Register Register

Author Topic: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight  (Read 24373 times)

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10448
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #30 on: 13 December 2015, 21:35:41 »
There aren't many battlefields where a Black Knight and a 'Mech with reflective armor will be the only units fighting, so I think we can probably label that a convenient bonus on a crowded battlefield.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 33742
  • Divided States of SMASH
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #31 on: 13 December 2015, 21:39:40 »
The Black Knight is interesting in that it's managed to stay fundamentally the same in every era despite doing a good job staying up with technology.  Unless you've got a mech with reflective armor, a clash with a Knight is going to hurt.

What's fun about the Knight is that if you run across a reflective opponent, the sheer number of guns you carry means that you can make a credible go at laser-spamming anyway, and hoping for Golden-BB hits.

On another tack, what about a Black Knight-5H/Shiro-1V fight? They're both signature heavy mechs for their nations at this time, and seem well-suited to fight each other. The Shiro is loaded with the cluster weapons needed to bring down the Black Knight's shield, while the Knight has the heavy weapons needed to eventually punch through the Shiro's heavy shell. I think the Black Knight has the edge, but think it would be a close and brutal fight.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6966
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #32 on: 13 December 2015, 21:55:55 »
What I love about the Black Knight is it's simplicity. 

The Red Reaper is a scary machine, perfect for someone who's is the Jason Vorhees of the BTU.   
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10448
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #33 on: 13 December 2015, 21:58:13 »
What's fun about the Knight is that if you run across a reflective opponent, the sheer number of guns you carry means that you can make a credible go at laser-spamming anyway, and hoping for Golden-BB hits.

On another tack, what about a Black Knight-5H/Shiro-1V fight? They're both signature heavy mechs for their nations at this time, and seem well-suited to fight each other. The Shiro is loaded with the cluster weapons needed to bring down the Black Knight's shield, while the Knight has the heavy weapons needed to eventually punch through the Shiro's heavy shell. I think the Black Knight has the edge, but think it would be a close and brutal fight.

See my comments about shields against cluster weapons earlier in the thread.  Shields in that situation aren't for face-tanking damage at the start of a fight, they're for deploying once the holes are starting to open up, and eating eight or nine or ten crits that you could otherwise take.  Mediums are especially useful for that, since they've got enough DA to handle a few hits, and a high enough DC to stop LRM clusters cold regardless of size.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #34 on: 13 December 2015, 22:04:38 »
What's fun about the Knight is that if you run across a reflective opponent, the sheer number of guns you carry means that you can make a credible go at laser-spamming anyway, and hoping for Golden-BB hits.

On another tack, what about a Black Knight-5H/Shiro-1V fight? They're both signature heavy mechs for their nations at this time, and seem well-suited to fight each other. The Shiro is loaded with the cluster weapons needed to bring down the Black Knight's shield, while the Knight has the heavy weapons needed to eventually punch through the Shiro's heavy shell. I think the Black Knight has the edge, but think it would be a close and brutal fight.

I don't think the Shiro has the firepower to think about glorious one on one combat against something of the new Black Knight's caliber.  It's designed to simply be a zombie... which it does almost TOO well.  I've had a couple megamek games where my Shiro had the pilot die before the mech was knocked out.

GreekFire

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2157
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #35 on: 13 December 2015, 22:07:20 »
See my comments about shields against cluster weapons earlier in the thread.  Shields in that situation aren't for face-tanking damage at the start of a fight, they're for deploying once the holes are starting to open up, and eating eight or nine or ten crits that you could otherwise take.  Mediums are especially useful for that, since they've got enough DA to handle a few hits, and a high enough DC to stop LRM clusters cold regardless of size.

Or for the Black Knight vs Shiro match-up, the Knight could simply wade in without ever using the Shield and still expect to come out on top.
The Shiro's damage output and ammo endurance are both way too low for it to be able to compete in a straight-up one on one fight.

I'd give the fight to the Knight 10/10 times.
Looking for a write-up on your favorite 'Mech? Check this out: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=174.0
Want to know which 'Mechs haven't been covered? Take a look at this: http://pastebin.com/9LNAMhFC
Interested in requesting or writing a 'Mech of the Week article? Come join us over here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55619.0

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10448
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #36 on: 13 December 2015, 22:11:20 »
I'd give it 9/10, if only because the Shiro is occasionally able to get in a couple heat hits or a lucky TAC. :P
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1707
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #37 on: 14 December 2015, 10:10:35 »
Well, it's faster.
That sword will eventually hit the head or something else vital.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Fallen_Raven

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3588
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #38 on: 14 December 2015, 11:00:32 »
Well, it's faster.
That sword will eventually hit the head or something else vital.

Yeah, but the PPC has just as much chance of getting a head hit. I'm pretty sure that the head capping weapon favors the Black Knight on the long odds hits.
Subtlety is for those who lack a bigger gun.

The Battletech Forums: The best friends you'll ever fire high-powered weaponry at.-JadeHellbringer


UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1707
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #39 on: 14 December 2015, 11:09:36 »
Oh, that's certainly true.
The key is having multiple, as the Shiro will survive the first one.
And possibly the second one, too.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10448
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #40 on: 14 December 2015, 11:46:27 »
The Black Knight will probably survive the first one, too.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4571
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #41 on: 14 December 2015, 12:56:40 »
First I have to ask. Did I miss some errata someplace? TacOps states the DA for a medium shield is 5, and its DC is 18, but the RS for the 5H shows 4 and 17.

Barring that..if its 5, then the medium shield is going to be surprisingly effective against the Shiro's LRMs. It will absorb all of the damage from impacts against the protected hit locations, and while each one will reduce the DC, you're still having to chew through the shield without doing any damage. The good news is that each LRM10 can possibly do 2 hits, so you don't have to chew through half your ammo to get rid of the shield.

You can try to dance at range with the LB2-X as well. You've got the ammo the speed to do so, but since its an IS LB-2X (Why they didn't go with a Clantech LB-2X, I don't know. What, would it have been too munchy?), you only have 2 hexes before the Black Knight starts replying with its Clantech ERLLs. Those Clantech ERLLs that are tied to a targeting computer (true, one of them will take a penalty for being on an arm with a shield, but that can be partially negated).

I think it will be an interesting fight, but I think the Shiro is 400 BV under the Black Knight for a reason.

nckestrel

  • Scientia Bellator
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8740
  • Painted by Mastergunz
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #42 on: 14 December 2015, 12:59:52 »
The missing hand actuator reduces the DC and DA by 1.
Master Unit List - List of all canon units, faction availabilities, Alpha Strike unit cards, Battle Values
Combat Manual Lite series - Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots.

Fragger

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 251
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #43 on: 14 December 2015, 16:31:35 »
The missing hand actuator reduces the DC and DA by 1.

Which is sad because you are still paying the full bv for it.

Deadborder

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7025
  • Technical Victory!
    • Elmer Studios Blog
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #44 on: 14 December 2015, 19:42:14 »
Time to comment after making the pedantic notes near the start...

The Black Knight is one of my top favorite 'Mechs full stop. It's pretty amazing how over it's long life, it's remained conceptually the same thing; a heavy zombie based entirely on laser spam. Though personally I like the looks of the MW4/MWDA/TRO3145 version infinitely more then the orignal.

Author of BattleCorps stories Grand Theft Agro and Zero Signal



Whenever you use terms like 'fiat' or 'stupid pills', you render your argument invalid

How to Draw MegaMek Icons the Deadborder Way

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #45 on: 15 December 2015, 00:33:59 »
Was there never a canon C3i-equipped variant for ComStar/WoBbie use?  I made such a custom for my own games years ago, but I didn't see a canon version listed in the OP.

Mine went something like:
ER PPC in right arm
large lasers in chest remain same
all medium lasers and small laser upgraded to ERs
C3i in CT
18 DHS
don't recall exact armour layout but I think it was 216 points...


cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #46 on: 16 December 2015, 11:33:39 »
I seem to remember a variant called the "White Knight" from many years back.  Similar to the Royal version, but had a 5/8 movement profile, would've needed a 375XL engine to manage that.  Where did this originate?  Battletechnology?  Mechforce UK?  Some other source?

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

GreekFire

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2157
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #47 on: 16 December 2015, 12:08:20 »
I seem to remember a variant called the "White Knight" from many years back.  Similar to the Royal version, but had a 5/8 movement profile, would've needed a 375XL engine to manage that.  Where did this originate?  Battletechnology?  Mechforce UK?  Some other source?

cheers,

Gabe

Don't quote me on this, but I *think* it was from the 3063 fanTRO.
Looking for a write-up on your favorite 'Mech? Check this out: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=174.0
Want to know which 'Mechs haven't been covered? Take a look at this: http://pastebin.com/9LNAMhFC
Interested in requesting or writing a 'Mech of the Week article? Come join us over here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55619.0

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17675
  • Dang it!
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #48 on: 19 December 2015, 08:59:49 »
I've used the Black Knight in both in late Succession Wars era (a lemon mech since thing not really suppose to exist at all, but retrocon..) and regular campaigns.   It's powerful and reliable unit, giving misery to anyone who it encounters.   I do have sore point that balance things out, that it wasn't to show up again until the Clan era.  It took it and other 2750 mechs mystique of being rare and powerful units away from them.

The MechWarrior 4 handless model which became the new 5H version and it's sister related variants) are pretty ubber machines, their shield reflecting some of the in coming fire.  I have slight person distaste for them due to a force variant with no hands because of limitation of the video game.  Its still but what can i say?

The Red Reaper one is much nicer take on the 5H version visually, and it's nasty one-off.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1644
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #49 on: 19 December 2015, 09:57:00 »
Don't quote me on this, but I *think* it was from the 3063 fanTRO.

How long ago was that?  I'm remembering this thing from the late '90s/early 2000s.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

DarkISI

  • Praedonum Dominus
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
    • My Author Website
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #50 on: 20 December 2015, 05:27:39 »
The Red Reaper one is much nicer take on the 5H version visually, and it's nasty one-off.

Interesting tidbit there: Most Wanted was written before 3145. They artwork was commissioned with the old Black Knight in mind and the words
Quote
<<<Insert Black Knight Art from TRO3050U. Remove all arm weapons, add a big colorful sword to the left arm and a big colorful shield to the right. Add 3 more weapon holes to the right torso, remove the ones on the left and add a big PPC nozzle with something around it that looks a capacitor. Remove head weapon.>>>
Then Most Wanted was delayed and the artwork for TRO 3145 came in. The new artwork fit the bill a lot better than the old one and Matt Plog decided to base it on that one.
Which leads to the strange situation where the Red Reaper in universe is older than the 5H version which means the looks of the 5H version are, in universe, based on the Red Reaper. Out of universe, it is the other way around ;)
German novelist and part time Battletech writer.



"if they didn't want to be stomped to death by a psychotic gang of battlemechs, they shouldn't have fallen down" - Liam's Ghost

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6966
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #51 on: 20 December 2015, 15:42:08 »
Interesting tidbit there: Most Wanted was written before 3145. They artwork was commissioned with the old Black Knight in mind and the words Then Most Wanted was delayed and the artwork for TRO 3145 came in. The new artwork fit the bill a lot better than the old one and Matt Plog decided to base it on that one.
Which leads to the strange situation where the Red Reaper in universe is older than the 5H version which means the looks of the 5H version are, in universe, based on the Red Reaper. Out of universe, it is the other way around ;)
It actually looks like a bridge between the classic trooper and the dark age heavy-assault. 
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #52 on: 22 December 2015, 15:17:37 »
I wondered why the shield was placed on the right arm, aesthetically and actual item, on the Black Knight?
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

DarkISI

  • Praedonum Dominus
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
    • My Author Website
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #53 on: 22 December 2015, 17:21:34 »
For the Red Reaper mostly because I didn't care and that was the way they went in. Didn't put any thought into it. As it stands, you can assume that Reginald VanJaster is left handed.
For the 5H version of the 'Mech ... no idea. I didn't design it.
German novelist and part time Battletech writer.



"if they didn't want to be stomped to death by a psychotic gang of battlemechs, they shouldn't have fallen down" - Liam's Ghost

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #54 on: 23 December 2015, 03:10:43 »
For the Red Reaper mostly because I didn't care and that was the way they went in. Didn't put any thought into it. As it stands, you can assume that Reginald VanJaster is left handed.
For the 5H version of the 'Mech ... no idea. I didn't design it.
I meant in that this shield placement is more or less present in all artworks of black knight and her variants.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

DarkISI

  • Praedonum Dominus
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5824
    • My Author Website
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #55 on: 23 December 2015, 07:23:00 »
I really can't see any shield in the old artwork. Only the two new ones have very distinct (albeit very different) shields. And to be honest, it is pure coincidence that they are on the same arm. We didn't talk to each other when we designed them and they were designed with about a year between them.
German novelist and part time Battletech writer.



"if they didn't want to be stomped to death by a psychotic gang of battlemechs, they shouldn't have fallen down" - Liam's Ghost

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2905
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #56 on: 23 December 2015, 12:57:37 »
I really can't see any shield in the old artwork. Only the two new ones have very distinct (albeit very different) shields. And to be honest, it is pure coincidence that they are on the same arm. We didn't talk to each other when we designed them and they were designed with about a year between them.
Ah my bad, I'm looking at the old art, it look like it's an extended mounting for the weapon than a faux shield.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

Sjhernan3060

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #57 on: 05 November 2017, 14:26:26 »
I always wished the Goliath Scorpions had made a Black Knight IIC since it is a mech with history for them and its weapons load would fit their preference.

With that said, I love the Black Knights more than I probably should.  I will often gladly include one in a Clan secondline force and that was before we got the -6b.  Heck, I used one as a Warden Wolf with protos and BA in a MO city battle.

I wanted one for my mercs, which they eventually got the Clanbuster in the Chaos March but I prefer the SFE versions.  The -12 is actually about my ideal . . . unfortunately that Black Knight has not taken enough damage to warrant a rebuild that might get back to a more traditional engine.  Heck, I still have not got rid of the hatchet

on the Clanbuster.

For looks . . . yeah, the old one is nice enough but the MW4 and its TW art appeal . . . except it lacks hands, though I heard some handwaving mumbo jumbo.

I honestly would like to see one with a Plasma Rifle . . . sure its a ammo weapon.  But nothing explodes still.

I have always loved this mech but hated the look. Using the new DA inspired one for my blood guard keshik

Giovanni Blasini

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3957
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #58 on: 05 November 2017, 16:49:42 »
Missed this when first posted, probably since I was on my honeymoon, I think.

Always been a big fan of the original Black Knight, as well as the SW downgrades. Amusingly, prior to the Nuking of Niops, this was one of only two designs expressly named as being produced by the Niops Association.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Deadborder

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7025
  • Technical Victory!
    • Elmer Studios Blog
Re: Mech of the Week - The Black Knight
« Reply #59 on: 05 November 2017, 18:08:30 »
Missed this when first posted, probably since I was on my honeymoon, I think.

Always been a big fan of the original Black Knight, as well as the SW downgrades. Amusingly, prior to the Nuking of Niops, this was one of only two designs expressly named as being produced by the Niops Association.

Do you have a source for that? Not doubting you, more of surprised and all. I didn't think Niops produced any 'Mechs
Author of BattleCorps stories Grand Theft Agro and Zero Signal



Whenever you use terms like 'fiat' or 'stupid pills', you render your argument invalid

How to Draw MegaMek Icons the Deadborder Way