Author Topic: “Save” the Jags (Read 155656 times)

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #60 on:** 21 December 2016, 16:20:09 »

It does flot my boat to wish! As I envision it as basically a smash and grab ( smash the serpents) and (grab) as much Jags and Jag resources as possible. I doubt that 3060 Spirits could have held Huntress so in my mind they would then go back to York and plot as they did but with more toys and tech than they had in canon

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #61 on:** 21 December 2016, 16:34:55 »

Quote from: Takiro on 15 January 2016, 19:08:50

No.

Alternate idea for you instead of flipping out and wasting their strength in the Burrock Absorption the Spirits pounce a year later on the Jags.

Whoa - Did I just forget something major I had always thought the Absorption War was AFTER the Jags fell...

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #62 on:** 21 December 2016, 16:39:01 »

Quote from: Sjhernan3060 on 21 December 2016, 16:34:55

Whoa - Did I just forget something major I had always thought the Absorption War was AFTER the Jags fell...

Yup, 3059 for the Absorption, 3060 for Serpent. Thus:

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 21 December 2016, 15:02:54

The Blood Spirits? The clan that got chewed up by jumping into a Trial of Absorption the previous year?

Maelwys · « **Reply #63 on:** 21 December 2016, 16:57:55 »

With the faux-Royal Black Watch running around Huntress, that could give the Blood Spirits plenty of reason to drop some troops onto the planet to hunt down the pretenders.

Doesn't even have to a Clan-wide thing. The Schmitt Bloodhouse could petition to send Trueborns of that bloodline to Huntress to hunt down the faux-Royal Black Watch. It wouldn't be too overwhelming for the IS forces, since it wouldn't be full, long established units.

Could be a fun RPG bit.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #64 on:** 21 December 2016, 19:54:51 »

I like it!

So using the same mech and naval forces: 7 galaxies and their full navy the spirits could have rolled over serpent absorbed the jags and held huntress!?

In my story I will have kariana Schmitt defeat osis and demand the chance to absorb

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #65 on:** 22 December 2016, 09:08:59 »

A Trial of Absorption is a matter decided on by the Grand Council, not two Khans, and requires a unanimous vote.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #66 on:** 22 December 2016, 10:24:11 »

Thanks Kit for the reminder - The GC held alot more sway in that era. So storyline wise the Spirits would have to ask for and be granted the right to absorb the jags.

Remember in my version the Spirits DID NOT, jump into the Burrock absorption. So the Spirits would make the motion to absorb, defeat any refusal from Osis and then bid for the right?

Considering that the other clans new next to nothing about their Toumans actual size - I would think the Spirits could do this the Legal and proper way.

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #67 on:** 22 December 2016, 11:31:29 »

They'd have to make that proposal, against the clan from which the ilKhan was elected, get all the other Khans aside from the two Smoke Jaguar Khans to vote for Absorption and then convince a plurality of the Grand Council to assign the trail to them.

There's no bidding involved, another reason that the politically connected Adders were able to Absorb the Burrocks despite the enmity between that clan and the Blood Spirits. It seems a great stretch that the Spirits would suddenly become so gregarious given their nature. Then there is the case of possible trials of refusal against the clan that would be doing the Absorbing which could go on for years like that of the Widowmakers.

Keep in mind this isn't a "I want all your stuff" trial but rather the Clans have found the clan to be behaving in a manner that is unClanlike and that Clan deserves to be wiped out but its lower ranks are salvageable. The three times prior the War of Reaving the Burrocks were working with exiled members of the Clans, the Widowmakers massacred their merchants and the Mongeese had repeatedly used political maneuvering to buy respite for their failures on the battlefield. The other Clans aren't going to want to set their own Clans up for Absorption in the future for lesser reasons. Additionally, the Blood Spirits can't just attack Huntress, they need to be attacking all of the Jaguars' holdings; letting the Inner Sphere do most of their work for them would be setting themselves up for Absorption in the near future.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #68 on:** 22 December 2016, 11:52:54 »

Curse your well reasoned logic...

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #69 on:** 22 December 2016, 13:23:15 »

I am also the Crusher of Dreams. Especially to Targe fans.

Gaiiten · « **Reply #70 on:** 22 December 2016, 13:27:14 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 22 December 2016, 13:23:15

I am also the Crusher of Dreams. Especially to Targe fans.

And this to 100% ... ;)

Colt Ward · « **Reply #71 on:** 22 December 2016, 18:31:59 »

Quote from: Kit deSummersville on 22 December 2016, 09:08:59

A Trial of Absorption is a matter decided on by the Grand Council, not two Khans, and requires a unanimous vote.

Well . . . IIRC the Horses and Coyotes together crushed and absorbed a Kindraa for their actions, so it would be interesting to see a Clan declare they are 'absorbing' the Jaguars on say Tranquil. Not the whole Clan but the piece of the Clan on holdings they want.

Takiro · « **Reply #72 on:** 23 December 2016, 06:37:10 »

Actually Kit, I would have to disagree with you.

The Jaguar 'Annihilation' by the Star League would be the second unsanctioned (by the Grand Council anyway) destruction of a Clan. The precedent was established by the Jade Falcons during the Refusal War when they 'Absorbed' the Wolves which was accepted by the Clans despite the lack of Council action. A savvy Blood Spirit actor would realize this especially when they talked their Khan or Loremaster out of an ill considered Absorption War with the Burrocks and Star Adders.

Justification for such a de facto Absorption by the Spirits is simple - the Jaguars continued failure and their attempts to hide the truth from the Clans at large. A far larger Spirit Clan could conduct the operation and easily explain themselves afterwards. Don't forget the Spirits while bitter in the extreme at the rest of the Clans do have allies (Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and to a lesser extent Diamond Shark) who could back such a stance. The remaining Jaguars might get behind such a move as well throwing Osis under the bus as the ultimate scapegoat.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #73 on:** 23 December 2016, 08:03:57 »

Story line wise that's how I would write it. Osis defeated and ousted and the much cooler brandon Howell leading a new " reasonable" jags as part of another clan

Kit deSummersville · « **Reply #74 on:** 23 December 2016, 08:53:06 »

Well, you could make such an approach but when would this trial be declared?

When the Jaguars had been ejected from the Inner Sphere? That seems a bit premature given the failure of the Diamond Sharks in the Inner Sphere previously as well as the still potent Touman that the Jaguars appeared to have, the troops recalled from the Inner Sphere plus the garrison forces that the rest of the Clans believed they had on Huntress.

Once Task Force Serpent was revealed? At that point Huntress has been taken. The Spirits could Absorb the retreating troops that were headed to Huntress, but what would be left of that once they had defeated them? Assuming that the Spirits were able to whip up the Trial of Absorption during the Grand Council that refused to give aid to the Jaguars how do they even get through any following trials and assemble a force quickly enough? Huntress was taken on the 12th of March and the Jaguars attempted to liberate it on the 19th.

Takiro · « **Reply #75 on:** 23 December 2016, 16:36:57 »

The first alternate event in this line would occur in 3059 during the Burrock Absorption. I would have a created character (possibly older and more wise) from Clan Blood Spirit challenge Loremaster Bayle Campbell after hearing his counsel to ignore the will of the Grand Council and participate in the Burrock Absorption. After defeating him in combat this person would urge the Khans to abide by the Council's ruling but await the proper time to strike. Realizing this righteous task would take allies this new Loremaster would urge his Clan to end their isolation and approach a few respected Clans with offers of friendship. This would include Diamond Shark, Fire Mandrill, Snow Raven, and a few more like Ghost Bear or Steel Viper.

Now this changes things as the Burrock Absorption likely goes far smoother for the Star Adders with even stronger material gains. This could lend weight to the Blood Spirit efforts to accumulate allies among the Homeworld Clans attempting to balance out their power.

The Jaguars failure goes deeper than just their ejection from the InnerSphere. Operation Revival was their baby and it is blowing up in the Clans faces in 3060. The 'fear' caused by the discovery of the Clan Homeworlds was used by Leo Showers masterfully to get him elected ilKhan and start the invasion during which they faced several reversals (Wolcott, Luthien, Tukayyid) as well numerous questionable incidents (Edo, the escape of Hohiro and the bombardment of that planet).

ilKhan Osis was elected to restart the invasion and to that purpose he ordered an accounting of Clan strength (FM Crusader and Warden Clans). He failed notify anyone that the InnerSphere had launched a coordinated attack against his Occupation Zone and hid the disaster till he asked for help in the Grand Council (NEED THE DATE). Immediately after that meeting (I have to research the date) I would get the Blood Spirits rolling.

They don't like or need the Grand Council to authorize anything and most telling they hate the InnerSphere even more. News of the attack on Huntress would send them over the edge that these barbarians are in Kerensky's Homeworlds. Call them Trials of Possession for the purpose of ousting of any InnerSphere force from the Clan space. Now this puts the Spirits to war with the Jags (perhaps like the Burrocks fought the Adders during their Absorption) and the InnerSphere. A tall order yes but a winnable affair.

After which you show up at the Grand Council to justify your actions and cite the Refusal War as precedent with a reborn Jaguar Clan as your new ally.

SteveRestless · « **Reply #76 on:** 23 December 2016, 19:30:00 »

I mean, What's to stop a properly equipped clan from launching enough Trials of Possession one after another after another after another, until so many warriors are bondsmen, and so much of the clan's machinery, munitions, manufacturing and means of reproduction are in their hands that the target clan may as well be absorbed?

Difficult for the Blood Spirits to do to the Smoke Jaguars, for example... but if say the Jaguars angered the Ghost Bears into one of their berserker rages, and the Bears decided it was time for RIP AND TEAR.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #77 on:** 23 December 2016, 20:24:42 »

If a clan had agreed to help the jags per osiss request could they have demanded osis resignation as the price?

SteveRestless · « **Reply #78 on:** 24 December 2016, 11:52:07 »

Well, speaking entirely literally, you could name whatever terms for your assistance that you would like. You could demand his resignation, a dozen donuts and a strip-tease... the question is, how far could you push him before he would decide that your assistance was not worth the price.

I would think that most clans that would name that as a price, however, would prefer to see the Jaguars fall than save them.

as a Wolf, I think my price would be something along the lines of "Their Dire Wolf manufacturing line, all Jaguar rights to the design, joint rights and schematics for the Mist Lynx and Warhawk, 45% of Huntress (which I would then trade two thirds of to the Coyotes and Scorpions) the Jaguar Khan and saKhan's votes towards my ilKhanship, and a heartfelt artistic tribute to the nobility of the wolf performed before the grand council." but I would mostly be offering to see if I could make Osis have an aneurysm right then and there.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #79 on:** 24 December 2016, 11:56:21 »

Lol well said wolf!

But in keeping with the spirits huge secret power play couldn't they simply say " thanks for info ilkhan we will go investigate in force"

And then drop in with the intention of clsiming all that they could?

That could be the start and if the opportunity presented itself work out a quasi absorption with the more reasonable jags?

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #80 on:** 24 December 2016, 12:03:46 »

In this story line the spirits are looking for a way to srike at the adders having the jags ( long time enemies of the adders) would be a great way to meld their two cultures against a common foe

SteveRestless · « **Reply #81 on:** 24 December 2016, 12:10:56 »

Hm.

If one were to engage in an Elias Crichell-esque level of Clan Rules Lawyering, You could make an argument that a Trial of Annihilation is also a defacto Trial of Possession for the annihilated clan's assets. So, Territory and Material taken by the annihilators would then be fair game for you to trial for.

Now, were it a proper ToA, you would likely face repercussions in council for dropping in and interrupting the ToA by ToPosession-ing those newly claimed assets. But since we are not talking about a real clan doing the Annihilating, no one is going to complain on behalf of the spheroids. And the Jaguars might rankle at you taking some of their territory and former possessions, but if they had the strength to DO anything about it, they would not have been in those dire straits to begin with.

Basically, you could do what the wolves do ninety years later on Tharkad. To thwart the Falcons, they show up and declares their own trial for half the planet. They're not exactly doing it to help the lyrans, they're not friendly with them in the process, but they see the opportunity to tweak their beak, and thwart their plan to take Tharkad. Then, in this case, they just walk out on the holdings they won there.

The spirits could do the same without agreeing to anything in particular or directly allying with the Jaguars, just treating it as a target of opportunity. Drop in on Task Force Serpent, wrest control of territory and assets from them (and if the Jaguars happen to start fighting them at the same time, well, sucks to be a spheroid) and then keep what they take. It's not like the Jaguars are going to have the strength or political credibility to demand it back.

and, as you just added, I do think there is something to be said for "the enemy of my enemy"

Maelwys · « **Reply #82 on:** 24 December 2016, 14:49:23 »

What I always found funny about the Jaguar Annihilation is that in the same breath that people are saying "This is an internal Smoke Jaguar matter because the SLDF has only attacked the Smoke Jaguars," they're also saying "The Nova Cats aren't traitors, because they were attacked by the SLDF."

edit
So you can use that disconnect, IMO, to justify just about anything. And also keep in mind that the council doesn't have say really over what one Clan does. Even if the Clan Council decides not to act in concert with the Smoke Jaguars, if Clan A says "Yeah, we're going to do something on our own," there's not much the others can do, except political pressure really.
/edit

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #83 on:** 24 December 2016, 17:08:24 »

The Nova Cats were traitors and fools that's a given I hate to say it but it's true

It's a shame the Cats couldn't have taken the OZ themselves left Huntress to the SLDF

then you'd have a Nova Cat OZ friendly to the IS but also have them part of Clan society playing both sides against the middle could have been fun

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #84 on:** 27 December 2016, 11:52:50 »

Ok so I have found some of my Twilight of the Clans materials and here is what I am thinking, keep in mind the following conditions:
•   The Spirits did not interfere in the Burrock absorption and so have a much larger touman ( and bigger fleet) than would be suspected and have been seeking a way to use it for maximum gain
•   This is right when Osis announces Huntress is under attack at the Council

Plan A)
•   The Spirit Khans declare that Osis is unfit to lead the Clans
o   In a fit of rage Osis trips and bashes his head in killing himself – I am kidding about that but please remind me how that would work?
The Spirit Khans would have to fight him and Osis would be able to choose the manner of combat?
o   Either way in my timeline Osis is removed as Ilkhan
o   Setting up a power vacuum and a need for a new Ilkhan in the face of the IS Invasion
•   The Spirit Khans THEN declare the new SLDF a blight on their honor, ancestors etc etc ( as their founder was a descendant from the leader of the Royal Black Watch) and declare they will destroy them themselves and rid the HOMEWORLDS of them and then with a dramatic swoosh of their red cloaks they exist the chamber hall.
o   The remaining clans then bicker among themselves RE: the open Ilkhan post the Jag OZ etc.
•   The Spirits promptly mobilize their fleet, the Blood Guard Keshik, Alpha and Beta Galaxy and move to the Huntress system.
o   This is a smash and grab operation ( to Smash the SLDF and to grab Jag stuff)
o   The Spirit fleet will attempt to get there before the 2nd naval battle of Huntress happens
o   When they arrive they declare on an open channel broadcast their intention to crush the invaders
   In this scenario I think it’s a pretty good chance the jag fleet would actually fight their “ saviors” – Thoughts?
   The Spirits will attempt to cripple and capture the Invincible Truth and parlay with the remaining jag vessels. Personally I just want to add the Liberator to my expanding Spirit fleet but that would be tricky in this scenario.
   Again suggestions welcome:
•   If the Spirits communicate that Osis is dead and the only chance the Jags have to survive this fight and get revenge on the IS is with the spirits would the Jag vessels join forces/stand aside?
o   The Spirits then land ground forces across huntress in a similar way to how they did in the Absorption War but again relaying the message that “ Osis is dead, revenge can only come through us” trapped between the Jags and the Spirits with no fleet support how did you all see those battles going?
o   Frankly I think the Spirits would have a hard – much harder time of it than they expect. Reminder they would be coming out of years and years of isolation with next to no experience with large actions like this so I would expect a high causality rate at first when they fight cornered IS troops with little coordination with the Jags.
o   Once they wipe out Serpent they then trial for possession of the surviving Jag units through one on one combat with unit commanders, strip out as much as possible from the planet then hightail it out of there !
•   Plan B would involve high-level coordination with a cool jag like Brandon Howell details to follow.

Takiro · « **Reply #85 on:** 27 December 2016, 13:49:06 »

Some cold water -

The Blood Spirits don't have a big fleet, they traded most warships to the Snow Ravens in exchange for Mechs. Big ground arm small naval arm as a result. Only 6 warships.

Now some warm -

Solution is to enlist Raven support as part of the operation.

Interesting note - Howell is a Snow Raven bloodname and quite possibly a good one up till the Diamond Shark incident that is. Would they want it back?? Circe and other territories could help buy them off.

Here is one of my more fun ideas concerning Fire Mandrill involvement. The Spirits even supported the Wolverines cause they did not want to see a fellow Clan destroyed. Plus the Clans hate waste so how is this for an alternate event? The creation of three new Clans!

With a Smoke Jaguar absorption you have the legacies of two Clans available (them and Mongoose) together with Nova Cat. Something has to be done with them. Absorbing their bloodnames would allow the Fire Mandrills to finally do what they have been trying to do for years, separate. You jumble up the bloodlines so the four most powerful Kindraa (Sainze, Payne, Faraday-Tanaga, and Mattila-Carrol) form the core of new Clans.

Now one would remain Fire Mandrill likely Payne while Sainze would try to create some neo-samurai Dragon Clan leaving Faraday Tanaga and Mattila Carrol at the core of two others. The precedent is there with Jade Wolf for their creation and would create three new allies for Blood Spirit and Snow Raven to foster. You'd have a six Clan block (12 votes) in the Grand Council all of a sudden.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #86 on:** 27 December 2016, 15:43:05 »

Interesting ideas! But first the spirits would need to win in space and in the ground. How do you think they would do against serpent?

Takiro · « **Reply #87 on:** 28 December 2016, 09:46:14 »

Serpent probably wouldn't stand much of a chance against them if we are talking about the kind of force amassed by three Clans for a de facto Absorption. I see the Ravens committing only naval support to the operation which is contracted but the Fire Mandrills could be conducting Trials of Possession on Huntress for the bloodrights by the time Taskforce Serpent shows up.

Faced with such a force and perhaps even the knowledge that the Jaguars are being absorbed by the Clans maybe Victor withdraws or could play the hegira card. Given the Spirit attitude about the InnerSphere I doubt that would happen which could lead them into a desperate last stand on Huntress or Strana Mechty.

Oh and just one more justification on this cause we are talking about a three Clan operation. The Jaguars always took what they needed from other Clans and I get the idea they were bullies. Funny to see what happens when they are on the weak side.

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #88 on:** 28 December 2016, 11:08:19 »

Oh and just one more justification on this cause we are talking about a three Clan operation. The Jaguars always took what they needed from other Clans and I get the idea they were bullies. Funny to see what happens when they are on the weak side.
[/quote]

Yep

Sjhernan3060 · « **Reply #89 on:** 28 December 2016, 11:21:44 »

Alas I only have the resources to run a Sprit/Jag and IS campaign.

Now Plan B as mentioned would involve the Spirits coordinating with SaKhan Brandon Howell and Hang Metha. By working together the Spirits could roll Serpant much faster and then offer to absorb the survivors. After defeating Serpent - then the spirits could go back to the Grand Council to retroactively get it approved and then have access to Jag blood lines enclaves etc.

In this scenario the Jags could still hold their heads up high as they fought and fought and so their blood lines still show promise and should be preserved.

The Spirits would then have instant access to the Protomech designs and the design teams who built them. They could then trade this info to their allies for additional resources etc down the road.

( Does this mean they would then be infecting themselves with the Society? I would think so)

Ideally in my scenario Kariann Schmitt dies doing what she does best (leading a berserk charge) against the last Serpent holdouts and the a more level head leader say:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Troy_Boques

pared with Brandon Howell as SaKhan for more on him read:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brandon_Howell

Two farsighted – non ego driven nut jobs, would really help the Spirits consolidate their gains and plot a course for survival and dare I say it success in the future?