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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 133695 times)

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #900 on: 16 June 2019, 15:44:12 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Colt

Problem: There is a variant of the Colt Medium Fighter described in the text, mounting SRMs. Searching the MUL for Colt, only 1 entry is found. Here is the quote from XTRO:Primitives, Vol V, p. 13, "Colt Medium Fighter", 3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence-
"(A short-range variant, which swapped the LRMs for quad-SRM launchers also fed by a single one-ton magazine, was introduced by EAC in 2375.)"

Thank you!
S.gage

Thanks, entry added.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #901 on: 16 June 2019, 15:45:12 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7193/hammerhead-hmr-ha

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the HMR-HA Hammerhead is 2402. XTRO:Primitives Vol IV, p. 13, HMR-HA Hammerhead says-
Solution: Change "Date Introduced" to 2407.
S.gage

Done, thanks.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #902 on: 16 June 2019, 15:48:56 »
Problem: "Date Introduced" from all of the above Striga pages is 3072. From TRO:3075, p. 102, "S-STR-O Striga", Overview, 3rd sentence-
"The Rusalka and Shade fighters that followed [the Striga's] late-3071 debut would further refine the unique silhouette-changing features that have become the Spectrals’ hallmark,..."

TR3075 Shade entry (p98) makes it clear the Striga "rolled off the refurbished assembly lines" in late 3071.  So we ruled they didn't actually see deployment till 3072.

Quote
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4170/firebird-fr-1

Problem: MUL lists the "Date Introduced" for the FR-1 Firebird as 2400. Strategic Operations, p. 15, says "Firebird (2390)".
Additionally, ED:AoW, p. 28, "Firebird", says-
"The Firebird did not survive long once aerospace technologies matured. Obsolescent from its birth, after a mere twenty years this fighter was hopelessly obsolete. The Capellan Confederation scrapped the last of its Firebirds by 2420.

While this could imply 2400, it does not preclude the CC using the "hopelessly obsolete" Firebird for an additional decade (honestly, it seems like something the old CC might do  ;) ).

Solution: Write errata for Strategic Operations
or
Adjust the "Date Introduced" for the FR-1 Firebird to 2390.

If you need errata written for Strategic Operations, I can post it, it is currently on the first Errata page.

S.gage
Agree with your reasoning here, changed to 2390.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #903 on: 16 June 2019, 15:54:30 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2959/slayer-sl-15

Problem: the "Date Introduced" for the SL-15 Slayer (the original production model) is 2657. TRO: 3039, p. 214, "Slayer", "Capabilities", 1st sentence starts with-
"With the Amaris Crisis raging, the Slayer’s designers had little time to craft a fi ghter’s typically complicated air frame." TRO:3025, p. 144, "SL-15 Slayer", does not heavily suggest an introduction date, simply "...before the collapse of the Star League."

Solution: Adjust the "Date Introduced" to some time during the Amaris Crisis, for instance, 2770.
S.gage

Though it pains me to do so, changed.  (TR3057 gave exact date, but 3039 generally overrules.)
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #904 on: 16 June 2019, 16:01:41 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Transgressor

Potential Problem: The oldest "Date Introduced" for the Transgressor is 2890. From TRO:3025, p. 150 "Transgressor", "Notable Fighters and Pilots", the bio of Colonel Harry S. Yoshita explains Col. Yoshita helped design the original Transgressor. While the bio may have been published years after his design work, it is improbable Yoshita could have helped design the Transgressor in 2890, piloted it, recorded 22 kills, and still be attempting to return to front-line duty in 3025.

Solution: 1. Ignore the discrepancy, the bio could have been written in the 30th century.
2. Adjust the MUL "Date Introduced" closer to 3025.
S.gage

Ignoring.  It's also the standard heavy aerospace fighter of the CC, and moving it that late causes issues as well. 
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #905 on: 16 June 2019, 16:05:52 »
That following 3 report unpublished variants missing from the MUL. Since other unpublished variants are at least listed in the MUL, I thought I would bring them to your attention.
To preserve my sanity, I'm no longer worrying about variant that have no information but a name.  Maybe at a later time.  Gotta prioritize..

Quote
Additionally, unpublished earlier variants (of the Corsair, especially) may warrant adjusting some of the "Date Introduced" for published variants:

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Sparrowhawk

Problem: There are no entries for unpublished versions of the Sparrowhawk, SPR-H1, SPR-H2, SPR-H3, SPR-H4, mentioned in the first paragraph of TRO:3025 (FASA, July 1994 printing), p. 134, SPR-H5 Sparrowhawk.

==========

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Corsair

Problem: There are no entries for unpublished versions of the Corsair, CSR-V1, CSR-V2, CSR-V3, CSR-V4, CSR-V5, CSR-V6, CSR-V7, CSR-V8, mentioned in the third paragraph of TRO:3025 (FASA, July 1994 printing), p. 136, CSR-V12 Corsair.

==========

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Stuka

Problem: There are no entries for unpublished versions of the Stuka, STU-K1 and STU-K2,  mentioned in the 2nd-3rd paragraph of TRO:3025 (FASA, July 1994 printing), p. 138, STU-K5 Stuka. STU-K1 is described as having "difficulties with heat dissipation" and "structural instability". The first Stukas were introduced in 2530, according to TRO:3039, p. 220. This matches the first sentence from the second paragraph from TRO:3025, p. 138-
"The K1 prototype of this fighter rolled off the assembly line in the Lycomb plant on the planet Demeter in 2530."

S.gage

The K1 and K2 are listed. K1 didn't have an intro date, so I'll add that.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5155/stuka-stu-k1
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #906 on: 16 June 2019, 16:10:19 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2935/sholagar-sl-21
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5227/thrush-tr-5
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3201/thrush-tr-7

Problem: From TRO:3039, p. 198, Sholagar, Overview-
"Later used as the base for the Capellan Thrush, the airframe was small and fit well into transports, but its circular wings were unstable in atmospheric flight, resulting in many crashes."
Both the TR-5 and TR-7 Thrush predate the Sholagar on the MUL.

Solutions:
Revise the passage in TRO:3039 to read, "Based on the earlier Capellan Thrush, the airframe was small and fit well into transports, but its circular wings were unstable in atmospheric flight, resulting in many crashes." (best option)
or
Change the "Date Introduced" for the Sholagar to between the TR-5 and TR-7, or to before both the TR-5 and TR-7. This is a much worse option because errata for several publications would be required (for TRO:3025, 3039, etc.)

If errata is required for TRO:3039, I can post it in the thread.
S.gage

House Liao p42 has Normann Aris designing the Thrush.   Yeah, go with errata to TR3039.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #907 on: 16 June 2019, 16:14:28 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2154/mechbuster-standard
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2153/mechbuster-srm

Problem:
Without any explicit dates in TRO:3039, TRO:3026, p. 46, 'MechBuster, states that the "Date Introduced" is 3023. Quote from 2nd sentence-
"Designed in 3023, the 'MechBuster is assigned to replace AeroSpace Fighters in providing air support for garrison forces."
Both links for the 'MechBuster from the MUL list "Date Introduced" before, in 3002 and 3022, respectively.

Solution: Adjust the dates in MUL, or write errata for TRO:3026. If errata for TRO:3026 is preferred, I can post if there is a thread for it. Thank you!
S.gage

Mechbuster changed to 3023, SRM to 3024. Thanks.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #908 on: 16 June 2019, 16:20:21 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1390/harasser-missile-platform-standard
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1386/harasser-missile-platform-leaping-lisa
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1389/harasser-missile-platform-lrm

Problem: Dates Introduced. According to the text of TRO:3026 (original FASA), p. 18, the Harasser was introduced in 2829 (2nd sentence):
"In 2829, House Marik commissioned the Harasser as a companion vehicle to the Galleon."

The three entries above list "Date Introduced" as 2811, 2815, and 2821.

TRO:3039, p. 28, makes no direct mention of the introduction date, but it does reference the same story re: the Harasser's role accompanying Galleons, and losses incurred during the Second Succession War forcing Harasser deployment as a replacement for 2nd line and garrison formations being pressed into front-line service. The later date also fits better with this story - if the Harasser was introduced in 2811 (vs. 2829), it would have 19 years to be deployed with Galleons (vs. just months to deploy in its intended role).

Solution: change these "Date Introduced" entries to dates starting with 2829.
S.gage

3039 says Marik acquired a bunch of Galleons at the fall of the Star League and this prompted the commissioning of the Harasser. It was viewed that 2829 was way too later to be commissioning something they acquired in the 2780s-2790s.  This was an intentional change from the 2829 data in 3026.
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Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #909 on: 16 June 2019, 20:48:44 »
House Liao p42 has Normann Aris designing the Thrush.   Yeah, go with errata to TR3039.

Thank you! I saw "HLSB" as the source for the TR-5 Thrush, and could not determine what source this was. Should these FASA sourcebooks be added to the "Sources" page? Also, I noticed there was no Handbook: House Kurita in the source list.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Source/Index
Thanks!

S.gage
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #910 on: 16 June 2019, 23:20:54 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=heavy+wheeled+apc
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1432/heavy-hover-apc-mg

Problem: The "Date Introduced" results for Heavy APCs are a bit messy.

All of the Heavy Wheeled APCs in this chart mount standard armor, as well as the Heavy Hover APC (MG). With an introductory date 2460-2470 for standard armor (IO, p. 35), many of these entries probably should have their "Date Introduced" adjusted.

Heavy Tracked APC appears to have been fixed. All entries start at 2470, but there are no "primitive" models listed, either.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Heavy+Tracked+APC

The "primitive" models of the Heavy Hover APC (without cited record sheets) are listed with "Date Introduced" with dates "0", "2370", and "2400".
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=Heavy+Hover+APC

Solutions: Adjust all "introductory" technology Heavy Hover and Heavy Wheeled APCs to become available no earlier than 2470.

(Please note: primitive versions of these vehicles would definitely be available beforehand. I look at these vehicles as the "latest iteration".)

S.gage
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #911 on: 16 June 2019, 23:33:04 »
The APCs have so little armor that we were willing to fudge using the same RS earlier. 
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S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #912 on: 17 June 2019, 10:21:24 »
The APCs have so little armor that we were willing to fudge using the same RS earlier.

I understand.

=====

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6378/shillelagh-missile-tank-standard

Problem: The Shillelagh (original) is listed as tech Standard. The record sheet in TRO:3145DC says Intro.

Solution: Change the tech to Introductory.

======

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6655/crane-heavy-transport-standard

Problem: Technology Level of the Crane Heavy Transport on MUL is Standard. Unless I am missing something, the Crane should be Introductory (it has 4 MGs and infantry capacity). The record sheet in TR:3145RS was not helpful here, as it has errata, too.

Solution: Change tech level to Introductory.

======

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2811/saxon-apc-standard

Problem: The Saxon APC gives a tech base as Standard. From reading TR:3075, pp. 48-49, "Saxon APC", there appears to be no advanced equipment or construction materials used in the Saxon

Solution: Change the MUL tech rating for the Saxon APC (standard) to Introductory.

=======

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4602/marsden-mbt-i

Problem: The Marsden I MBT is listed under "Unit Type" as Support Vehicle - Tracked. It should be a combat vehicle.

Solution: Change "Unit Type" to Combat Vehicle - Tracked.


Never mind, support here is unit type, my fault

S.gage
« Last Edit: 17 June 2019, 18:02:06 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #913 on: 17 June 2019, 17:03:20 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1817/korvin-tank-krv-3
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.0

Problem: Errata thread from TR:3075, p. 238, says the "Date Introduced" for the Korvis KRV-3 (Intro tech) should be 2530. MUL "Date Introduced" is 2544. Additionally, XTR:Primitives Vol III, p. 10 (no errata yet) still has the pre-errata date, 2430.

I prefer 2544 (simply because I read MUL before the errata thread), which one should be used?

Of course, whatever the decision, I can write the errata thread posts. Thanks!
S.gage
« Last Edit: 20 June 2019, 15:39:02 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #914 on: 18 June 2019, 00:37:57 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6766/thunderbolt-tdr-5sb2

Problem: I can find no reference to TDR-5Sb2 Thunderbolt in Historical: Operation Klondike. Also, with a "Date Introduced" of 2680, appears to have been introduced before the TDR-5Sb Thunderbolt (2753).

Solution: Fix the source if one exists. If not, remove from the MUL.
S.gage
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #915 on: 18 June 2019, 00:56:24 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6766/thunderbolt-tdr-5sb2

Problem: I can find no reference to TDR-5Sb2 Thunderbolt in Historical: Operation Klondike. Also, with a "Date Introduced" of 2680, appears to have been introduced before the TDR-5Sb Thunderbolt (2753).

Solution: Fix the source if one exists. If not, remove from the MUL.
S.gage
The TDR-5Sb2 is the exact same unit as the -5Sb, except with a standard PPC since the ER- version had yet to be invented. It's a bit backward, as you expect the second version to be the -2, but the ER-PPC variant becomes the -Sb and the PPC version becomes the -Sb2 when the later one comes in.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #916 on: 18 June 2019, 00:58:47 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6766/thunderbolt-tdr-5sb2

Problem: I can find no reference to TDR-5Sb2 Thunderbolt in Historical: Operation Klondike. Also, with a "Date Introduced" of 2680, appears to have been introduced before the TDR-5Sb Thunderbolt (2753).

Solution: Fix the source if one exists. If not, remove from the MUL.
S.gage

Check the notes on this entry.  The TDR-5Sb2 is the original model to the 5Sb that replaced the standard PPC with an ER PPC when available.  The intro date supports that.  The change on the record sheets is a simple enough one that an Alpha Strike card was made for it without an actual record sheet being published.

It might be one of maybe two or three other designs in the entire game to have that distinction.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #917 on: 18 June 2019, 12:48:09 »
Check the notes on this entry.  The TDR-5Sb2 is the original model to the 5Sb that replaced the standard PPC with an ER PPC when available.  The intro date supports that.  The change on the record sheets is a simple enough one that an Alpha Strike card was made for it without an actual record sheet being published.

It might be one of maybe two or three other designs in the entire game to have that distinction.

Thank you, I did not know there was a canon Thud published as an alpha strike card. It still might make sense adjusting the introductory date for the -5Sb2 to after the -5Sb, a lower-heat Royal version of the Thud. My reasoning: At the (almost) ideal range for combining short- and long-range brackets, 180 m, a stationary TDR-5Sb overheats by 3 (ERPPC, LRM, 3 ML, 1 successful Streak). The -5Sb2 can have the same weapons strike can run an remain cool, which is advantageous for a 4/6/0 BattleMech.
S.gage
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #918 on: 18 June 2019, 12:55:08 »
Thank you, I did not know there was a canon Thud published as an alpha strike card. It still might make sense adjusting the introductory date for the -5Sb2 to after the -5Sb, a lower-heat Royal version of the Thud. My reasoning: At the (almost) ideal range for combining short- and long-range brackets, 180 m, a stationary TDR-5Sb overheats by 3 (ERPPC, LRM, 3 ML, 1 successful Streak). The -5Sb2 can have the same weapons strike can run an remain cool, which is advantageous for a 4/6/0 BattleMech.
S.gage

Beyond the MUL's purpose.  We had to do something about the 'Mechs that existed despite having ER PPCs that didn't exist yet.  TPTB were firm that we couldn't change the intro date of the ER PPC.  That left either errata all those 'Mechs to introduce very late in the Star League (with several causing other issues), or there was a short-term version without the ER PPC.  We went with the last option there.  The 2 'mechs are versions that got their ER PPCs after their introduction.  We can't make further changes.
Moving the 2s after the "true" versions would defeat the point. We needed a version that exists at the intro date they were stated to have, before the existence of their ER PPCs.  That was the limit of our purpose.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #919 on: 18 June 2019, 14:25:39 »
House Liao p42 has Normann Aris designing the Thrush.   Yeah, go with errata to TR3039.

Ok, so reading this reference, I realized there are a few entries that may need adjusting to remove temporal conflicts for the TDR-5S, the WHM-6L, and the TR-5. I'm putting all 3 in the same post because they reference many of the same sources:

Timeframe
1. House Liao, the Capellan Confederation, pp. 41-42: Normann Aris, Chancellor 2599-2611. Before, he is a weapons designer, worked on modern Thunderbolt, Capellan variant of the Warhammer, and later improved Thrush. (written in this order)
2. IO, p. 35: Ferro Aluminum Armor standard production in Terran Hegemony after 2571
3. ED:AoW, p. 11, Capellan Confederation introduces "modern" battlefield technology in 2524.

For frame of reference, I will refer to the points above with the same numbers below

========
TDR-5S Thunderbolt http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3238/thunderbolt-tdr-5s

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the TDR-5S is 2505. If designed by CC and Norman Aris, it is 1) 106 years before the death of its designer, 3) 19 years before CC introduces modern battlefield technology.

Solution: Adjust the "Date Introduced" for the TDR-5S Thunderbolt to ~2530. means 1) a very young Normann Aris (say, 20 years old) works on the Thud, dies ~100 years old. 3) CC has introduced "modern" technology. This also gives it more than 40 years to become a standard 'Mech for the FWL, TH, SL in time for the Reunification War.

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WHM-6L Warhammer http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3487/warhammer-whm-6l

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the WHM-6L Warhammer is 2825. 1) If this is the variant designed by Normann Aris, this is ~214 years after his death. (While the design could have sat un-produced for centuries, the reference from House Liao: The Capellan Confederation also says the improvement to the Thrush came afterwards.)

Making things more complicated,TR:3025, p. 96, "Variants" says, 1st paragraph- "Several variants on the Warhammer have appeared since the fall of the Star League, and usually involve additional heat sinks and altered weaponry."
3rd paragraph- "Also known as the ‘Hot Hammer’, the WHM-6L is a House Liao variant that replaces the machine guns with two flamers."
There may be more references to the WHM-6L I have not found.

Solution: It looks like FASA did the retcon here in 1988. House Liao may have already modified their Warhammer to be more terrifying to infantry during the Age of War. Adjust this variant's "Date Introduced" to between the TDR-5S Thunderbolt and the TR-5 Thrush.

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TR-5 Thrush http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5227/thrush-tr-5

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the TR-5 Thrush is 2510. First Succession War, p. 150, says the TR-5 has Ferro-Aluminum armor. The TR-5 Thrush also appears in time for the Reunification War, according to RAT, p. 173, even though Ursula Liao stayed out of this war directly.
1) Normann Aris would therefore die 101 years after working on the Thrush. 2) IO, p. 35, says Ferro-Aluminum was standard production in 61 years later in Terran Hegemony. Maybe Ursula Liao got this technology for her war vote (Reunification War, p. 50). 3) This is also 14 years before "modern" battlefield tech.

Solution: Adjust the TR-5 Thrush "Date Introduced" to ~2575, early enough to be available for the CC for the RW.

Sorry for this crazy long post, I hope it helps!
S.gage
« Last Edit: 18 June 2019, 14:31:50 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #920 on: 18 June 2019, 14:37:08 »
Beyond the MUL's purpose.  We had to do something about the 'Mechs that existed despite having ER PPCs that didn't exist yet.  TPTB were firm that we couldn't change the intro date of the ER PPC.  That left either errata all those 'Mechs to introduce very late in the Star League (with several causing other issues), or there was a short-term version without the ER PPC.  We went with the last option there.  The 2 'mechs are versions that got their ER PPCs after their introduction.  We can't make further changes.
Moving the 2s after the "true" versions would defeat the point. We needed a version that exists at the intro date they were stated to have, before the existence of their ER PPCs.  That was the limit of our purpose.

Ok. I just provided a rationale, but it does not need to be used. Thank you for the clarification!
S.gage
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #921 on: 18 June 2019, 15:26:16 »
s.gage out here doing the lord's work

question: does adding a trailer hitch to a vee automatically make it standard rules rather than intro?

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #922 on: 18 June 2019, 15:31:29 »
Ok, so reading this reference, I realized there are a few entries that may need adjusting to remove temporal conflicts for the TDR-5S, the WHM-6L, and the TR-5. I'm putting all 3 in the same post because they reference many of the same sources:

S.gage

Short answer, ignore that reference, it doesn't make sense. Also ignore my post mentioning it.  There's no making sense of that line.  Capellan propoganda.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #923 on: 18 June 2019, 16:15:57 »
Short answer, ignore that reference, it doesn't make sense. Also ignore my post mentioning it.  There's no making sense of that line.  Capellan propoganda.

Lol makes sense for Normann Aris. Like Gen Kerensky inventing the 100-ton assault sewing machine lol.
The timeline in ED:AoW really gives headaches, too. 2524 is after some more early Capellan production.

My current exercise, I was considering ED:AoW with the LTN-G15, and TR-10 (and/or TR-9). My best guess without changing the ED was LTN-G15 2525 (and book ref to 2 years unused lines, then 2527 short production run), followed by TR-10 in 2529, followed again by a lower designation TR-9 after in the 27th-28th century. But disregarding the F-A armor and "modern" constraints, I got nothing.
S.gage
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

Daryk

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #924 on: 18 June 2019, 17:01:48 »
S. gage, don't forget human lifespan was up to around 120 years by the time of the Star League, so that might give you a little more wiggle room when looking at dates.  This is one of the things that makes Terrans (and especially Belters) "weird" in 3025.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #925 on: 18 June 2019, 17:07:52 »
S. gage, don't forget human lifespan was up to around 120 years by the time of the Star League, so that might give you a little more wiggle room when looking at dates.  This is one of the things that makes Terrans (and especially Belters) "weird" in 3025.

Agreed completely, that’s what I initially told myself. Part of reconciling dates here was also with “modern” battlefield tech and ferro-aluminum intro dates.
S.gage
« Last Edit: 18 June 2019, 17:11:17 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #926 on: 20 June 2019, 16:27:05 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=alacorn

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the Mk III, IV, and VI do not quite match those in XTR:Prim III, p. 11. Here are quotes from the text-

"Prototype Introduction Date (Mk I, II): 2561"
1st paragraph- "The evaluators put the Mk I through a full series of combat trials,... over the course of three years of evaluations."
2nd paragraph- "The HAF passed on the Alacorn, but the company revisited the design a decade later, this time investing in the use of an extralight fusion engine. It took Corben’s engineering team almost five years to properly integrate the new engine, debuting the Mk. III and IV for approval. ..." (= total of 15 years or 18 years)
"...Mk VI—mounting three of the still-experimental, but massively powerful Gauss rifles—in 2587."

Solution: Adjust the "Date Introduced" for the Alacorn Mk III, IV, and VI to match XTR:Prim III. Still may require additional errata for TR:3058 and TR:3058U. (not recommended)
Mk III - c. 2576 or c. 2579 (depending if that decade started after the rejection of the Mk I or after design submission)
Mk IV - c. 2576 or c. 2579 (depending if that decade started after the rejection of the Mk II or after design submission)
Mk VI - 2587

or

Write errata adjusting the introductory dates in XTR:Prim Vol. III. Something like "two decades" vs. "a decade" later, and adjust the Mk VI date to the MUL (recommended, cleanest solution)

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http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1952/lrm-carrier-standard
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5589/lrm-carrier-primitive

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3030/srm-carrier-standard
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5590/srm-carrier-primitive

Problem: The LRM and SRM Carriers from TR:3039, TR:3026 both have "Date Introduced" of 2407. These are 33 years before the "Date Introduced" for their primitive counterparts (2440), and ~60 years before standard 'Mech-grade armor. No hard references in TR:3039 and TR:3026 here, either.

Solution: Looks like a simple typo, swapping the "0" and "7". I suggest changing the "Date Introduced" to 2470.

If errata is required, I can write the post
S.gage
« Last Edit: 20 June 2019, 16:41:35 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #927 on: 20 June 2019, 16:55:24 »
Gauss Rifles didn’t go into production until 2590.  TM p219. We lost production, not prototype, dates (unless the unit was only ever a prototype). So the Alacorn VI has to be 2590.  Have to check on the III and IV. Those will likely change.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #928 on: 20 June 2019, 18:25:02 »
Gauss Rifles didn’t go into production until 2590.  TM p219. We lost production, not prototype, dates (unless the unit was only ever a prototype). So the Alacorn VI has to be 2590.  Have to check on the III and IV. Those will likely change.

No need, they mount standard ACs, XL, and FF armor

I can write the errata. Thanks!
S.gage
« Last Edit: 20 June 2019, 18:44:02 by S.gage »
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.

S.gage

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #929 on: 21 June 2019, 19:16:44 »
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1648/j-37-ordnance-transport-original

Problem: The "Date Introduced" for the J-37 (original) is currently 2824. TR:3085, p. 54, "J-Series Support Vehicles", 3rd paragraph ends- "In response the company developed the J-37, supplementing their J-27 production starting in the late 28th Century."

Solution: Adjust the MUL "Date Introduced" to a year in the late 28th Century (for example, 2795).
or
change the text from TR:3085 to say- "In response the company developed the J-37, supplementing their J-27 production starting in the early 29th Century."

I can write errata for TR:3085 if necessary. Thanks!
S.gage
"WHO PUT 6 ARMOR ON THE RIFLEMAN'S HEAD?!?" - Peter S., while marking damage from a stray PPC, 1994.

"Ich bin Jadefalke!!!! Ich bin MechKrieger!!!!" - A group of students on their field trip to Leipzig, 1998.