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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 132760 times)

ActionButler

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #510 on: 11 November 2016, 10:11:58 »
A poster pointed out to me in a PM that the Clan Mechanized Infantry Mimir/Watch Counter Insurgency Point http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/622/clan-mechanized-infantry-mimirwatch-counter-insurgency-point is currently listed as Inner Sphere technology.  Since the Bears have all but completely integrated with the FRR, I can see this go either way, but I wanted to pass it on just the same.   


NCKestrel: Fixed, thanks for you and anon poster for pointing it out :).
« Last Edit: 11 November 2016, 10:35:21 by nckestrel »
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http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56420.0

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #511 on: 12 November 2016, 00:19:59 »
**Bump**
Vulture MkIII "D" variant.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=47774.msg1259787#msg1259787



Also the Hata-moto Chi, HTM-28T (Shin) variant needs to have someone look it over.  (I don't have the TRO, but, from the Record Sheet, there's a few things needing corrected).
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5457/hatamoto-chi-htm-28t-shin
Source: RS3050_Unabridged_ InnerSphere p.223

Movement: change 8" to 6"j
Damage
 . Short: change from 3 to 5
 . Medium: change from 3 to 5

Long Range Damage, Overheat, and listed Specials all appear fine as is.

PV will need to be recalculated accordingly (my numbers came back with 49.75, or 50 PV)

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Empyrus

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #512 on: 20 November 2016, 22:06:12 »
I noticed the Whitworth WTH-1 isn't listed as available to the Star League during the Star League era even though TRO3039 (pg 126) description implies the variant was made at the request of Star League Defense Forces:

"Originally armed with dual Harpoon-6 SRM launch-
ers, Star League designers convinced the manufacturer to
switch to the longer reach of the Longbow LRM 10 series
after noting that..."

Of course, the text doesn't actually state that the SDLF ever used WTH-1. It mentions that Whitworths were absorbed by Great House armies but it doesn't specify any variants. But logically the Star League wouldn't have made the request unless they wanted to use WTH-1, i think, so i'd suggest WTH-1 is made available for the Star League in MUL.

Unless i'm missing another source, quote or something that clearly implies otherwise?

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3538/whitworth-wth-1
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #513 on: 02 December 2016, 19:28:44 »
Most often when you file a report and don't get an immediate response, it's because there is a LOT of discussion going on behind the scenes. I will say that I support your error report; the CPLT-K2 is one of the units I definitely did the date on, and unless I made a mistake I am certain I submitted it as being from the 3020s or earlier.

So at this point, I'm going to guess the K2 question is either deemed "correct" in date, or got buried?

ColBosch

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #514 on: 02 December 2016, 19:52:29 »
So at this point, I'm going to guess the K2 question is either deemed "correct" in date, or got buried?

Buried under a ton of other work at the moment, presumably.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #515 on: 02 December 2016, 22:41:11 »
So at this point, I'm going to guess the K2 question is either deemed "correct" in date, or got buried?

We haven't decided what date to change it to.
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #516 on: 03 December 2016, 15:11:21 »
We haven't decided what date to change it to.

Ah, OK... didn't realize I was opening such a can of worms... (looks sheepish).  Always figured it was a Field Refit like the SHD-2K, etc, and probably a product of the Second Succession War, when they still had tech levels high enough for such an extreme conversion, of real late 3rd Succession War, 3020s, just before the TRO 3025, era, when the resurgence brought on the Grand Dragon, the ZEU-6T, Hatchetman, etc... but TBH, in all my years of playing, the only two "solid" dates I have ever seen associated with the K2 was that it existed in some form when the TRO 3025 was released, and that in 3033 Kurita started the first Catapult line in over 200 years, and produced the K2.  At this late date, I doubt I'll be able to plead and cajole Mitch into adding it to HBS's game, but as a long time fan of the chassis in TT, I would love to know, regardless.  I feel like I'm being a bad person running K2s in my 3025 campaign right now......... :(

Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #517 on: 10 December 2016, 00:53:11 »
Need to first thank two mods -- ActionButler, and Bosefius --- I didn't find this thread in a search, and ActionButler happily passed on my request on the infantry without criticism, and Bosefius did the same with a question I had on the ML variant of the Scorpion Light Tank.

Which brings me back to this, again -----
The MUL entry for the Scorpion Light Tank, ML variant has been updated from 2/2/0 damage, to 2/1/0 --- but I am curious, as it is only armed with 2 medium lasers and a machine gun for a maximum of 12 damage, how it gets the 2 at short range? If I missed something in the calculations, I would appreciate having that information.
This also brings me to the Vedette Liao, which has the same 2 medium lasers and a machine gun in the turret, with 2 tons of ammo for the machine gun - has a 2/1/0 damage profile, but has a Turret of 1/1/0 listed, even though all the weapons are in that turret ... and it's exactly the same turret armament as the Scorpion Light Tank.

Thank You very much, in advance
Nahuris
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #518 on: 10 December 2016, 07:55:51 »
Base damage is rounded up.  So 1.2 becomes 2.
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Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #519 on: 10 December 2016, 14:39:02 »
Base damage is rounded up.  So 1.2 becomes 2.
Does it always round up, because i have seen it round down, in other applications with 1.3 and 1.4 damage -- and that is with vehicles, where heat is not a factor.
I do appreciate the response, though, as I have been doing a lot of work with conventional forces, recently

Nahuris
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #520 on: 10 December 2016, 16:28:54 »
Yes, non-special ability damage values round up.  Special abilities damages round normal.
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Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #521 on: 10 December 2016, 20:48:09 »
Yes, non-special ability damage values round up.  Special abilities damages round normal.
Again, thank you -- ok, this does then create a question for the Vedette (Liao), which has that same 2 medium lasers and machine gun in the turret, but is listed with turret 1/1/0.

Nahuris
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #522 on: 10 December 2016, 21:06:47 »
RS 3039u is showing me the Vedette Liao's machine gun as front mounted and not in the turret?
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
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Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #523 on: 11 December 2016, 01:09:41 »
RS 3039u is showing me the Vedette Liao's machine gun as front mounted and not in the turret?

I tend to use SAW, as it's faster, and they have it in the turret, with 2 tons of ammo in the body ......

That works, though, and thank you

Nahuris
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"If we are ever in a situation, where I am the voice of reason, we are in a very bad situation."

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #524 on: 12 December 2016, 17:55:27 »
RS 3039u is showing me the Vedette Liao's machine gun as front mounted and not in the turret?

TRO3039 p.66-67  **PDF version, "Corrected Second Printing"**
The weapons entry for the primary variant of the Vedette puts the MG in the turret; it doesn't mention where it should go for the others. (Intuitively, the MG is maintained throughout the other variants; only the primary weapon is weight-swapped).

Is it possible the [the Vedette's] Record Sheets were wrong?

**edit: source**
« Last Edit: 12 December 2016, 18:02:21 by GoldBishop »

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Sigil

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #525 on: 14 December 2016, 08:05:10 »
We haven't decided what date to change it to.

It's my belief the -K2 refit originated on Al'Nair, which TRO 3025 says explicitly manufactures the original AS7-D Atlas, as part of Takashi Kurita's program to create a series of more powerful BattleMechs.  It likely uses the same Lord's Thunder PPC found on the DRG-1G "Grand Dragon."  Furthermore, I think the core issue is the date of Yori 'Mech Works, which I believe was operational well before 3025.  The "atlas" portion in the back of the House Kurita handbook says Yori Mech Works is a joint venture between Luthien Armor Works and Alshain Weaponry and that it was damaged in 3010 but is "recently back to production."  Yori is also known to have later produced both the advanced -K and-K2 versions of the Atlas.
A conservative date for the -K2 is 3024 but I think there is sufficient indirect evidence to date it to 3004.

Vulp

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #526 on: 18 December 2016, 13:20:28 »
Thanks to the MUL team for all their work, the MUL is a great resource to have available.  Is there any way that fans can help volunteer to contribute to the MUL effort?

Specifically I have a question about the status of the Dark Age unit availabilities.  They are listed in "Draft" status - is there any way to help advance its status?  There is a statement at the top of the this thread that "This database does not include Dark Age availabilities for units published prior to TR 3085". Should be interpreted as a canonical limitation ("The likelihood of encountering a 100 year old Daishi on the battlefield in 3150 is about the same as encountering a century-old WW1 Landship in a present-day conflict")?  Or it is more to limit the scope of work involved providing availability for these eras?

My guess would be mostly the latter (though with a bit of the former) -- this question came up while putting together a Dark Age unit and noticing that Union dropships are on some RATs in 3145, but not tagged as available in the MUL.

Thanks!

cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #527 on: 18 December 2016, 14:04:04 »
Scope of work. I wish it was something simple like this TRO isn't done because some are partially done. We have been working on data for TRO 3055 and later. I have 3039 and 3050 (clans are already done) on the docket next but it is a matter of carving out the time to compile and review.

For a quick answer if there is data available for a unit, it should give something for faction data for all eras after introduction with the exception of homeworld clan mechs. Compare these two examples:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2495/phoenix-hawk-pxh-1k
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4488/legacy-lgc-01

The legacy has full data while the phoenix hawk only has data covering Star League through Early Republic.

As of right now, Dark Age and Late Republic eras only have about 57% coverage. Early Republic era has about 82%. Clan Invasion to Jihad eras have over 99% coverage.

The clan omnis from 3050 all have faction data.

ColBosch

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #528 on: 18 December 2016, 14:24:58 »
If I may step in for a moment, as a former contributor to the MUL, I feel I should add that RATs should not be taken as "canon." They are a game aid meant to help players quickly create thematic forces; no more, no less.
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Bishop Steiner

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Lycomb-Davion IntroTech AWESOME Production
« Reply #529 on: 23 December 2016, 17:38:03 »
Just curious as I have been unable to find any details on when Lycomb-Davion IntroTech started building Awesomes on New Avalon. 

Am assuming it's one of the many retcons I missed over the years, as when I first played the game only Technicron produced the AWS series.  If there is a better resource for finding out this info, please can somebody direct me to it?

nckestrel

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Re: Lycomb-Davion IntroTech AWESOME Production
« Reply #530 on: 23 December 2016, 18:25:29 »
Just curious as I have been unable to find any details on when Lycomb-Davion IntroTech started building Awesomes on New Avalon. 

Am assuming it's one of the many retcons I missed over the years, as when I first played the game only Technicron produced the AWS series.  If there is a better resource for finding out this info, please can somebody direct me to it?

Let's back up a sec, what makes you think Lycomb-Davion builds Awesomes on New Avalon?  The MUL doesn't have production information, only availability (and not system specific).
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #531 on: 23 December 2016, 18:36:40 »
possible lack of info, only world I found lycomb davion listed was for New Avalon.  Excuse me if I missed something. That's kind of the point of posting and asking here, yes?  If incorrect, cool, kindly source the correct info.  But it's rather secondary to the main point, being when lycomb davion started producing AWS on whatever planet.

cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #532 on: 23 December 2016, 19:07:35 »
Field Report 2765: AFFS is the only source implying that Davion made any Awesomes. It is implied on Demeter. The factories were destroyed in the 1st SW. That is the last we hear about them making Awesomes.

TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #533 on: 23 December 2016, 20:32:48 »
If I may step in for a moment, as a former contributor to the MUL, I feel I should add that RATs should not be taken as "canon." They are a game aid meant to help players quickly create thematic forces; no more, no less.

Except that many units have no sources, outside of RATs, for their faction availability. Yet they are listed as available for those factions in the MUL.

CHEVALIER

Is there a published source stating that the Chevalier Light Tank was sold to every state during the Star League era? It's under "General" for all factions during the 2750 era on the MUL.

MERCURY MCY-99
Mercury MCY-99. TRO:2750, p. 16 states that "none of these 'Mechs were allowed outside of the direct control of the Regular Army." Yet it appears on the RATs for CCAF and LCAF and, of course, in their MUL availability.

WARHAMMER WHM-6Rb
This variant is found only on the RATs in the 2765 series (during the Star League) and is replaced by the WHM-6Rk on the DC table. This corresponds directly with what's in the MUL data. FR:2750 states that these "Royals" also represent field upgrades to existing units. So while the Combine and Periphery states are easily capable of upgrading their WHM-6R with double heat sinks and CASE, the MUL doesn't have them as available for these factions. The only place they appear (or do not appear) is in the 2765 RATs.

GALAHAD GLH-1D
As per Herb, this was a discontinued design produced by the Hegemony, just prior to the Star League's existence. (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=38360.msg887231#msg887231) It appears in the MUL as available to CCAF, LCAF, AFFS and in their corresponding RATs.

It seems as if the RATs were the initial source for the MUL data and, probably, the reason why there are so many oddities. It's hard to not come to that conclusion.
« Last Edit: 23 December 2016, 20:57:08 by TigerShark »
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ColBosch

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #534 on: 23 December 2016, 22:41:46 »
I'm not sure what your points are here, because you show cases where the RATs and MUL don't agree, and cases where there may be errors with both. My point is that sometimes units appear on RATs just to fill them out, because despite the thousands of units published, there are still gaps. (For example, the Chevalier Light Tank: maybe nobody but the SLDF really used that exact model, but the other states used local designs with the same stats.) Beyond that, mistakes also happen. Sometimes they're corrected through errata, and sometimes they're allowed to stay because their actual impact is minor.

If you feel you have found a mistake, the proper procedure is to report it as errata for the appropriate product. Do note that certain products are considered obsolete and will neither have errata threads nor be corrected. If any newer source disagrees with them, then the older product is usually considered to have been retconned unless the newer book is outright incorrect. TR2750, as one of the earliest Technical Readouts, certainly falls under this guideline. If you are uncertain what fix should be made, then before posting in the errata thread, post a question in either Ask the Writers or Ask the Lead Developers, but understand that it will take some time to get an answer, and that the answer you receive might not be what you wanted.

If you feel that the Master Unit List has an error, then this is the proper thread to post in. A unit's appearance on a RAT can be a point of evidence, but it might not be enough for inclusion on the MUL. On the other hand, a unit not appearing on a RAT is not a point of evidence in either direction. On the gripping hand, there may be internal discussion that places or removes a unit from the MUL without corroborating evidence in print.

BattleTech is a hugely detailed and sprawling universe, covering about six centuries "on-screen" over a couple hundred sourcebooks and novels. No one person can remember it all. Mistakes happen, and it is very much appreciated when the fanbase brings them to the developers' attention, so they can be fixed. All that's asked in return is patience on answers, and a willingness to accept that reports might not be acted upon or result in changes that the reporter might not personally agree with. "Hoarding" mistakes - that is, not reporting them because they're in your favor - or rejecting direct developer input is generally considered poor form, and is just going to prolong arguments.

Whoof. Sorry for the long post, and my apologies if I stepped on any toes, but I worked hard to develop the current errata system at CGL, and I know how hard everyone works behind the scenes, especially the MUL guys.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #535 on: 23 December 2016, 23:21:02 »
Long story made short, if you feel there is an error in the MUL, report it and whatever sources you have for believing it's an error. 
RAT, technical readout, scenario, novel, whatever. 
There are few rules, many guidelines, and mostly headaches from the resulting conflicts.
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Sigil

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #536 on: 26 December 2016, 23:39:39 »
Regarding the MUL introduction date for the Zeus BattleMech:

TRO: 3025 reports the Zeus was designed in 2407 with Defiance Industries beginning production in 2411.

TRO: 3039 does a massive about face on this and states the Zeus didn't began production until after the fall of the Star League, arriving just in time for the beginning of the First Succession War.  The MUL also uses 2787 as the introduction date with the familiar -6S finally arriving 2898.

This would infer that Defiance Industries, the sole producer of the Zeus, maintained the ability to produce the advanced weapons of the Star League until almost 2900, including extended range energy weapons, Ultra autocannons, the Artemis IV FCS, Ferro-Fibrous armor and most importantly, Double Heat Sinks.

The Tech Manual reports extended range lasers were extinct as of 2950, Ultra autocannons in 2915​, DHS in 2865, ​the ER PPC as of 2860, Artemis IV disappears in 2855, and Ferro-Fibrous armor in 2810. 

How was Defiance Industries making the -5S and 5T ​Zeus​ using reportedly "extinct" technology up until 2898?  Something seems very, very wrong here.  Please review and clarify.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #537 on: 27 December 2016, 00:09:04 »
Or Defiance didn't make any Zeus for several decades. Or Defiance made an as of yet undescribed variant for that time.  There's nothing on the MUL that says when production stopped, only when it first started.  If Defiance couldn't produce the 5S and 5T for a time, then they weren't.
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #538 on: 27 December 2016, 11:05:11 »
Field Report 2765: AFFS is the only source implying that Davion made any Awesomes. It is implied on Demeter. The factories were destroyed in the 1st SW. That is the last we hear about them making Awesomes.

great, that clears that up.

Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #539 on: 27 December 2016, 11:13:05 »
Regarding the MUL introduction date for the Zeus BattleMech:

TRO: 3025 reports the Zeus was designed in 2407 with Defiance Industries beginning production in 2411.

TRO: 3039 does a massive about face on this and states the Zeus didn't began production until after the fall of the Star League, arriving just in time for the beginning of the First Succession War.  The MUL also uses 2787 as the introduction date with the familiar -6S finally arriving 2898.

This would infer that Defiance Industries, the sole producer of the Zeus, maintained the ability to produce the advanced weapons of the Star League until almost 2900, including extended range energy weapons, Ultra autocannons, the Artemis IV FCS, Ferro-Fibrous armor and most importantly, Double Heat Sinks.

The Tech Manual reports extended range lasers were extinct as of 2950, Ultra autocannons in 2915​, DHS in 2865, ​the ER PPC as of 2860, Artemis IV disappears in 2855, and Ferro-Fibrous armor in 2810. 

How was Defiance Industries making the -5S and 5T ​Zeus​ using reportedly "extinct" technology up until 2898?  Something seems very, very wrong here.  Please review and clarify.

Or they were using existing stockpiles set aside for their Flagship, until they ran out? What we see in modern military ggear (admittedly usually with advancements, not downgrades) is a steady stream of modifications that get little or no official "designations" and then at various times, usually with a major change, a new model.  (M1A1 Abrams has had a ton of changes made that didn't really get noted by it's designation)

Out of Ferro Fibrous?  Switch the Line to standard.  Out of Artemis FCS (or more likely, the warheads)? Remove it, tuck another SHS in it's place.  Can't make an ER LLaser?  Use a std.  Few of those changes, individually would call for a new designation. I would say the DHS to SHS downgrade would be the most likely "change" point, from where the official 6S would step in.

Of course, all of that is counter to the original lore, which went from  PPC packing prototypes to production 6S, with no 5T or 5S in between.  But hey...why bother keeping continuity when we can retcon, instead!  (yes the sheer amount of unneeded retcons and variants added has me a bit salty)