   2.000  =  23.500
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Point Value:                                                                                   24

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1062 on: 22 November 2019, 23:32:14 »
Another one from over a month ago with no response, so re-posting.

Arcas 3
Issue: Both the short-range damage and medium-range damage is listed as 4 with an overheat of 1. They should both, however, be 5 with an overheat of 0. I think the issue may have been that the unit was calculated as if it had standard jump jets, but it has improved, so movement heat is halved, making the unit heat efficient. As a result of the change, PV is impacted as well. I've included the short, medium, and PV calculations below for reference.

Code: (Short-Range Damage) [Select]
============================================================================================================
Determine Short Range Damage Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heat Efficiency:               Unit is efficient                                                         
     30 (Heat Sinks)                                                                              =       30
     3.5 (Movement) + 29 (Weapons) - 4 (Base)                                       (-)     28.5  =      1.5
                                                                                                           
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                            =    0.000
     Streak SRM 4                                                                   (+)    0.800  =    0.800
     Medium Pulse Laser          [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    0.847  =    1.647
     Medium Pulse Laser          [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    0.847  =    2.494
     Heavy Large Laser           [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    1.672  =    4.166
                                                                                                           
  Heat-modified damage value:                                                                               
     Damage subtotal rounded up to the nearest tenth                                              =      4.2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Short Range Damage Value:                                                                            5

Code: (Medium-Range Damage) [Select]
============================================================================================================
Determine Medium Range Damage Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heat Efficiency:               Unit is efficient                                                         
     30 (Heat Sinks)                                                                              =       30
     3.5 (Movement) + 29 (Weapons) - 4 (Base)                                       (-)     28.5  =      1.5
                                                                                                           
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                            =    0.000
     Streak SRM 4                                                                   (+)    0.800  =    0.800
     Medium Pulse Laser          [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    0.847  =    1.647
     Medium Pulse Laser          [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    0.847  =    2.494
     Heavy Large Laser           [Targeting Computer]                               (+)    1.672  =    4.166
                                                                                                           
  Heat-modified damage value:                                                                               
     Damage subtotal rounded up to the nearest tenth                                              =      4.2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Medium Range Damage Value:                                                                           5

Code: (Point Value) [Select]
============================================================================================================
Determine Point Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Unit's Offensive Value:                                                                                   
     Attack Damage Factor        5 (Short) + 5 (Medium) + 5 (Medium) + 0 (Long)                   =   15.000
     Unit Size Factor            3 (Weight/Size Class) / 2                          (+)    1.500  =   16.500
     Overheat Factor             0 (Overheat)                                       (+)    0.000  =   16.500
     Blanket Offensive Modifier  1 (Base)                                           (*)    1.000  =   16.500
                                                                                                           
  Defensive Interaction Rating:                                                                             
     Armor Factor                7 (Armor) x 2.0 (Non-Vehicle Unit)                               =   14.000
     Structure Factor            4 (Structure) x 1.0 (Other Unit)                   (+)    4.000  =   18.000
     Defense Factor              1 + {[2 (10" Move)] x 0.1}                         (*)    1.200  =   21.600
     Final DIR                   Round to nearest half point                                      =   21.500
                                                                                                           
  Unit's Defensive Value:                                                                                   
     Movement Factor             1.75 (0.25 per 2") + 0.5 (Jump-capable)                          =    2.250
     Final DIR                   Defensive Interaction Rating                       (+)   21.500  =   23.750
                                                                                                           
  Unit's Final Point Value:                                                                                 
     Offensive Value                                                                              =   16.500
     Defensive Value                                                                (+)   23.750  =   40.250
     Agile                       2 (TMM) - 1 x 5 (Medium)                           (+)    5.000  =   45.250
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Point Value:                                                                                        45

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1063 on: 22 November 2019, 23:41:23 »
Thanks for all the updates and confirmations! Two final questions (I hope) on the Taser.

1) It's currently not listed in the 'ALPHA STRIKE WEAPON CONVERSION TABLE', so am assuming Errata would need to add the 0.1 at short range?
2) The part that makes it confusing (and why I initially thought it was intentionally left out for damage purposes) is that ASCE p.90 states "All Taser attacks are resolved separately,..." This led me to believe that the ability itself was what the taser granted, and thus why no damage was allocated for it. Does it get the Taser damage AND the special attack?

Bringing this back up again as it's been over a month, as more clarification/consideration is needed. The way everything is in ASC currently is that the taser does no damage. The MTAS special even states "The Taser attack itself delivers no damage,..." So I believe there are really two options here:

  • It does no damage, everything in ASC is correct and no update is required. The MUL entry needs tweaking.
  • It does damage, MUL is correct. But ASC needs errata to add the weapon to the table, and the MTAS special needs tweaking so it doesn't contradict.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1064 on: 22 November 2019, 23:58:37 »
The answer is 2.  I’m buried in class work right now, errata will have to wait.
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mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1065 on: 23 November 2019, 20:52:01 »
The answer is 2.  I’m buried in class work right now, errata will have to wait.

You mean you don't have unlimited volunteer hours to answer forum questions?!?! :D

Just kidding. Thanks for the quick answer on the taser. Now go get good grades!

Andrew_Cluetain

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1066 on: 08 December 2019, 22:32:47 »
From a completely random look, I found a minor MUL error on http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1283/great-wyrm-aemelia
The mech in question is a 45 toner, but is listed as SZ:1, probably an old typo but should be SZ: 2.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1067 on: 01 January 2020, 02:28:55 »
It's nice that the MUL lists which sourcebooks the units may be found in, but the links point to the defunct BattleCorps site.  Any chance of getting the links reset to the Catalyst store entries?
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Valkerie

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1068 on: 08 January 2020, 15:25:00 »
Not a big issue, but noticed the new artwork for the Timber Wolf does not appear on the Prime version.  Seems to be correct on all the other variants.
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Valkerie

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1070 on: 09 January 2020, 00:44:30 »
That was what I was trying to say.  Apologies for not making that clear. :)
There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.   -Machiavelli

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Maelwys

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1072 on: 09 January 2020, 22:03:38 »
Is there any particular reason the MUL Eras don't match up with the eras and sub eras presented in IO on page 14? For instance, the MUL has the late succession Wars split into Lostech and Renaissance, while IO just has Early and Late, and the MUL has the Dark Ages split into Early Republic, Late Republic, Dage Ages, while IO has it split into two (Republic Era and Late Dark Ages)

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1073 on: 09 January 2020, 23:27:00 »
The MUL has divided the IO eras into sub eras to have more granularity.  Individual years was too much work for little use, while the eras weren’t enough information.  So we spit the eras into sub eras.  They still match up, there shouldn’t be a sub era that belongs to multiple eras.
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Insaniac99

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1074 on: 10 January 2020, 12:01:22 »
The MUL has divided the IO eras into sub eras to have more granularity.  Individual years was too much work for little use, while the eras weren’t enough information.  So we spit the eras into sub eras.  They still match up, there shouldn’t be a sub era that belongs to multiple eras.

Is one list more official than the other, or more correct?  In the process of Updating SSW we noticed it is missing eras and there seems to be no consistency in the direction of the "correct" era listing. For example:

  Megamek has been told to use one set to support the canon record sheets (Age of War, Star League, Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age).

 The Master Unit List uses another (Age of War, Star League, Early Succession War, Late Succession War - LosTech, Late Succession War - Renaissance, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Early Republic, Late Republic, Dark Ages)

And Interstellar Operations uses a third (Age of War, Star League, Early Succession Wars, Late Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, The Republic Age, Late Dark Ages)

Now, even ignoring MegaMek, while there is no overlap in the eras for MUL and IO, the naming convention between them changes a little (e.g. "Early/Late Republic" vs "The Republic Age"; "Dark Ages" vs "Late Dark Ages"; singular vs plural on "Succession War") and, to throw another monkey wrench in, the beginning of The Age of War and end of the Dark age is different by a few hundred years (2005 in MUL vs 2300 in IO and 3999 in MUL vs 3150 in IO respectively)


nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1075 on: 10 January 2020, 13:18:03 »
I can't answer for anything but the MUL.

3999 versus 3150 is just us (the MUL) saying we don't know the future.  3999 is a random number.  3150 is just IO saying it's not currently saying anyting past 3150. Neither are actually saying anything about post 3150.

Succession Wars versus Succession War, probably should be Wars, as it wasn't just one.  I don't care enough to change it at this time.  It will go on the list to get to someday.
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