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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 121139 times)

TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #540 on: 27 December 2016, 14:44:28 »
"Hoarding" mistakes - that is, not reporting them because they're in your favor - or rejecting direct developer input is generally considered poor form, and is just going to prolong arguments.

As I've no idea from where this information is taken, I cannot say what is/is not a mistake. There is no canon publication for many of them, outside of RATs. Which means that the data is either taken directly from a RAT, or from the developers'/authors' notes, or some other source which remains unpublished. Which is why I have not posted anything further. I'm not "hoarding" anything. Without more information on the MUL's sources, or feedback on the things I have posted, I cannot fact-check or post (possible) errors.

My follow-up question would then be, "what are the sources being used to determine availability?" Or, just narrowing it down for illustrative purposes; "what was the source of the Warhammer WHM-6Rb availability?" The answer to that would go a long way in helping me/others fact-check things and submit potential errors. :) If we don't know what sources are valid, how can we check them? 
« Last Edit: 27 December 2016, 14:48:19 by TigerShark »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #541 on: 27 December 2016, 15:10:59 »
Quit the arguing before I start deleting posts.

This is for posting feedback about the MUL to the MUL team.  It's for a conversation between the MUL team and players, not players arguing with other players.  There's an entire forum outside of MUL feedback thread for that.

ColBosch, you're not on the MUL team any more.  I understand you had insight, but arguing with players is not something we want or need it.

TigerShark, 99% of the MUL information had to be made up.  There's often not a source, other than the MUL itself.  Feel free to point out if you think we missed a source that's contradictory, and ignore ColBosch. (And we'll get to your previous posts at some point, I'm just busy over the winter holidays so don't have the time to do the research yet that it deserves).
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TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #542 on: 27 December 2016, 15:36:22 »
TigerShark, 99% of the MUL information had to be made up. 

That helps a lot, actually. :) I've several I could post (Jihad-era) which make sense, based on that. Thanks.
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #543 on: 28 December 2016, 21:53:50 »
TRO3039 p.66-67  **PDF version, "Corrected Second Printing"**
The weapons entry for the primary variant of the Vedette puts the MG in the turret; it doesn't mention where it should go for the others. (Intuitively, the MG is maintained throughout the other variants; only the primary weapon is weight-swapped).

Is it possible the [the Vedette's] Record Sheets were wrong?

**edit: source**

Yep, thanks.  Vedette AS card corrected.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #544 on: 28 December 2016, 22:00:44 »
I noticed the Whitworth WTH-1 isn't listed as available to the Star League during the Star League era even though TRO3039 (pg 126) description implies the variant was made at the request of Star League Defense Forces:

Star League Regular faction availability added for Star League era.
Thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #545 on: 28 December 2016, 22:03:25 »
Vulture MkIII "D" variant:
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6275/vulture-mk-iii-d

Sources:
TRO3145_Clans p.41
RS3145_Unabridged p.454
AlphaStrike Companion (conversion process p.90-142)

Damage is currently listed as "5/5/3" for 39 PV.  I believe this is in error and should instead be "6/6/4" and 43 PV

2x clan RAC5 damage = 4.0/4.0/4/.0       [ASC table values p.108]
...with 60 shots per weapon (120 shots, or 6 tons of ammo combined), the damage should not be reduced by the Insufficient Ammo multiplier  [ASC p.101]
2x clan Medium Pulse damage = 1.54/1.54/-

Total Heat = 12(6)+8(4)+2(engine) = 22 total heat
Total Heat Dissipation = 24 (12 double heat sinks)
...since "24 > 22" there is no need to check for Overheat.  The unit is efficient.

Final damage should be 5.54/5.54/4.0 ~ 6/6/4
I have calculated a +4 increase in OFV, which should directly affect the PV of the unit.

Yep, I think they missed the ammo in the CT.  AS Card corrected, thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #546 on: 28 December 2016, 22:08:10 »
Also the Hata-moto Chi, HTM-28T (Shin) variant needs to have someone look it over.  (I don't have the TRO, but, from the Record Sheet, there's a few things needing corrected).


Yeah, there's nothing in the TR saying what it has at all, so the RS is all there is.  AS Card corrected.  Thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #547 on: 28 December 2016, 22:10:49 »
The CPLT-K2 and ZEU-6S intro dates are still being reviewed.  If there's something else asked about that hasn't been responded to, feel free to bump, I may have lost it in the backlog.
Thanks.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #548 on: 29 December 2016, 07:05:59 »
I found a mention of the 'HH-1 compact mobile shipyard' in Wars of Reaving (page 35).

Could this unit please be added to the MUL, with more details if possible?
Bump

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TigerShark

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #549 on: 30 December 2016, 01:05:05 »
Lynx LNX-9Q
This unit has the availability of "Lyran Commonwealth" during the Star League era. Their manufacturer (Blue Shot Weapons of Solaris VII), was under the control of the Free Worlds League at the time. (2765:FWLM, page 25) TRO:3058U gives the impression that Solaris was the only site for the LNX-9Q and that the chassis was not made on Loxley.

Suggestion
Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth, Star League Regular, Star League Royal, Terran Hegemony

TRO:3058U, page 212
Quote
When Solaris VII factories were leveled during a House Marik raid in 2928, the surviving Lynx soon found themselves cannibalized for parts, and the line became extinct.
« Last Edit: 30 December 2016, 01:33:28 by TigerShark »
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

  "You will fight to the last soldier, and when you die, I will call upon your damned soul to speak horrible curses at the enemy."
     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

mutantsix

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #550 on: 03 January 2017, 01:06:04 »
Hellcat II HCT-212

Faction availability - the TRO states this ASF was available throughout the SW yet it does not have an entry for late SW (both). I would suggest it should have the same availability as for early SW.

I would also suggest an odd example here or there would be available to mercenary groups

Sigil

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #551 on: 03 January 2017, 09:57:58 »
The Dig King RCL-1M MiningMech MOD has in introduction date of 2573, the same year as the base model.  The Era is listed as "Early Succession War."

The Carbine CON-7M ConstructionMech MOD is listed but there is no entry for the original CON-1 Carbine released in 2691.  This information is clearly stated in the TRO Vehicle Annex.

cavingjan

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #552 on: 03 January 2017, 11:41:52 »
Hellcat II hasn't been reviewed at all for LSW era faction data. I don't think any of that TRO has to be honest. We are currently trying to finished up the post jihad eras before finishing up the LSW. We also need clan data to go with ESW and LSW. I think that era is about 25% done.

I suspect the dig king mod has a wrong date. ESW seems to be when the MODs started appearing in general.

There is an entry for the Carbine -1. It appears to have been in the original set of data from when the MUL was set up. A search for Carbine brings it up for me.

Savage Coyote

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #553 on: 13 January 2017, 09:40:07 »
I was digging around the Arctic Wolf II and noticed that it was only available to Wolves in Exile and Kell Hounds through three eras.  It does appear in the Sea Foxes RAT table in FM3145 (pg 219.)  I know RATs are the end-all-be-all on what a faction can field, but if it appears in a RAT, would a faction have enough of them to make the MUL as well?

I searched to see if this had come up with this unit but couldn't find anything.  Thanks!

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #554 on: 13 January 2017, 11:30:17 »
I was digging around the Arctic Wolf II and noticed that it was only available to Wolves in Exile and Kell Hounds through three eras.  It does appear in the Sea Foxes RAT table in FM3145 (pg 219.)  I know RATs are the end-all-be-all on what a faction can field, but if it appears in a RAT, would a faction have enough of them to make the MUL as well?

I searched to see if this had come up with this unit but couldn't find anything.  Thanks!
Added Lyrans and Clan Sea Fox for Late Republic and Dark Ages availabilities.
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Starbuck

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #555 on: 15 January 2017, 09:45:34 »
STINGER  STG-5G

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3062/stinger-stg-5g

should not have an OV 1

it has only one weapon, a light PPC with capacitor, and 10 DHS (according to RS3085 PP, and i checked the errata thread whether it are DHS or SHS).
even with single HS it could not overheat (11 heat build-up vs. 10 heat dissipation), so it should be corrected to OV 0 and PV 13 (it loses one point in the calculation for OV value).

(and btw, it would be impossible, even with AS conversion up-rounding all weapon damage, to deal 2 damage points with only a light PPC w/ capacitor.  ;) )

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Bren

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #556 on: 25 January 2017, 17:12:15 »
I could easily be missing something here, but I was wondering about the Faction Availability of the Rifleman IIC 8 and 5;

Of the IIC 8 (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2717/rifleman-iic-8) TRO3085 says:
"This variant appeared in forces from all three Clans who soiled New Earth with their presence ... Though offered to all Inner Sphere factions, prior to 3080 the IIC 8 only appeared with the Sharks, Wolves, Falcons, Bears and AFFS. Since then, the DCMS and Duchy of Oriente have both aquired the design in small numbers."

This doesn't seem to agree with what's in the MUL for the Rifleman IIC 8.

Of the Rifleman IIC 5 (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2714/rifleman-iic-5), TRO3085 continues:
"In a futile attempt to confuse us, the putrid Falcons deployed a second variant of the Rifleman IIC ... The second variant identified by the Blakists is the IIC 5."

This is presumably the Rifleman IIC refit the Jade Falcons have coming out of Red Devil Industries on Pandora, but as per the MUL, it is not available to the Falcons but is available to a host of factions that the Falcons generally wouldn't trade with (trade of the merchant or warrior caste variety). I think the IIC 5 was mistakenly thought to have come from the Diamond Shark line on Twycross in the MUL.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2017, 17:14:02 by Bren »

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #557 on: 26 January 2017, 01:10:06 »
Constable Pacification Suit

The MUL restricts availability to the Rasalhague Dominion.   According to its source material:

Quote from: TRO:3145 The Clans
Despite its preliminary stigma as being
of Dominion manufacture, the suit went on to
see service in the Draconis Combine with ISF
agents and the occasional Civilian Guidance
Corps emergency response team.

The source goes on to give an example of a notable ISF operation making use of the suits, and one of the two notable pilots is a Combine agent.

According to the fluff, even though there's no evidence of its use by the actual military, the paramilitaries of the Combine seem to make notable use of suit, even if it may or may not be widespread use by those paramilitaries.  Should Draconis Combine availability be added?

Sigil

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #558 on: 26 January 2017, 14:15:53 »
The CPLT-K2 and ZEU-6S intro dates are still being reviewed.  If there's something else asked about that hasn't been responded to, feel free to bump, I may have lost it in the backlog.
Thanks.

Any movement on this question?

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #559 on: 27 January 2017, 14:15:52 »
Karhu C - http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1750/karhu-c

Per AlphaStrike Companion Conversion p.90-142
Per TRO3085 p.163, "Weapon Configuration C"

"HT2/2/2" should not be available to this variant, as Clan Plasma Cannons are not present on the equipment list in the TRO.
All other stats appear accurate (Armor, Movement, Damage, and applicable Specials).

The omission of the HT special should reduce the OFV by 2.5 (I calculated the total PV to be 42.25, which rounds normally [down] to 42).



Upon consorting with the Record Sheets (3085_Cutting Edge p.229-233) the "C" configuration has replaced the "Prime" configuration found in the TRO.  Also, the allocation of some of the "fixed" Critical Slots do not conform to the TRO.  Information was made known in the individual Errata thread (3085) but the info is dated, and does not read like any adjustments were made [to either the TRO or Record Sheets].

I have a proposed "fix" for the Record Sheets, but am holding to see what transpires in the other errata threads.

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #560 on: 27 January 2017, 14:49:16 »
Karhu C fixed to match TRO as the RS 3085 errata says to use the TRO stats.
Thanks.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #561 on: 27 January 2017, 15:23:41 »
Not to be rude, but the previous version (with the HT2/2/2) was 45 PV (44.75, rounded up)
The corrected version should be 42 PV (44.75 - 2.5 = 42.25). 

OFV = 17
. (4+4+4+3 damage + 1.5 size + 0 overheat + 0.5 MEL special)
DFV = 25.25
. DIR + MF
. . DIR = [(7*2) + 4] x [1+(3 tmm/10)] ~ 23.4, or 23.5 (round, nearest half)
. . MF = 10/8 + 0.5 jump = 1.25 + 0.5 = 1.75
GFB = +0
« Last Edit: 27 January 2017, 16:04:25 by nckestrel »

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #562 on: 27 January 2017, 16:04:56 »
. . DIR = [(7*2) + 4] x [1+(3 tmm/10)] ~ 23.4, or 23.5 (round, nearest half)

TMM is 2, not 3? Only infantry include the +1 for jump now, as of v1.1 errata.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #563 on: 27 January 2017, 16:20:11 »
My apologies-- I missed the v1.1 errata to the DIR calculation (40 would be correct).

Odd.  When (or rather, *why*) did that change?  (link discussion, if available to public?)

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Xotl

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #564 on: 27 January 2017, 21:08:08 »
It changed because when the PV system was first written jumping was a mandatory movement mode (i.e. it repalced ground movement completely) and only offered a +1 attack penalty.  In the process of Alpha Strike's development, jumping became an option but also the attack penalty rose to +2.  At that point I felt it was unfair for a guy to be charged as if they were jumping all the time when making attacks, because not only did they not have to, they probably weren't if they wanted to hit something.

Infantry still pay because they don't get the attack penalty when jumping.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #565 on: 28 January 2017, 00:54:57 »
It changed because when the PV system was first written jumping was a mandatory movement mode (i.e. it replaced ground movement completely) and only offered a +1 attack penalty.

Small correction, jumping in the 1st printing had no attacker penalty.  They got a +1 target modifier for being jump capable (which led to errata clarifying that the unit had to actually use  jump movement to get the +1 for jumping), but there was no penalty to attacks by a jumping unit.  The ASC/2nd printing jumped (oops, sorry for the pun) directly to a +2 attacker modifier for jumping.

So the original PV was based on a "free" +1 target movement modifier with no penalty.  It was clearly beneficial.  A +2 to attacks penalty to get a +1 when targeted is much less clearly beneficial.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #566 on: 29 January 2017, 00:19:25 »
I suppose I can see both your points...

Without meaning to discuss the matter, I'm concerned that the ability to jump was always held a distinctive tactical value over units incapable of jumping, (which is why I assumed it was in the Defense Factor calculations to begin with).

Is there some other way to pay for jump capability?

Jumping while suffering Overheat, for instance.  Those with heat levels 1-3 can still jump their full [jump] movement, while units that lack jump capability must hobble/standstill until they cool off [in this case, purely a defensive tactic]

And what about units equipped with Partial Wings and Improved Jump Jets whose [jump] movement often expands into the next bracket? (6"/10"j goes from +1 to +3 total TMM when jumping).  The movement modifiers usually offset the attack penalty (+2 TMM,+2 TN) while controlling/threatening more ground area [both offensive and defensive tactical].

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #567 on: 29 January 2017, 01:30:38 »
Jumping does add a movement factor.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #568 on: 31 January 2017, 08:56:11 »
TRO 3039 page 58 states the Machine Gun variant of the Goblin is a "rare Kurita variant".  The MUL lists no Draconis Combine availability for this variant after the Early Succession War era (where it's IS General, Mercenary, and Periphery General): http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1224/goblin-medium-tank-mg

Curiously, the SRM variant of the Goblin is listed with exclusive Draconis Combine (and Rasalhague, during its existence) availability after the Early Succession War era: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1225/goblin-medium-tank-srm

It appears the two variants were confused at some point with regard to their availability.  Recommend adding Draconis Combine/Rasalhague availability to the MG variant, and wider availability to the SRM variant (which isn't characterized as a "Kurita" variant).  The Combine already has access to the base and LRM variants.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #569 on: 01 February 2017, 15:10:23 »
are the Trooper TP-1R from Primitives Vol 5 (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7407/trooper-tp-1r) and the Trooper TRP-1 metioned in the Flea writeup in TRO 3039 (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5301/trooper-trp-1) discrete designs, or does the new TP-1R make the TRP-1 a redudant entry?