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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 114423 times)

Empyrus

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #930 on: 27 June 2019, 16:02:19 »
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6924/owens-ow-1g
The Owens G is listed as mixed tech unit even though it does not have any Clan tech. The Supercharger and TSEMP are both IS tech.

This error seems to be stemming from RS3145NTNU which has the 'Mech listed as "mixed" for some reason.
IS standard and pulse lasers: red; IS ER and X-pulses: blue; Re-engineered lasers: orange; Clan ER, pulse, and ER pulse lasers: green; Clan heavy lasers: yellow; PPCs: skyblue; PPCs w/capacitor: purplish-blue.

Wrangler

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #931 on: 29 June 2019, 14:20:06 »
Subject: Carrier Fighter Carrier

Problem: Variant Not listed on MUL
References: First Succession War, p. 58, "Fallout" - Pair of Free World League converted Carracks noted as Aerospace or Fighter Carriers. First Succession War, p. 76, "Once More, With Feeling", FedSuns converted Carrack Transport named FSS Pretoria Castle being used as also a Fighter Carrier.

Solution: New Entry in MUL for Fighter Carrier Variant of Carrack Transport.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #932 on: 29 June 2019, 15:04:15 »
Solution: New Entry in MUL for Fighter Carrier Variant of Carrack Transport.
Carrack CV or Carrack CVE would more closely match the naming-system (such as the Leopard CV).
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VhenRa

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #933 on: 01 July 2019, 02:30:32 »
I've got a question...

Why is this listed as RWR/Terran/SLDF in SL-era?

S.gage

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Wrangler

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #935 on: 05 July 2019, 13:19:07 »
Problem: Missing units yet posted from Turning Points: Tokasha.

  • Kokou Defense Tank
  • Kokou Defense Tank (XL)
  • Issedone Prime (omnifighter)
  • Issedone A  (Omnifighter)
  • Issedone B  (OmniFighter)
Solution: Add new entries into MUL
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

OpacusVenatori

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #936 on: 05 July 2019, 15:11:23 »
I searched quickly but couldn't find anything about this:
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7430/wolverine-wvr-6d

Problem: AS card for the wolverine 6D doesn't have the Jumping movement type.

Solution: add the "J" after the movement value and calculate the new PV accordingly.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #937 on: 05 July 2019, 15:15:50 »
I searched quickly but couldn't find anything about this:
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7430/wolverine-wvr-6d

Problem: AS card for the wolverine 6D doesn't have the Jumping movement type.

Solution: add the "J" after the movement value and calculate the new PV accordingly.

yep, typo on my part, fixed. 
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Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #938 on: 14 July 2019, 16:36:52 »
Hi, I have a question on the Clint 6S -- it notes, in it's description that it was put in production, in 3068, after the fall of Hesperus II to the Word of Blake. We know that the 16th battle of Hesperus II notes that the coalition did not retake it, until 3074. And the Clint 6S uses heavy ferro armor, and a small cockpit, which tends to make it resemble a Word of Blake unit, but it is not on the WOB Mul list, and is only shown as Lyran Alliance availability.

The design seems to be very strongly implied as a Blake variant, especially with the small cockpit, and 6 years of production, at a time when they control that factory, but is not available to them...

Just finding it curious, and thank you.

Nahuris
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Insaniac99

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #939 on: 17 July 2019, 20:47:39 »
As asked by Xotl, here are some mismatched battlevalues we have found between MML and the Master Unit List.  Some of these line up with pre errata numbers for certain peices of equipment.

Archer 9W at MML's 1662 and MUL's 2004
Gestalt G at MML's 2392 and MUL's 2491
Pariah (Septicemia) US at MML's 2308 and MUL's 2,298
Turkina U at MML's 2,478 and MUL's 2,520

Additionally I have found that this mech is missing in the MUL
Stealth 5X, found in XTRO Steiner, Page 4

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #940 on: 17 July 2019, 20:53:11 »
As asked by Xotl, here are some mismatched battlevalues we have found between MML and the Master Unit List.  Some of these line up with pre errata numbers for certain peices of equipment.

Archer 9W at MML's 1662 and MUL's 2004
Gestalt G at MML's 2392 and MUL's 2491
Pariah (Septicemia) US at MML's 2308 and MUL's 2,298
Turkina U at MML's 2,478 and MUL's 2,520
Thanks, updated!
Quote
Additionally I have found that this mech is missing in the MUL
Stealth 5X, found in XTRO Steiner, Page 4
it's there:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5130/stealth-sth-5x
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #941 on: 17 July 2019, 20:54:14 »
Hi, I have a question on the Clint 6S -- it notes, in it's description that it was put in production, in 3068, after the fall of Hesperus II to the Word of Blake. We know that the 16th battle of Hesperus II notes that the coalition did not retake it, until 3074. And the Clint 6S uses heavy ferro armor, and a small cockpit, which tends to make it resemble a Word of Blake unit, but it is not on the WOB Mul list, and is only shown as Lyran Alliance availability.

The design seems to be very strongly implied as a Blake variant, especially with the small cockpit, and 6 years of production, at a time when they control that factory, but is not available to them...

Just finding it curious, and thank you.

Nahuris

Yeah, I can't find any reason for it, WoB added to Jihad. Thanks.
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Insaniac99

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #942 on: 17 July 2019, 21:42:17 »
Thanks, updated!it's there:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5130/stealth-sth-5x

Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed it!

 However, it's BV is also incorrect, MML has it as 2240 in version 0.45.4  instead of the MUL's 2155

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #943 on: 17 July 2019, 21:43:19 »
Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed it!

 However, it's BV is also incorrect, MML has it as 2240 in version 0.45.4  instead of the MUL's 2155

Good thing I put the link, so I could go straight there and fix it...
Thanks, udpated.
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Thunder

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #944 on: 31 July 2019, 13:17:37 »
PV Correction for

Squad size 4   Grenadier Battle Armor   (Hunter-Killer) [SRM/MagShot]
Squad size 4   Grenadier Battle Armor   [SRM/LRR]
Squad size 4   Grenadier Battle Armor   [SRM/MagShot]
Squad size 6   Phalanx Battle Armor   A

These units have the same Alpha Strike Stats
The MUL reported PV is 13.  The Correct PV is 12.

Offense = 9
3 Short + 3x2 Medium damage :: 9

Defense = 7.5
(4/2)*.25 Movement :: .5
1x2 armor 2x2 structure :: 6  Defense factor is 1.2 (1 +.1 BA +.1STL) :: 6*1.2 = 7.2 Round normally to .5's, DIR is 7.

PV Subtotal is 16.5.
move less then 6, does Medium Range.  Brawler Multiplier is .75
16.5*.75 = 12.375.  PV Rounds Normally to 12.`

Not 100% sure, but I think your spreadsheet is calculating brawler separately as .25*Subtotal.  Rounding, and then subtracting that number from the subtotal.


Next Problem.
4   Grenadier Battle Armor   [Heavy Flamer/Heavy Flamer]
The Heat special ability is not being included properly.  PV should be 14.
Problem looks like the Heat special was abbreviated to H2/-/- and the spreadsheet ignored it.

theagent

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #945 on: 07 August 2019, 04:43:27 »
Annihilator ANH-1A (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3700/annihilator-anh-1a):

PV seems way low, especially when compared to the ANH-2A (http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/39/annihilator-anh-2a).  I only came across it while working on a custom variant for the -1A that I wanted to compare it to.

Per MUL, PV is 31.

Per my calculations (based on the 1st printing of Alpha Strike Companion & v1.2 of the Errata), PV should be :
  • Offensive Value:
    • Attack Damage Factor:  Short + Medium + Long + Medium = 5 + 5 + 0 + 5 = 15
    • Unit Size Factor:  SZ 4, 4 / 2 = 2
    • Overheat Factor:  OV1 = +1
    • Offensive Special Abilities:  none
    • Subtotal:  15 + 2 + 1 = 18
    • Modifier:  Base 1.0 + 0 = 1.0
    • Final Offensive Value:  18 x 1.0 = 18.0
  • defensive Value:
    • Movement Factor:  4" / 8 = 0.5
    • Defensive Special Abilities:  none
    • Defensive Interaction Raring/DIR
      • Armor Rating:  7 points x 2.0 (non-Vehicle) = 14.0
      • Structure Rating:  8 points x 1.0 (BattleMech) = 8.0
      • Defense Factor:  4" = +0 modifier; 0/10 = 0.0, 1.0 + 0.0 = 1.0
      • Total DIR:  (14 + 8) x 1.0 = 22 x 1.0 = 22.0; rounding to nearest 0.5 is still 22.0
    • Final Defensive Value:  0.5 + 0 + 22 = 22.5
  • Final Point Value:  18 + 22.5 = 40.5, rounding down to 40

That's a major gap in PV there, & I can't figure out where the issue is.  When I look at the ANH-2A model, it's right on target (has the same Defensive Value because those stats are identical; the damage values by range are different, but even with the shift from 5/5/-- to 4/4/3 the Attack Damage Factor is still identical; the only difference is the higher OV -- -1A has OV1, -2A has OV2 -- which increases its Offensive Value to 18.5 & the Final Point Value to 41.0 even).

Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #946 on: 07 August 2019, 12:27:18 »
The -1A triggers the Brawler point discount because it's slow as dirt and has no long range damage.  That saves it 10 points.
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Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.

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theagent

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #947 on: 07 August 2019, 13:43:01 »
I thought that was only if they were limited to 2” or less of movement, but I’ll check my errata tonight...

EDIT:  And...there it is, in the original book (as the sole modifier to the subtotal) & in the Errata (now labeled as the "Brawler" adjustment).

Given the choice between me making a mistake & the MUL editors making a mistake, though, I'll pick me making a mistake any day, if for no other reason than the learning experience.
« Last Edit: 07 August 2019, 19:31:05 by theagent »

Nahuris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #948 on: 11 August 2019, 17:20:12 »
Just wanted to ask about the PV Value of the Pal P12 "Hurricane" Battle Armor. It has the squad of 4 listed at 4PV, the squad of 0 listed at 4PV, but then the squad of 6 listed at 13PV

Just wanting to get that clarified, if possible, and thank you.

Nahuris
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Xiwo Xerase

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #949 on: 16 August 2019, 16:20:32 »
Unit: Predator (Standard)

Issue:
The Predator has no faction availability for Clan Fire Mandrill.  However, as per Technical Readout: 3060, the 'Mech was developed and produced by Clan Fire Mandrill.

Recommendation:
Add availability for Clan Fire Mandrill in the Clan Invasion and Civil War eras.


Unit: Cecerops 3

Issue:
The Cecerops 3 has no availability for Clan Blood Spirit.  Technical Readout 3075 (PDF, 2nd printing corrected, page 152) lists this as one of two variants in use by Clan Blood Spirit.

Recommendation:
Add availability for Clan Blood Spirit in the Jihad era.  (Note: I do not know if the Society availability for this version is erroneous.)


Unit: Cecerops 4

Issue:
The Cecerops 4 has no availability for Society.  Technical Readout 3075 (PDF, 2nd printing corrected, page 152) implies this is used by Society forces (or another similar raiding group).

Recommendation:
Add availability for Society in the Jihad era.  (Note: I do not know if the Clan Blood Spirit availability for this version is erroneous.  TRO 3075 says this variant was only seen with (presumed) Society forces but it does not definitively say the Blood Spirits do not use this version.)

Gruber

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #950 on: 25 August 2019, 04:34:32 »
Potential conversion issue LRM ability.
CPLT-C1 Catapult.

Hey there I think there is a potential issue on the LRM ability conversion for the Catapult C1

Based on

ASC Page 126
Conversion: A unit receives this special if it carries any number of standard or enhanced LRM and/or MML launchers that, when combined, are capable of delivering 1 or more points of damage
at Medium range after heat-modification and before final damage rounding.

June 2018 errata page 9 ASC Page 101
Damage Subtotal: A unit’s total damage at a given range bracket modified by everything except heat (such as ammunition or targeting computers). No rounding is applied.

• Heat-Modified Damage: Any unit whose heat production is significantly greater than its dissipation will have to reduce its damage. This process is covered in Converting Heat (see p. 115). However, even if the unit does not reduce its damage due to heat, or even if the unit does not track heat at all, the damage subtotals are rounded to the nearest tenth and the results are still referred to as the unit’s heat-modified damage.

Ammunition page 101
For each ballistic or missile weapon, divide the number of shots for that weapon the unit carries by the number of such weapons on the unit. If the result is less than 10, the damage value for each such weapon must be multiplied by 0.75, with the following additional conditions.

Calculations

Base damage LRM medium range 2 x 0.9 = 1.8

Ammunition modifier 16 reloads / 2 launchers = 8 shots per launcher < 10 ammo modifier applies

Ammo modified damage 1.8 × 0.75 = 1.35

To verify if the minimum damage threshold (1) for the LRM ability is reached, we need to apply modification by heat to the non rounded damage value (1.35).

Heat modified damage (1.35×15)÷(26-4)
=0.9204545455

As the LRM conversion rule states
after heat-modification and before final damage rounding 0.9204545455<1

We do not reach the threshold therefore no LRM ability should be assigned to the Catapult unless there is some rounding hidden somewhere :)

Thanks

Thunder

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Gruber

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #952 on: 28 August 2019, 10:08:55 »
Annihilator ANH-1A

Per MUL, PV is 31.

Per my calculations (based on the 1st printing of Alpha Strike Companion & v1.2 of the Errata), PV should be :
  • Offensive Value:
    • Attack Damage Factor:  Short + Medium + Long + Medium = 5 + 5 + 0 + 5 = 15
    • Unit Size Factor:  SZ 4, 4 / 2 = 2
    • Overheat Factor:  OV1 = +1
    • Offensive Special Abilities:  none
    • Subtotal:  15 + 2 + 1 = 18
    • Modifier:  Base 1.0 + 0 = 1.0
    • Final Offensive Value:  18 x 1.0 = 18.0
  • defensive Value:
    • Movement Factor:  4" / 8 = 0.5
    • Defensive Special Abilities:  none
    • Defensive Interaction Raring/DIR
      • Armor Rating:  7 points x 2.0 (non-Vehicle) = 14.0
      • Structure Rating:  8 points x 1.0 (BattleMech) = 8.0
      • Defense Factor:  4" = +0 modifier; 0/10 = 0.0, 1.0 + 0.0 = 1.0
      • Total DIR:  (14 + 8) x 1.0 = 22 x 1.0 = 22.0; rounding to nearest 0.5 is still 22.0
    • Final Defensive Value:  0.5 + 0 + 22 = 22.5
  • Final Point Value:  18 + 22.5 = 40.5, rounding down to 40


Actually the PV of the Annihilator ANH-1A if we apply the Brawler modifier is 30 not 31

40×0.75=30

Did we miss some rounding somewhere?
Or it is actually 30 instead of 31

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #953 on: 28 August 2019, 10:47:02 »
The final rounding is done after all modifiers. 
ANH-1A's Point Value Subtotal is 40.5.  Brawler is -10 for a 30.5.  Round normal to 31.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #954 on: 28 August 2019, 10:53:10 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7346/hunchback-hbk-7s

Movement needs to be rounded up to 16.

Thanks, done.
PV also adjusted to 52.  This was not because of the MV change, it was just an error I noticed while fixing the MV.

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #955 on: 28 August 2019, 11:03:10 »
Potential conversion issue LRM ability.
CPLT-C1 Catapult.

Hey there I think there is a potential issue on the LRM ability conversion for the Catapult C1

Based on

ASC Page 126
Conversion: A unit receives this special if it carries any number of standard or enhanced LRM and/or MML launchers that, when combined, are capable of delivering 1 or more points of damage
at Medium range after heat-modification and before final damage rounding.

June 2018 errata page 9 ASC Page 101
Damage Subtotal: A unit’s total damage at a given range bracket modified by everything except heat (such as ammunition or targeting computers). No rounding is applied.

• Heat-Modified Damage: Any unit whose heat production is significantly greater than its dissipation will have to reduce its damage. This process is covered in Converting Heat (see p. 115). However, even if the unit does not reduce its damage due to heat, or even if the unit does not track heat at all, the damage subtotals are rounded to the nearest tenth and the results are still referred to as the unit’s heat-modified damage.

Ammunition page 101
For each ballistic or missile weapon, divide the number of shots for that weapon the unit carries by the number of such weapons on the unit. If the result is less than 10, the damage value for each such weapon must be multiplied by 0.75, with the following additional conditions.

Calculations

Base damage LRM medium range 2 x 0.9 = 1.8

Ammunition modifier 16 reloads / 2 launchers = 8 shots per launcher < 10 ammo modifier applies

Ammo modified damage 1.8 × 0.75 = 1.35

To verify if the minimum damage threshold (1) for the LRM ability is reached, we need to apply modification by heat to the non rounded damage value (1.35).

Heat modified damage (1.35×15)÷(26-4)
=0.9204545455

As the LRM conversion rule states
after heat-modification and before final damage rounding 0.9204545455<1

We do not reach the threshold therefore no LRM ability should be assigned to the Catapult unless there is some rounding hidden somewhere :)

Thanks

Converting Heat Errata v1.1 for Heat-modified damage says "The result is rounded up to the nearest tenth place, then rounded up again to the nearest whole number".

9.205 gets rounded to the nearest tenth place 9.2, then rounded up to the nearest whole number, 10.
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Wraithcannon

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #956 on: 28 August 2019, 11:19:53 »
Whomever said violence isn't a solution obviously wasn't using enough.

Planning an operation against the Capellans? Hey, who wouldn't? - Sulla

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #957 on: 28 August 2019, 11:49:02 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2788/salamander-battle-armor-laser

Battle Value for 5 man squad is off, possibly more.

The 5 Trooper Squad BV looks correct. It's the 4 Trooper Squad BV that's off.  Corrected that to 292.



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Thunder

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #958 on: 29 August 2019, 00:01:52 »
The final rounding is done after all modifiers. 
ANH-1A's Point Value Subtotal is 40.5.  Brawler is -10 for a 30.5.  Round normal to 31.

Brawler for 40.5 isnt -10.  Its -10.125.  And this is the backwards way of looking at it.  Brawler in this case is supposed to be a .75 multiplier applied to the pv subtotal.  40.5 x .75= 30.375.  Which rounds down to 30.  This is the same issue noted with that cluster of battle armor designs a few posts ago.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #959 on: 29 August 2019, 00:04:05 »
The brawler adjustment is being looked at, we got another similar question about rounding that made it clear we need something changed.  I don’t know what that change is yet.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.