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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 84345 times)

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #90 on: 08 September 2015, 15:21:39 »
I believe some of the "Salamandar Battle Armor" PVs somehow got played with (I have previously printed values that no longer match the MUL, but after inspecting the ASC errata, there should not have been a change).

[Anti-Infantry]: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2787/salamander-battle-armor-anti-infantry
10 PV for all 3 "CAR#" values (4, 5, 6)*

[Standard]: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2789/salamander-battle-armor-standard
11 PV for all 3 "CAR#" values (4, 5, 6) 

[Laser]: http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2788/salamander-battle-armor-laser
10 PV for "CAR4" and "CAR5" cards, [and CAR6]
11 PV for "CAR6"; this card should also have a Short Range Damage value of 3. **



* = [Anti-Infantry] PV calculation (all 3 CAR#s)
. OFV = 4
. . (3+ 0.5*2 + 0) = 4
. DFV = MF + DSAF + DIR = 9.75
. . MF = 1.25
. . . 6"/8" = 0.75 + 0.5 (jump)
. . DSAF = 0.5
. . . 0.5 ~ Fire Resistant "FR" special
. . DIR = 8.0
. . . [(1*2) + (2*2)] * {1 + [1 + 1 (TMM) + 1 (Jump)]/10}
. . . . (6) * (1.3) = 7.8 ~ round to nearest half, or 8

Subtotal = OFV + DFV
. 4 + 9.75 = 13.75

Multiply subtotal by 0.75 (moves less than 10", doesn't deal at least 1 point of damage at Medium)
. 10.3125, round normal (down)

Total PV = 10



** = [Laser] CAR6 value calculation
. Damage = 0.52 @ Short Range
. Troop Factor = 4.5
. . Damage x Troop Factor = 2.34 ~ 3 damage @ Short Range

OFV = 5
. (3 + 0.5*2 + 0) + 1 HT
DFV = MF + DSAF + DIR = 9.75
. MF = 1.25
. . 6"/8" = 0.75 + 0.5 (jump)
. DSAF = 0.5
. . 0.5 ~ Fire Resistant "FR" special
. DIR = 8.0
. . [(1*2) + (2*2)] * {1 + [1 + 1 (TMM) + 1 (Jump)]/10}
. . . (6) * (1.3) = 7.8 ~ round to nearest half, or 8

Subtotal PV = OFV + DFV = 14.75
. 5 + 9.75

Multiply subtotal by 0.75 (moves less than 10", doesn't deal at least 1 point of damage at Medium)
. 11.0625, round normal (down)

Total PV = 11

EDIT: corrected by having values pointed out.  Thank you Pa Weasley!
[/size]
« Last Edit: 08 September 2015, 22:24:35 by GoldBishop »

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Cache

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #91 on: 08 September 2015, 18:08:53 »
Recently found this errata that has not made it into the MUL.  The Cavalry (Infantry) needs to be corrected and the Cavalry (BA) needs an entry.

Cavalry (Infantry), p. 21
duplicate the sheet, then modify the two:
  • remove 1 ton of infantry, increase MG ammo to 200
  • rename (BA) variant, remove 1 MG

Pa Weasley

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #92 on: 08 September 2015, 20:08:29 »
[Snip]
With the errata to p.138
Quote
Page 138, Determine Unit's Offensive Value
Count all minimum damage values (0*) as 0.
Change to:
For a minimum damage value (0*) at Short or Long range, add 0.5. For a minimum damage value at Medium Range, add 1.
Damage amounts of 0* count as doing damage. Per ASC p. 141, units like all variants of the Salamander BA, that move 6" and can deliver damage at medium range do not need to have their final point values modified. There's no requirement that the unit can deliver a minimum of 1 damage, just that it delivers damage.  A recent update to battle armor listings in the MUL (you'll notice that there are BVs for 4, 5, and 6 man squads) caught these discrepancies and updated them. 

Quote
** = [Laser] CAR6 value calculation
. Damage = 0.52 @ Short Range
. Troop Factor = 4.5
. . Damage x Troop Factor = 2.34 ~ 3 damage @ Short Range
The Salamander (Laser) BA are equipped with a flamer, and ER micro laser, and a SRM 1 (OS) which do 0.2, 0.2, and 0.02 damage respectively for a total of 0.42. Times the troop factor for CAR6 (4.5) the raw damage value is 1.89 which rounds to 2.

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #93 on: 08 September 2015, 22:22:49 »
With the errata to p.138:
Damage amounts of 0* count as doing damage. Per ASC p. 141, units like all variants of the Salamander BA, that move 6" and can deliver damage at medium range do not need to have their final point values modified. There's no requirement that the unit can deliver a minimum of 1 damage, just that it delivers damage.  A recent update to battle armor listings in the MUL (you'll notice that there are BVs for 4, 5, and 6 man squads) caught these discrepancies and updated them. 
...

I have already made that edit to my copy of the ASC.  The way I had interpreted it, however, was that the "0.5" remains throughout all three range bands, and that the "1" for Medium Range was supposed to just be short-hand for "0.5 + 0.5" (since Medium range is added twice when summing for OFV).  Have I assumed wrong?


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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #94 on: 08 September 2015, 22:30:23 »
...
The Salamander (Laser) BA are equipped with a flamer, and ER micro laser, and a SRM 1 (OS) which do 0.2, 0.2, and 0.02 damage respectively for a total of 0.42. Times the troop factor for CAR6 (4.5) the raw damage value is 1.89 which rounds to 2.

You... are correct.  That's what I get for using old spreadsheets.  I will edit my previous post. (sorry for the headache)

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Pa Weasley

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #95 on: 09 September 2015, 00:25:23 »
I have already made that edit to my copy of the ASC.  The way I had interpreted it, however, was that the "0.5" remains throughout all three range bands, and that the "1" for Medium Range was supposed to just be short-hand for "0.5 + 0.5" (since Medium range is added twice when summing for OFV).  Have I assumed wrong?
Actually, that part you assumed completely correctly. *I* however, made an error and have gone and recalculated the PV of all BA with a medium range damage value of 0*. I've recalcualted the PV of all affected units and will have them all entered ASAP.

*EDIT* Battle armor units with a medium range damage of 0* previously had an incorrect PV. All  affected units have been corrected. Cards should update in the next 24 hours.

However, if a unit has a damage value of 0* at a particular range it counts as being able to do damage at that range for the purposes of any final PV modification based on a units speed and maximum range. In other words, none of the Salamander BA are subject to any final PV modifications noted in Step 3 on ASC p. 141.

You... are correct.  That's what I get for using old spreadsheets.  I will edit my previous post. (sorry for the headache)
If that's from one of my old sheets, I sincerely apologize.
« Last Edit: 09 September 2015, 13:17:47 by Pa Weasley »

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #96 on: 09 September 2015, 10:37:46 »
The weapon listing for the [Laser] variant of the Salamander you gave is the correct listing (verified when I opened up my 3058 pdf).  The only excuse I have is, beside writing the wrong values down, that I included the Anti-Personnel bonus (since the box is unchecked, this error is mine).

I will respect that "might do damage" is a qualifier to negate the PV reduction as you outlined. [I'm not happy about it, but that's an opinion ;)  ]  Something more clear and definitive should be added to page 141 so someone else doesn't follow my mistake.

And speaking of my mistake, in undoing the *0.75 for all my calcs, I get the following:
.  Salamander BA [Standard]       15 PVOFV = 5 (2 Short, 0.5*2 Medium, 0 Long, 2 HT),  DFV = 9.75 (8 DIR, 1.25 MF, 0.5 DSAF)
.  Salamander BA [Anti-Infantry] 14 PVOFV = 4 (3 Short, 0.5*2 Medium, 0 Long),  DFV = 9.75 (8 DIR, 1.25 MF, 0.5 DSAF)
.  Salamander BA [Laser]             14 PVOFV = 4 (2 Short, 0.5*2 Medium, 0 Long, 1 HT), DFV = 9.75 (8 DIR, 1.25 MF, 0.5 DSAF)

I hope this helps.

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Andy Mitchell

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #97 on: 17 September 2015, 12:07:16 »
If you add multiple identical units, e.g. in the alpha strike force builder they are often reduced back down to a single unit of each type. Some ways to cause this after adding duplicate units:

* Press F5 (refresh page) in the alpha strike force builder
* Navigate from the AS Builder to another page on the master unit list site, then back to the AS builder.

Which means you can't make use of the awesome full paramatised search capability after entering the AS builder if you have any duplicates in your force.

wantec

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #98 on: 17 September 2015, 15:05:03 »
Since it was asked elsewhere, I'll ask it here, any idea when the new artwork for the unseens will be used on the MUL and AS cards? Is that something where we need to wait for the artwork to appear in a published product or is the preview artwork good enough?
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #99 on: 17 September 2015, 15:28:40 »
Since it was asked elsewhere, I'll ask it here, any idea when the new artwork for the unseens will be used on the MUL and AS cards? Is that something where we need to wait for the artwork to appear in a published product or is the preview artwork good enough?

When its published, or TPTB tell us to, whichever is sooner.  I don't recall an instance of the second happening yet though, so unless something surprising happens, when it's published.
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Scotty

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #100 on: 22 September 2015, 17:17:01 »
Could I put in a feature request?  I think it'd be fantastic to be able to choose the number of cards the AS Force Builder prints per sheet.  8 per sheet in two columns is easy enough to organize for IS units, but Clan, C*/WOB, Marian, and other odd balls get left out in the ease of access.  Being able to choose whether 3, 4, or 5 cards printed per column would be fantastic.
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wantec

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #101 on: 23 September 2015, 07:37:24 »
Could I put in a feature request?  I think it'd be fantastic to be able to choose the number of cards the AS Force Builder prints per sheet.  8 per sheet in two columns is easy enough to organize for IS units, but Clan, C*/WOB, Marian, and other odd balls get left out in the ease of access.  Being able to choose whether 3, 4, or 5 cards printed per column would be fantastic.
The same goes for Battle Armor formations when using the Force Builder. Unless I missed it, all the BA formations default to 4-man squads.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #102 on: 25 September 2015, 02:08:48 »
I've done a search on posts in this forum, and can't see this reported previously, so here goes:

The Fa Shih TAG variant doesn't have the "LTAG" special ability. Each suit in the squad carries a Light TAG, so I'd expect it to be present.

Link to MUL here: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1018/fa-shih-battle-armor-tag

Recommended fix - add LTAG to this suit.

Cheers, and thanks for the hard work,

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Pa Weasley

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #103 on: 25 September 2015, 08:14:10 »
Sorry about that. All squad sizes have been corrected. CAR4 should update in the next 24 hours.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #104 on: 30 September 2015, 02:10:24 »
Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And thanks!

Nckestrel just pointed out that I can search on AS role via the Basic Filters. So if I need a Capellan Brawler available during the Jihad, it's but a moment's work.

This is, indeed, wonderful.

So thanks to all the people who munge the data and shepherd the bytes.

Thanks!

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #105 on: 05 October 2015, 20:14:55 »
The Vindicator VND-1X is missing special ability IF* from its Alpha Strike card. http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3425/vindicator-vnd-1x

The VND-1R does have it, as do other Vindicator variants that mount an LRM-5.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #106 on: 06 October 2015, 12:18:01 »
When its published, or TPTB tell us to, whichever is sooner.  I don't recall an instance of the second happening yet though, so unless something surprising happens, when it's published.

OTOH, wasn't the lineart for the Marauder and Whammie "published" in the recent Alpha Strike Quick Start Rules? Or does it have to be in an actual print publication for it to count as published?

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #107 on: 08 October 2015, 13:13:35 »
Reporting a bug: AlphaStrike cards for Protomechs are not listing "Skill" and their values on the individual Unit Cards

These values still appear on the list generated when using the Force Builder tool and cost an appropriate amount of PV.

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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #108 on: 13 October 2015, 23:55:24 »
Reporting a bug: Rommel (Howitzer) and the Howitzer prototype AlphaStrike cards are missing the ARTLTC-1 in their respective TUR specials.  (The card does list the special, they're just not listed in the turret)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4934/rommel-tank-howitzer
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4933/rommel-tank-howitzer-prototype


Xotl: fixed, thanks!
« Last Edit: 14 October 2015, 00:37:41 by Xotl »

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pfarland

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #109 on: 19 October 2015, 15:58:23 »
I'm working on a (personal) project involving the MUL and noticed this.

Possible availability bug.  The Cephalus Omni has some that seem 'off'.
Cephalus <Base>; Cephalus Prime; Cephalus A - Availability in Jihad AND Early Republic

Cephalus B; Cephalus C; Cephalus D; Cephalus E; Cephalus U - Available ONLY in Jihad Era

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a side note, though I'm not very far through the MUL, I've noticed that nothing seems to have availabilities in the Age of War, Star League, Early Succession Wars, and Late Republic Eras.  (I read that most won't have a Dark Ages availability).  Is this something that's being worked on or just not available yet?
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cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #110 on: 19 October 2015, 16:09:53 »
The Cephalus does not have any availability data for Republic Era. It is To Be Announced.

The other areas are being worked upon but they take time. The volume of units and in the early eras, tracking down information takes a lot of time.

pfarland

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #111 on: 19 October 2015, 16:22:10 »
The Cephalus does not have any availability data for Republic Era. It is To Be Announced.

The other areas are being worked upon but they take time. The volume of units and in the early eras, tracking down information takes a lot of time.

Gotcha, and yeah I COMPLETELY understand about the time factor.  There is just about a metric ton of sourcebooks to go through, what's been done so far is already amazing!

On that note though, I noticed something else:

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3979/commando-com-7x

This Commando variant doesn't seem to have any TRO or RS link or product info and it's BV and PV are listed as N/A.  It does have availability info though. 
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #112 on: 19 October 2015, 17:18:21 »
That is not uncommon.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #113 on: 19 October 2015, 18:53:51 »
This might be more of a question than an errata at this point. Didn't really know whereas to ask, but since I caught this while doing BV checks, I figured I'd ask here.

The Rifleman IIC 6 is listed as having a BV of 2,251, which matches the unit pre-loaded in SSW.

My calculation has the BV at 2,220, which matches the unit pre-loaded in MML.

The difference appears to be due to the fact that SSW version has an ER Small Laser mounted in the head. The unit as it appears in Record Sheets: 3085 Unabridged — Project Phoenix does not have this ER Small Laser, but it is half a ton underweight. I could not find errata anywhere which stated the RS in the official product is incorrect. So, do you know if the RS is correct, at which point the MUL is wrong?

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #114 on: 23 October 2015, 13:41:24 »
The BV for the Jenner JR10-X is listed incorrectly as 1,269. I've actually no idea where this number comes from. The number in SSW matches the record sheet with 1,452. This number is also incorrect, however. My calculations (below) show the BV as 1,419, which also matches that in MML.

Code: [Select]
==================================================================================================
Defensive Battle Rating
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Armor (Light Ferro-Fibrous):                 139 x 2.5 x 1                  347.500             
  Internal Structure (Composite w/ XL Engine): 58 x 1.5 x 0.5 x 0.5    (+)     21.750  =   369.250
  Gyro (Compact):                              35 x 0.5                (+)     17.500  =   386.750
  Defensive Equipment:                                                                           
       Angel ECM Suite                                                 (+)    100.000  =   486.750
  Defensive Movement Factor:                   +4 (w/ Null-Signature)  (*)       1.60  =   778.800
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Defensive Battle Rating:                                                             778.800

==================================================================================================
Offensive Battle Rating
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                           
       Medium Laser                                                            46.000             
       Medium Laser                                                    (+)     46.000  =    92.000
       Medium Laser                                                    (+)     46.000  =   138.000
       Medium Laser                                                    (+)     46.000  =   184.000
       Medium Laser                                                    (+)     46.000  =   230.000
       Medium Laser                                                    (+)     46.000  =   276.000
  Total 'Mech Tonnage:                                                 (+)     35.000  =   311.000
  Speed Factor:                                11 (Run) + 4 (Jump)     (*)      2.300  =   715.300
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Offensive Battle Rating:                                                             715.300

==================================================================================================
BattleMech Battle Value
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Defensive Battle Rating:                                                    778.800             
  Offensive Battle Rating:                                             (+)    715.300  = 1,494.100
  Cockpit (Torso-Mounted):                                             (*)       0.95  = 1,419.395
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final BattleMech Battle Value:                                                               1,419

Pa Weasley

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #115 on: 23 October 2015, 14:23:10 »
The 1,269 value is correct. Per this TacOps errata, the heat from the Null-Signature System is now factored into BV calculations. Same goes for the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Void-Signature System. All parts of your calculations were correct except that due to the above errata, three of the six medium lasers have their BVs halved due to the cumulative heat exceeding the 'Mechs calculated heat efficiency.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #116 on: 23 October 2015, 14:47:41 »
OTOH, wasn't the lineart for the Marauder and Whammie "published" in the recent Alpha Strike Quick Start Rules? Or does it have to be in an actual print publication for it to count as published?

And Marauders and Warhammers are updated....
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

ConstableBrew

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #117 on: 23 October 2015, 17:54:03 »
Two changes I'd love to see to the MUL:  First would be to expand what you can filter by with Alpha Strike.  At the very least, TMM would be nice, but the more options the better.  Second, I really wish the results were more useful for picking units--meaning if they showed the stats that are listed when you add them to your force, including TMM/MV and Specials.

Even if we couldn't get the narrower filters, just having results that included those stats would make it a lot less daunting to pick out units for a force.  :)

I'm running into similar issues now. I'd like to add that it would also be helpful to see each unit's full set of specials. Comparing units and weighing options comes with so much overhead when I have to open every single unit.

I also have been cross referencing every unit in sarna.net, since there I can find helpful writeups about each unit's history and usage in canon. If there were a simple url link to the sarna page, that would speed up my process significantly.

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #118 on: 27 October 2015, 14:57:02 »
The 1,269 value is correct. Per this TacOps errata, the heat from the Null-Signature System is now factored into BV calculations. Same goes for the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Void-Signature System. All parts of your calculations were correct except that due to the above errata, three of the six medium lasers have their BVs halved due to the cumulative heat exceeding the 'Mechs calculated heat efficiency.

Thanks. I should've known this since I was the cause (or at least asked the question that sparked the change) of the heat now being factored into the BV!! :)

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #119 on: 27 October 2015, 15:02:37 »
The BV for the Goliath GOL-5W is listed incorrectly as 2,030. My calculations, along with those of MML and SSW, all come to 2,006. So I'm not sure where the calculation may be off (perhaps not factoring heat for Stealth??). Here is my breakdown:

Code: [Select]
================================================================================================
Defensive Battle Rating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Armor (Stealth):                                263 x 2.5 x 1             657.500             
  Internal Structure (Standard w/ Fusion Engine): 130 x 1.5 x 1 x 1  (+)    195.000  =   852.500
  Gyro (Standard):                                80 x 0.5           (+)     40.000  =   892.500
  Defensive Equipment:                                                                         
       Guardian ECM Suite                                            (+)     61.000  =   953.500
  Defensive Movement Factor:                      +2 (w/ Stealth)    (*)       1.40  = 1,334.900
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Defensive Battle Rating:                                                         1,334.900

================================================================================================
Offensive Battle Rating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                         
       Medium Laser                                                          46.000             
       Medium Laser                                                  (+)     46.000  =    92.000
       Medium Laser                                                  (+)     23.000  =   115.000
       Plasma Rifle                                                  (+)    210.000  =   325.000
       Plasma Rifle                                                  (+)    210.000  =   535.000
       Plasma Rifle (Ammo 10)                                        (+)     26.000  =   561.000
       Plasma Rifle (Ammo 10)                                        (+)     26.000  =   587.000
       Plasma Rifle (Ammo 10)                                        (+)     26.000  =   613.000
  Total 'Mech Tonnage:                                               (+)     80.000  =   693.000
  Speed Factor:                                   6 (Run) + 0 (Jump) (*)      1.120  =   776.160
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Offensive Battle Rating:                                                           776.160

================================================================================================
BattleMech Battle Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Defensive Battle Rating:                                                1,334.900             
  Offensive Battle Rating:                                           (+)    776.160  = 2,111.060
  Cockpit (Small):                                                   (*)       0.95  = 2,005.507
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final BattleMech Battle Value:                                                             2,006

 

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