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Author Topic: “Save” the Jags  (Read 35341 times)

Crimson Dynamo

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #390 on: 10 October 2019, 22:02:38 »
Besides the two galaxies on huntress, which had been noted as paper tigers, did the jags have a dedicated homeworlds defense galaxy?

There was... something. Despite a line in the novels to the effect of everything the Jaguars had was at Huntress, there are a few references in some of the more recent TROs to fighting in the other Jaguar holdings that yielded up some choice salvage, for example. No units named, no idea what size though it was unlikely to amount to much.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
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"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #391 on: 11 October 2019, 06:58:50 »
There was... something. Despite a line in the novels to the effect of everything the Jaguars had was at Huntress, there are a few references in some of the more recent TROs to fighting in the other Jaguar holdings that yielded up some choice salvage, for example. No units named, no idea what size though it was unlikely to amount to much.

I expect that the jags did something similar to what the hellions did during the wars of reaving: constantly moving around troops in the homeworlds to make it appear stronger. I think the lower tier units like the huntress galaxies had constantly been mined for troops and gear.

Which again due to their pride and world view prevented them for asking for help before it was too late

Gaiiten

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #392 on: 11 October 2019, 08:32:37 »
IMHO they had only these two Galaxies, but the garrisons und of their other Homeworlds possessions (binaries or trinaries) did belong to the Huntress Galaxies.
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #393 on: 11 October 2019, 10:55:28 »
Yeah . . . garrison organization is more structural for theater command rather than frontline organization for attacks.  Rossou was the commander of all Homeworld forces IIRC, not just Huntress- or it seemed to be presented that way.  As far as specifically named bits . . . well, there were troops on Tranquil and you had some on Kirin who were guarding the Xerxes factory IIRC.

Additionally, Osis recalled all the garrison troops who would answer to Strana Mechty when he formed and led his relief force to Huntress- came out to be . . . a cluster?  two? that formed from bits & pieces.  A star here, a binary there . . .
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #394 on: 11 October 2019, 11:10:12 »
Yeah . . . garrison organization is more structural for theater command rather than frontline organization for attacks.  Rossou was the commander of all Homeworld forces IIRC, not just Huntress- or it seemed to be presented that way.  As far as specifically named bits . . . well, there were troops on Tranquil and you had some on Kirin who were guarding the Xerxes factory IIRC.

Additionally, Osis recalled all the garrison troops who would answer to Strana Mechty when he formed and led his relief force to Huntress- came out to be . . . a cluster?  two? that formed from bits & pieces.  A star here, a binary there . . .

The jaguars heart unit you mean? I thought they were almost solahma but still on the active rolls?

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #395 on: 11 October 2019, 12:53:37 »
He gathered up whatever he could . . . the Heart were dregs of the dregs, but I thought he had another cluster under his direct command- so 2 clusters dropped I thought but its been a while since I read those books . . . like over 15 years?
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #396 on: 06 November 2019, 17:09:20 »
The SLDF captured 2 warships and the Jaguar merchant fleet, keeping them parked and uncharged near Huntress with their crews aboard, until Paul Moon and Baldur enacted their plan and made off with them. See "Forever Faithful" for details.

Did the wider clans know about this? Also I thought the jags purged their merchant fleet during the golden century?

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #397 on: 06 November 2019, 18:01:07 »
Considering Scorpions pursued them . . .

And perhaps merchant fleet was the wrong word, transport would be better b/c some of the JS were from the evac of the IS and others would have been what brought Osis'  remnants to the system.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #398 on: 10 November 2019, 16:35:08 »
The thing to remember, to me, is that the Clan way dictated that the Jaguars HAD to go it alone. What the Jags saw as the Wolves (and Falcons) abandoning them to their fates, 'betraying' them, was merely the Clans practicing their rules. If you can't take on an enemy coming at you like this, you're too weak to contribute to the next generation of Kerensky's children- whether that be a warrior failing, or even an entire Clan. For the Jaguars to even admit wanting help was a massive loss of face. Had another Clan jumped in, really you'd have a situation not unlike the Burrock absorption later- in a matter between two forces, a third party interfered, a massive violation of Clan law- or at the very minimum, an admission that one side of the conflict is too weak to win without needing assistance, which might be even worse. In this case, even if Serpent is defeated, the Jaguars are doomed- someone is going to declare an Absorption or some such over their conduct, and they- and the Clan that helped them- are tainted and weak in the eyes of their comrades.

Rambling, I know, but just based on the Clan's own rules the Jags faced their fate and failed- a far better fate than succeeding through dezgra.

I wanted to go way back to this point. Recall that the diamond sharks had gone so far to assemble a relief force to save the jags. This stopped not by an argument around the legality of the action but by going after the khans heritage.

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #399 on: 10 November 2019, 19:27:23 »
Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols.  Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #400 on: 10 November 2019, 20:33:49 »
Because Ian Hawker was always sucking up to the Jags & Falcons, his Crusader fanboi idols.  Now . . . interesting question is, how did Vlad know Ian was making the effort and how did he know the navigation course so he could meet him?

Personal theory is that the cooler heads amongst the sharks who scorned hawkers zany schemes tipped the wolves off via the chatter web.

But the sharks did have the naval and ground forces to do the job. Someone(s) decided however that it was not “ best for business”

rebs

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #401 on: 11 November 2019, 03:11:40 »
The Shark Foxes had enough of Crusader shenanigans  by that point and were noticeably changing back to their Warden stance by the time of the Jaguar  annihilation.

Takiro

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #402 on: 11 November 2019, 09:39:48 »
Plus the Shark Foxes feelings for the Smoked Kitties were not tremendously friendly.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #403 on: 11 November 2019, 11:49:28 »
Plus the Shark Foxes feelings for the Smoked Kitties were not tremendously friendly.

Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #404 on: 11 November 2019, 11:57:43 »
Sure . . . right up until another Clan did like Vlad.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #405 on: 11 November 2019, 20:45:48 »
Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?
  The Clans have no legal system, save might. If you are perceived to be strong enough, as with CSJ for a very long time, you can go unchallenged. If you can defeat a challenger, that's the law. The Clans have plenty of silly rules, which is enforced more by fear and threats of harm, than by civic consciousness...

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #406 on: 11 November 2019, 22:08:54 »
In the Clans, might is right.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #407 on: 12 November 2019, 00:46:33 »
  The Clans have no legal system, save might. If you are perceived to be strong enough, as with CSJ for a very long time, you can go unchallenged. If you can defeat a challenger, that's the law. The Clans have plenty of silly rules, which is enforced more by fear and threats of harm, than by civic consciousness...

Got it. Any clan which wanted to publicly help the jags had to have both the political and military juice to make any detractors back down.

As has been stated here earlier, osis made a fatal error by coming to the grand council in the way he did, by not factoring the general disdain the jags were held in and vlad and marthes desire to see him fall...

Cutting a quite side deal with a crusader minded khan or kindraa leader would have gotten him the short term breathing room he needed.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #408 on: 12 November 2019, 01:21:28 »
It's doubtful that any single Clan could have offered enough support to save the Jaguars from the amount of force that Operation Bulldog brought down on them.  A single Kindraa definitely couldn't have.  Appealing to the entire council was Osis's last Hail Mary attempt.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #409 on: 12 November 2019, 06:54:17 »
Got it. Any clan which wanted to publicly help the jags had to have both the political and military juice to make any detractors back down.
  Indeed, such a move would have been painting a target on their own backs, an invitation to a feeding frenzy. The Clans were bred to compete with each other; Unity isn't natural to them because they are Social Darwinists.

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #410 on: 19 December 2019, 21:23:48 »
IMHO they had only these two Galaxies, but the garrisons und of their other Homeworlds possessions (binaries or trinaries) did belong to the Huntress Galaxies.

A number of times in the twilight of the clans story line, clan characters were shocked that only two galaxies defended huntress. Putting aside the appalling quality of the units was two galaxies really that small of a garrison?


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #411 on: 19 December 2019, 22:56:12 »
For a Clan's homeworld?  Absolutely.
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Colt Ward

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #412 on: 20 December 2019, 11:13:20 »
Eh . . . it was the state of those galaxies IMO.

Considering a full strength frontline cluster was considered, a few years before that period anyway, to be the combat equivalent of a average mech regiment that would make it 10-ish mech regiments.  But neither galaxy was at full strength in warriors or material- what warriors Rossou Howell DID have were dregs or those considered failures from Tukayyid (like the Elemental that auger'd in?) and his equipment had been so raided to build new clusters deployed in the OZ or just plain replacements that he was reduced to using what was left in old caches and IS isorla shipped back at the request of the scientists.  Part of why he was happy to seize the Falcon mechs when Horse's DS crashed.

My opinion is that it was two whole garrison galaxies for all of the Jaguar's home world territory, with stars and trinaries assigned out to cover various enclaves.  Remember, the Clans decided as part of Op Revival that the Invaders could not be the subject of a Trial of Possession while invading . . . and its questionable if that restriction was ever lifted since Tukayyid just resulted in a truce.  It should also tell you the state of the Jags that they had no frontline clusters in the Homeworlds to respond to any of the other Clans.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #413 on: 20 December 2019, 16:16:38 »
Eh . . . it was the state of those galaxies IMO.

Considering a full strength frontline cluster was considered, a few years before that period anyway, to be the combat equivalent of a average mech regiment that would make it 10-ish mech regiments.  But neither galaxy was at full strength in warriors or material- what warriors Rossou Howell DID have were dregs or those considered failures from Tukayyid (like the Elemental that auger'd in?) and his equipment had been so raided to build new clusters deployed in the OZ or just plain replacements that he was reduced to using what was left in old caches and IS isorla shipped back at the request of the scientists.  Part of why he was happy to seize the Falcon mechs when Horse's DS crashed.

My opinion is that it was two whole garrison galaxies for all of the Jaguar's home world territory, with stars and trinaries assigned out to cover various enclaves.  Remember, the Clans decided as part of Op Revival that the Invaders could not be the subject of a Trial of Possession while invading . . . and its questionable if that restriction was ever lifted since Tukayyid just resulted in a truce.  It should also tell you the state of the Jags that they had no frontline clusters in the Homeworlds to respond to any of the other Clans.

You bring up an interesting point re: the “ no attacks on invaders” rule when did that actually give way? FM wardens Commended a scorpion commander for getting the jump on the jaguars essentially from the moment he learned huntress was being attacked.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #414 on: 21 December 2019, 14:00:17 »
While the Orbital Bombardment was an outlier, the simple fact is that the Jaguars were noted to be among the most if not the most brutal of the remaining Clans to their lower caste.

And yes, a cluster or two might have finished off TFS, but would just die under Bulldog's guns. For that, a Galaxy or more would be needed.

  First, all of the Clans had a beef with the Jags -They were too afraid to step in when the Jags abused its lower castes, and Jag influence over the invasion was based on its status as the strongest Clan.

  Orbital bombardment is a major Clan taboo -They equate it with primitive, IS brutality. And while dropping a nuke on five divisions of entrenched infantry might be overlooked, destroying a city with unruly civilians was enough for other invading Clans to bid away the forces capable of inflicting that kind of damage.

  As far as Huntress is concerned, the Jags placed all of their eggs in the invasion basket. The fresh from the Sibko and Solamah defenders served as cannon fodder, stalling for the relief that never came, so it doesn't matter what size units they tossed into battle. CSJ was already finished as a fighting Clan before Huntress fell.
« Last Edit: 22 December 2019, 21:35:54 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #415 on: 21 December 2019, 14:44:13 »
  First, all of the Clans had a beef with the Jags -They were too afraid to step in when the Jags abused its lower castes, and Jag influence over the invasion was based on its status as the strongest Clan.

  Orbital bombardment is a major Clan taboo -They equate in with primitive, IS brutality. And while dropping a nuke on five divisions of entrenched infantry might be overlooked, destroying a city with unruly civilians was enough for other invading Clans to bid away the forces capable of inflicting that kind of damage.

  As far as Huntress is concerned, the Jags placed all of their eggs in the invasion basket. The fresh from the Sibko and Solamah defenders served as cannon fodder, stalling for the relief that never came, so it doesn't matter what size units they tossed into battle. CSJ was already finished as a fighting Clan before Huntress fell.

So if the sharks relief Force had saved the jags as hawker intended what do you think would have been his next step? Absorption?

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #416 on: 21 December 2019, 17:57:40 »
So if the sharks relief Force had saved the jags as hawker intended what do you think would have been his next step? Absorption?

Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!

Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.

This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.

I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.

Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch! 

I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.

How's that for starters?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #417 on: 21 December 2019, 21:31:34 »
Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!

Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.

This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.

I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.

Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch! 

I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.

How's that for starters?

Anything that gives Brandon Howell a push I dig! More thoughts later got some minis to paint!

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Save the Jags
« Reply #418 on: 22 December 2019, 19:56:39 »
Do we even know the size of this Crusader Shark Relief Force? I really doubt it was that big in the first place (cluster possible maybe 2?) and it is easy to imagine how word got to Vlad. Yeah I am looking at you Merchant Factor Angus Labov!

Lets say that Hawker wins the fight he has scheduled with Vlad this time and thus the Crusader Wolves are won to this Crusader Relief effort banner. Other Crusader Clans may than start to be won over on the basis of this victory with the goal of driving out the InnerSphere taint and securing the Homeworlds for all time.

This far larger relief force annihilates the forces of the false Star League and a new hero is born, long live ilKhan Ian Hawker! As a Diamond Shark and the Great Protector of the Clans there could well be motions for Absorptions and perhaps even a new Clan or two is born. I think he would announce the Clan intention to abide by the Truce of Tukayyid giving the Sharks and their Clan allies time to build up and reorder things. Perhaps other Clans are added to the Invasion but what is certain is permeant contact with the InnerSphere, no pulling back.

I would approach the Nova Cat Abjuration a bit differently than canon as well maybe giving those loyalist Crusaders (must have been a few) a chance at redemption. Personally I hate waste as do the Clans and because of his efforts to save the Clan Homeworlds and some of the Clans from themselves this could stand. Another opportunity for Absorption certainly and perhaps the dawn of some new Clans as I said before.

Here is an interesting idea - the Diamond Sharks split off their Wardens to form Clan Sea Fox so they may go their own way. They are very friendly with the Nova Cats and an Absorption followed by a split would certainly be very possible. I like that a bunch! 

I'd have Victor taken as a bondsman by the Cloud Cobras who takes a Phelan route within this Clan but the loss of so many key regiments and figures would do great damage to the Star League. Oh and Lincoln Osis would be dead here either killed in combat or stripped by Hawker for keeping secrecy and sucking but perhaps Brandon Howell would finally get a chance to lead the Jags or what is left now indebted to the Sharks.

How's that for starters?

Someone refresh my memory did hawker know how badly the jags were beaten up when he sent his force?

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: “Save” the Jags
« Reply #419 on: 22 December 2019, 21:46:51 »
Very true culturally they were polar opposites. But my question stands: so legally they could have done the rescue?
  Adhering to laws isn't a strong Clan trait. If nobody stops them, a Clan does as it's leaders command. They may back down, if confronted by another Clan, but mere legalities never stopped a Clan from taking action. Excuses and justifications are usually an afterthought.