Combat Engineering units?

[mbear]

Looking at the actual chart...

It takes 200 damage to reduce a paved hex to rough, or 150 to reduce a paved road. To reduce a clear or rough hex to rough sublevel 1, it takes 200, after all terrain on top of that hex(woods, etc) has been destroyed. A sheer cliff needs 50 damage to reduce to a passable slope.

AE weapons double their damage to terrain, so it would take 3 direct Long Tom hits to reduce a road to a rough road, four to convert an entire paved hex to rough, only a single hit to collapse a sheer cliff, and four hits to create a depth 1 crater.

Time-consuming if you take a while to range in the hex or only have a small battery available...but doable. :)

Thanks for finding this. And if one of those hexes is pre-plotted, maybe it's not as time consuming. (You know the one: That hex that's the only clear space for tanks to drive through between two hills. Yeah. That's going to get cratered ASAP. With Thunder mines on each side of it. Though after hearing some stories about Weirdo, maybe oil slicks to make them slide into the crater.)

The reason I was asking about the craters is I was thinking they might be 'Mech sized foxholes that would provide partial cover. An alternative use might be as a tank trap, but I think tracked and wheeled vehicles can climb out of such holes and hovers and WiGEs just fly right over them.

[Weirdo]

Good sir, I like the cut of your jib. 8)

Thanks for finding this. And if one of those hexes is pre-plotted, maybe it's not as time consuming. (You know the one: That hex that's the only clear space for tanks to drive through between two hills. Yeah. That's going to get cratered ASAP. With Thunder mines on each side of it.

Maxim 44: If it will blow a hole in the ground, it can double as an entrenching tool. :)

Though after hearing some stories about Weirdo, maybe oil slicks to make them slide into the crater.)

Now you're thinking with lube! O0

The reason I was asking about the craters is I was thinking they might be 'Mech sized foxholes that would provide partial cover. An alternative use might be as a tank trap, but I think tracked and wheeled vehicles can climb out of such holes and hovers and WiGEs just fly right over them.

Won't actually work for partial cover, since any shooter that's higher than you gets to ignore it. I suppose you could use this trick to fortify large hills, though. I think my preference would be to reduce enemy earthworks, eliminating a hex or two that you think they're likely to use for cover against you.

I actually rather like the idea of using them for tank traps. You won't stop them, but given the amount of MP they'll waste going down and then back up, that's a hell of a slowdown. And if your opponent thinks you've messed up and given him a handy spot where LRM tanks can't be attacked except at pointblank range, humor him for a turn or two. Then demonstrate the real fun of auto-hit artillery. >:D

[mbear]

Now I'm thinking of combining civil engineering projects with weapon qualification and training:

"Sir the local government is trying to divert a river."
"Great. Have our forward observers chart the new course of the river for them. Then get the artillery company ready."

Sure, the SLDF and DoME wouldn't do it that way, but if you've got the shells and the need...

[Weirdo]

Reminds me of the old plans to dig a second Panama canal...with nukes.

[Colt Ward]

Well, I can think of a few sci fi settings where the irrational fear of nuclear weapons has gone away and they are viewed as slightly more energetic demo charges.  Of course, one of the settings I remember that most with also 'recycled' outdated Brilliant Pebbles type weapons to create a highway cut through some mountains for a future road project.

Alright, what about some of the fiction where we have buildings being dropped onto roads to either seal them off in front of enemies or for the daring to drop them onto an enemy thrust.

[worktroll]

Reminds me of the old plans to dig a second Panama canal...with nukes.

"And we'd have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids!"  [tickedoff]  :worktroll:

And any fiction which demotes fission weapons to being "just more energetic demo" ... you really need to get into magictech, like BT's pure-fusion holy hand-grenades, before that becomes mildy approachable.

W.

[Colt Ward]

One remark on that and I will drop nukes . . . they are an explosive device, you are no more dead from that than sitting on a pound or two of TNT.  They are a boogeyman imbued with a Frankenstein-ish fear.

[worktroll]

Which I'll just say I disagree with, and also leave it at that.

[mbear]

One remark on that and I will drop nukes . . .

I see what you did there.

[Fallen_Raven]

Avoiding the Moderator baiting nuclear discussion, how about them Thunder Munitions? Does anyone use them with something besides an Archer or an LRM carrier? I'm always on the receiving end of multiple LRM-20s, so I'm curious how well they work out when they are deployed at a smaller scale.

[Weirdo]

Given how nasty mine detonations of any size are for vehicles, I'm a big proponent of loading 5-packs with Thunders or T-Augs. At that point, it's about covering large areas with mines for cheap. It doesn't make them impassable to vees, but it certainly discourages their passage through there.

You want laughs, take a Sunder-X, and be sure to load at least one ton of mines. :)

[Colt Ward]

You know what I would have love to seen carried over to tabletop would be the MCG minelayer vehicle.  It rolls along plopping down 20 point contact minefields per hex up to a certain amount before being finished- in MCG I think the vehicle destroyed when it was finished, in MC2 you could use it to keep control of a turret tower.

[Weirdo]

There are several units that mount mine dispensers. The vee you're thinking of would just mount enough of them to drop double fields in several hexes.

[mbear]

There are several units that mount mine dispensers. The vee you're thinking of would just mount enough of them to drop double fields in several hexes.

How many mines are dropped by a mine dispenser? 5? Wait, it must be 10 if you're dropping double fields and getting 20...right?

[Weirdo]

Exactly. Each dispenser has two shots, and each shot drops a single 10-point minefield, of a type determined before the game. They're also really tiny, so it's feasible to mount a LOT of them on a given unit, if customs are your bag.


Hmmm...I'm gonna have to keep this in mind, the next time I get the chance to contribute a canon design. We've had OmniMechs all this time, but have yet to see even one combat engineer config, closest being the Vandal-B. You'd figure they'd have shown up by now, since the need for engineering gear is pretty situational, so you'd only swap in the pods when you need 'em.

[Colt Ward]

I just said I wish it had been made for the game, not suggesting a custom as I am aware of your opinions lol.

But yeah, like the Zug it makes some sense.

[Nahuris]

Yeah, a cannon mine laying vehicle would be great --- actually, many more vehicles overall would be awesome.

Nahuris

[Weirdo]

Cannon mines...

That sounds even more painful than usual.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, it drops Thunder, Sniper or Long Tom Mines . . . maybe Arrow IV mines.

[Nahuris]

Cannon mines...

That sounds even more painful than usual.

Yep, pop up hover craft, with AC's... deployed as hidden drone mines.

Sorry about that..... CANON mine laying vehicles would be great --- also maybe a trenching vehicle as well.

Nahuris

[DoctorX]

Issues I have with mechanized is why I have a separate APC or truck for them and use foot infantry as it is- which is why I suggest them being towed by a vehicle.  Or slung by a chopper.

I know that I am getting into this a little late and this is totally off topic, but I just have to ask you something Colt. Are you saying that you prefer to have Mechanized Infantry units as say a Maxim transport plus a foot platoon instead of the one that has the hover vehicles incorporated into the unit (Infantry Platoon Construction rules, TechManual p 144-155)?

[Colt Ward]

Yes, which is how I play infantry.  Though to be honest I really do not use Maxims with my mercs- too expensive- I like the Blizzard APCs.

[mike19k]

Yes, which is how I play infantry.  Though to be honest I really do not use Maxims with my mercs- too expensive- I like the Blizzard APCs.

This is also how I like to do infantry, but I like tracked APC's.

[Colt Ward]

I will use tracked as well, its just that I do not have many options available.  I would love to get some Main Gauche IFVs but they are not produced yet.

[mbear]

Exactly. Each dispenser has two shots, and each shot drops a single 10-point minefield, of a type determined before the game. They're also really tiny, so it's feasible to mount a LOT of them on a given unit, if customs are your bag.


Hmmm...I'm gonna have to keep this in mind, the next time I get the chance to contribute a canon design. We've had OmniMechs all this time, but have yet to see even one combat engineer config, closest being the Vandal-B. You'd figure they'd have shown up by now, since the need for engineering gear is pretty situational, so you'd only swap in the pods when you need 'em.

I was going to make a suggestion for the engineering 'Mech, then I remembered that I shouldn't because that would prevent it from being introduced. (For any newcomers, don't make suggestions here because the powers that be can't accept them because legal reasons.)

All I will say is that I'd like to see some extra engineering vehicles too. Engineering 'Mechs will be cool enough, but a vehicle (even an omni) will probably be cheaper to buy and produce.

[Weirdo]

While we don't have any vees that can do everything engineer-wise, we've got a lot that can do some of the jobs, and between them, just about everything is covered. Wouldn't mind seeing more though, especially bridgelayers.

[mbear]

While we don't have any vees that can do everything engineer-wise, we've got a lot that can do some of the jobs, and between them, just about everything is covered. Wouldn't mind seeing more though, especially bridgelayers.

Or an Omnivehicle that could swap engineering tools.

[WarGod]

problem being most combat engineering task take longer then battletech turns allow.  Digging hasty position for a tank still takes something like 5-10 minutes, to push the dirt and going by my FM, a berm of unpacked earth needs to be at a minimum 4 feet thick to stop a HE tank round.    digging a proper two tier postion takes even longer. 

Breaching wire, and walls with demo takes significantly less time, but the way BT damage against buildings and walls, this takes longer more then the real world.   Breaching say a wall in real life your just trying to make a hole big enough to get troops into the building or past the wall, not completely rubble the wall.  (we did collapse a lot of buildings and walls, and crater roads to make stops, turn, turn or disrupt obstacles)

Me and Krazzy harry had a talk once about BT and came up with some house rules that are based on BT rules.   Like a demo squad takes 1 turn to lay a charge on a building , blow it damaging the building but it does enough you can move a infantry squad inside.  IF you have engineer units and your the defender to get 2d6 hull down positions for vehicles and 1 wire obsticle 10 hexs long, that would stop ground vehicles. 

[Weirdo]

problem being most combat engineering task take longer then battletech turns allow.  Digging hasty position for a tank still takes something like 5-10 minutes, to push the dirt and going by my FM, a berm of unpacked earth needs to be at a minimum 4 feet thick to stop a HE tank round.    digging a proper two tier postion takes even longer.

Yeah, the extremely short/sharp nature of Battletech combat makes it very difficult to portray actions that are essential in modern warfare, but may take minutes or tens of minutes to perform.

Conversely, some things do take place a lot faster in Battletech than in real life. As I recall, it only takes an engineering platoon three turns(more if directly shot at) to dig out field works suitable for both infantry and tanks. Thirty seconds? I suspect the use of REALLY good cratering charges. :)

Also, in my head at least, part of the reason infantry can move through almost any building wall with no slowdown at all involves a very liberal use of breaching charges.

[Kovax]

I used an engineering vehicle in one situation to clear a traversable path through a heavily wooded band across the map for the two hover lances of my vehicle company.  The rest of the tracked lance (which the Engineering vehicle was assigned to) was able to pick their way carefully through via light woods hexes, so the more vulnerable Engineers didn't run into any rude surprises on the other end.  Never take any kind of "exit other end of map" mission without the proper tools to reach that other end.

In several games, I've used FS, Hermes II, or Vulcan incendiary 'Mechs to introduce some extreme temperature variations in wooded parts of the map where enemy units were sheltering.  Unfortunately, the smoke tended to temporarily make the cover even more effective, at least until a turn or two after the fires burned out.  I find Flamers and Infernos especially useful in 3025 play where adding 2-6 extra heat to a 'Mech with 10 heat sinks tends to do bad things to them....like Archers, Crusaders, Riflemen, and other units that typically run hot already, and carry lots of nasty explosive ammo.

More choices in terms of engineering tools, mobile bridging units, and more flexible APC/IFV designs would be very welcome.