'Mech of the Week: Mad Cat Mk IV (Savage Wolf)

[UnLimiTeD]

C-Bills aren't really worth much anymore in the dark age.
So yes, the C-Bill cost might stay the same, but everything else would be more expensive.
That'd be splitting some pretty fine hairs.
How many munchies you could have bought depends on if they were on offer.

[GreekFire]

So the Savage Wolf will probably retain that cost. But on the bright side one super expensive mech takes less pilots, less food, less water, less clothing and less dropship space.

And I think this hits the nail on the head.
Dropships and jumpships are the limiting factor for most in-universe military forces. Not because they cost a lot (even if they do), but because they're produced in low quantities from a limited number of facilities.

Sure, you can buy more 'Mechs with the kind of money needed for the Mk IV. Problem is, it'll be harder to move them. If you ever plan for any sort of offensive campaign you'll eventually hit a wall where you simply won't be able to find any more dropships or jumpships for sale. And at that point you're better off upgrading the 'Mechs you have.

Enter the Savage Wolf.

[cavingjan]

Is there a unit that only has to deal with offensive operations and never has to deal with defensive operations?

[UnLimiTeD]

I suppose special forces and raiders, unless caught off guard. They would benefit from a durable cavalry mech. Still, unless your funding is unlimited (in which case, build a new dropship factory), at the projected price there'd be enough space left in the ships to use more, and thus, cheaper, units. Though most seem to choose not to believe the price anyways, so that may be a moot point.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The bay limitation also only applies if you need to combat drop, repair in transit, etc.  if you're a unit that usually does garrison work, or comes in in the second or third wave after someone else has established the beachhead, you can probably get by most of the time shipping many if not all of your mechs in cargo.  Even the lowly Mule can fit 80 Atlases, and regiments of light mechs.  Of course then it takes longer to offload, but that's why you send that ship in once the foothold has been established.

[GreekFire]

The bay limitation also only applies if you need to combat drop, repair in transit, etc.  if you're a unit that usually does garrison work, or comes in in the second or third wave after someone else has established the beachhead, you can probably get by most of the time shipping many if not all of your mechs in cargo.  Even the lowly Mule can fit 80 Atlases, and regiments of light mechs.  Of course then it takes longer to offload, but that's why you send that ship in once the foothold has been established.

Yep, and I'm not advocating it for garrison or secondary units. I'm advocating it for front-line regiments that will be on the move more often than not, the regiments that *will* be establishing the beachheads. The fact that it's Clan Omni alone should reserve it for only the best out there.

Is there a unit that only has to deal with offensive operations and never has to deal with defensive operations?

Of course not. But IMO an upgraded regiment that can quickly deploy top-of-the-line firepower no matter the situation is more valuable than two regiments unable to rapidly launch offensives.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, the problem with establishing a beachhead under fire, aka when the enemy expects you, is that you will take losses.
You don't use your best equipment as shocktroopers.
The planetary milita might just be "Ok, our work here is done! Ordered retreat, see you at the next planet. 2 more till bankruptcy". Again, I don't believe the projected prices for a second.
Whatever you try to do, it's not worth the listed money; change a lance of those for LFE-Mechs and you can buy a second dropship. As for the actual mech, say, with BV balance, it is beautiful.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

CGL's position has pretty much been explicitly stated on the forums here, hasn't it?

Monetary cost is no longer any sort of a game-balancing factor.  That makes things awkward for the roleplaying side of the house, but for the game design on the board-game side it's got to be liberating to have one less thing to balance.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yep, and I'm not advocating it for garrison or secondary units. I'm advocating it for front-line regiments that will be on the move more often than not, the regiments that *will* be establishing the beachheads. The fact that it's Clan Omni alone should reserve it for only the best out there.

Of course not. But IMO an upgraded regiment that can quickly deploy top-of-the-line firepower no matter the situation is more valuable than two regiments unable to rapidly launch offensives.

Even a lot of frontline regiments will be landing in the second wave.  Hell, one battalion of a given regiment may do the initial drop, and the other two land later.  There are a lot of ways that a Savage Wolf could find itself operating somewhere behind the point of the sword.

[GreekFire]

Well, the problem with establishing a beachhead under fire, aka when the enemy expects you, is that you will take losses.
You don't use your best equipment as shocktroopers.
The planetary milita might just be "Ok, our work here is done! Ordered retreat, see you at the next planet. 2 more till bankruptcy". Again, I don't believe the projected prices for a second.

I'm...not sure I agree with this. But I'm not sure, I could definitely be wrong.
What would the regiments throw out first? Their lesser equipment? And that lesser stuff has to hold the line while the most advanced 'Mechs come out of cargo bays? Ehh...

Even a lot of frontline regiments will be landing in the second wave.  Hell, one battalion of a given regiment may do the initial drop, and the other two land later.  There are a lot of ways that a Savage Wolf could find itself operating somewhere behind the point of the sword.

Yep, perfectly true. It will happen.
I'm still saying that it's a lot easier to transport and deploy it and 'Mechs like it as part of an invasion than trying to deal with a hoard of cheaper 'Mechs.

I guess this boils down to:
a) is it better to upgrade units within existing regiments, at the cost of slowing down the rate of growth of your military, or
b) is it better to build up more regiments, at the cost of reduced quality overall and a having a larger transportation/logistical footprint.

I believe option A is better, you might think option B is better. I don't think one is righter than the other, they're just two different sides of a coin that make for two different military doctrines.

[glitterboy2098]

on the other hand, a design like this created to just soak up enemy fire and outlast the enemy.. these are the sorts of designs that you might want in the beach-head creating unit.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, it's XXL Engine certainly plays into that.
By the time it drops, it's soaked considerable damage, and there will be more pressing targets, so it's salvageable.
I'd deploy it either in the second wave of the first assault, or give it to special forces that might well be on planet already.
It might also be the first unit out the first dropship, depending entirely on the defenses.
If the planets large and doesn't have anti-orbital defenses, you may well drop in a quiet enough spot that the durability this mech and others like it provide is sufficient to establish a beachhead.
And should the enemy have concentrations of artillery, it may want to drop first so you can press the assault before they shoot themselves in on your dropzone.
If you don't know where the fighting will be hot, they should be withheld until enemy contact, so you can deploy them where needed.

[Nahuris]

It would also vary by commander -- if you have a real aggressive commander, then yeah, this is in the frontlines.
If you have a bean counter commander, he is shrieking about the price and risk, this is his personal ride, and it probably won't get scuffed.
If you have a commander that leads from the front, yep, this is there ---- leads by delegation, maybe not......

By far, the bean counter is the worst, though, he would have his entire force trying to hold a position with Stingers, if he thought it would mean less requisition forms, and having to ask for new supplies. He'd rather kill people, than risk damage to equipment... you can always blame the dead guy for getting killed......
We also call then Corporate Commanders, or CEO Officers.........Bottom line is far more important than the butcher's bill.

Nahuris

[Colt Ward]

Well, if its mercs . . . since they are self-insured that does not work too well.  For House forces there is the bit of political pay.

I like the mech, the way it is arranged seems ok and the few times I have played it the XXL heat was not really a problem.  You factor it like anything else.

The mini . . . I think the arms are too thin and the connection point for the arms has caused me fits.  Had to drill both holes though one is still a problem.

[chanman]

Can anyone confirm whether Mad Cat Mk IV is the IS code name or whether both names are in use by the clans?

[DarkISI]

Can anyone confirm whether Mad Cat Mk IV is the IS code name or whether both names are in use by the clans?

It's the name under which the Sea Foxes sell it to the IS. For the Clans they use the name Savage Wolf.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

It's the name under which the Sea Foxes sell it to the IS. For the Clans they use the name Savage Wolf.

Source?

[GreekFire]

Can anyone confirm whether Mad Cat Mk IV is the IS code name or whether both names are in use by the clans?

The only piece of fiction I remember seeing the Mad Cat Mk IV in is A Bonfire of Worlds. The passages written from Anastasia or Alaric's perspective use Savage Wolf, while the single passage involving Thaddeus Marik has him using Mad Cat IV instead. So that suggests the Clans use Savage Wolf more than anything else.

Then again, the same passages have the Wolves using Vulture instead of Mad Dog, so who knows.

[DarkISI]

Source?

Aside from Bonfire of Worlds (which is the first fiction, but not only, source that comes to mind), all internal discussion and the fact how it's name is arranged in the MUL and all other official sources.

[DarthRads]

I drove one against a mixed Kurita lance. Thing was brutal and survived a PPC head hit thanks to the FL armour.

[Phobos]

Not sure why surviving a regular PPC hit to the face would be anything special?

[Colt Ward]

Its not the hit, its that there would still be 2 points of armor on the head instead of the pilot getting a breezy view of the battlefield.

[DarthRads]

Its not the hit, its that there would still be 2 points of armor on the head instead of the pilot getting a breezy view of the battlefield.

Yep...kept it in the fight that little bit longer...

[The_Caveman]

CGL's position has pretty much been explicitly stated on the forums here, hasn't it?

Monetary cost is no longer any sort of a game-balancing factor.  That makes things awkward for the roleplaying side of the house, but for the game design on the board-game side it's got to be liberating to have one less thing to balance.

Which is fine with me, C-Bills are busted as a balance mechanism before the 3rd SW or after about 3055, but if they're dumping them as a balance factor then something needs to conclusively take their place for those of us who take an RP perspective.

Come to think of it, ComStar isn't even so much a thing in the Dark Age is it? No HPGs, no Com Guards, no tech decline to make them the guardians of information again, so it'd be really strange if their currency was still driving the economy.

[Maelwys]

They're a good default choice that's been around for centuries. People and economies are used to it, and its a neutral choice. Do you think the Capellans are going to agree to using Republic currency as means of Inner Sphere-wide commerce?

Not only that, but until the disruption of the HPG network, the C-bill was actually based on something tangible, something I'm not sure we can say for any of the House currencies.

So the c-bill has been around, its universal, its mostly neutral. Its not too likely that its going to suddenly change. It obviously lost quite a bit of value, but its not going to get replaced right away, especially with all the issues involved.

[Scotty]

It's a terrible balancing mechanism and has been terrible for literally decades of real time.  If you're concerned about the RP aspect of things, the Warchest system and the associated costs and resources is a better way to handle it.  That doesn't mean that the idea of a balancing mechanism using in-universe currency is a terrible one, it's that the way c-bill costs are static across literally 700 years of setting history is utterly non-sensical.  An XL engine in 2750 shouldn't cost the exact same as an XL engine in 3000.  Or in 3145.  An XXL engine in 3067 (or whenever it was first produced) should not cost the same as an XXL engine in 3145.

[The_Caveman]

It's a terrible balancing mechanism and has been terrible for literally decades of real time.  If you're concerned about the RP aspect of things, the Warchest system and the associated costs and resources is a better way to handle it.  That doesn't mean that the idea of a balancing mechanism using in-universe currency is a terrible one, it's that the way c-bill costs are static across literally 700 years of setting history is utterly non-sensical.  An XL engine in 2750 shouldn't cost the exact same as an XL engine in 3000.  Or in 3145.  An XXL engine in 3067 (or whenever it was first produced) should not cost the same as an XXL engine in 3145.

To be fair I don't think that was ever FASA's intent for C-Bills either. The FASA-verse only ran from 3002 to 3068. I don't think there were ever official rules for playing outside that time period and certainly not for price adjustments, earlier eras just existed as fluff.

The money rules just never got updated for some reason when FanPro and Catalyst expanded the playable portion of the timeline. (Probably because not enough people really cared about costs anyway.)

[Scotty]

The FASA verse included the Star League and XL engines available in that era, too, with TRO:2750, and also included a number of Clan second line units that had been in use for hundreds of years.  "Official rules" for playing in any era is and has always been the same set of rules with different pieces of equipment involved (an era that exists 'as fluff' is 100% playable in BattleTech).

C-Bills have been terrible for a lot longer than since 2001.

[The_Caveman]

The FASA verse included the Star League and XL engines available in that era, too, with TRO:2750, and also included a number of Clan second line units that had been in use for hundreds of years.  "Official rules" for playing in any era is and has always been the same set of rules with different pieces of equipment involved (an era that exists 'as fluff' is 100% playable in BattleTech).

C-Bills have been terrible for a lot longer than since 2001.

Yes, but the purpose of including those units in TROs was to have them available for use within the "core" timeline. There were no scenario packs (that I'm aware of) set outside the 31st century, only a couple of sourcebooks, and no MW adventures. If you wanted to play outside the core era, you could in theory, but you were mostly on your own. One of the things I actually like about Cattytech is the fairly strong support for alternate eras.

FFS, C-bills didn't even exist during the Star League era, so pricing Star League 'Mechs in them only makes sense WRT finding one in a lostech cache.

[Wrangler]

I think the cost of the Mk IV's XXL engine maybe a problem for some merc units.  Specially if they need do repairs depending on campaign rules for a merc unit.  If their using abstract repair system like say Warchest System, it may not be not a problem.  Older rules, i think it be bit more difficult especially when you may play it you need go to the Sea Foxes to get your engine parts from, never mind destroyed weapons.

Funny thing reading the fluff in the FM3145, it sounded like C-bill is gone and international money doesn't have much value depending on where your guys are
at some points that mercs are bartering with ammunition as form of money.