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Author Topic: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?  (Read 13840 times)

House Davie Merc

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #30 on: 29 April 2016, 15:21:30 »
I prefer PPCs for the main weapon on less mobile units and
the large laser for more mobile units that frequently get close
to combine the main weapon with secondary weapons .


Basically -I like PPCs for use on Warhammers,Marauders, and Awesomes .
They tend to hang back and provide support fire .

I prefer the large laser for the Phoenix Hawk , Wolverine , Chameleon ,
Grasshopper, and Guillotine .
These mechs are more mobile and tend to eventually close to combine
the main weapon with other weapons .

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #31 on: 29 April 2016, 18:17:32 »
I prefer Large Lasers, however, the reality of the situation is there is only a handful of designs in 3025/3039 that effectively use them and cause a PSR.  Much easier to find designs with a couple PPCs up to that task for range and cover that 90m weak spot with Medium Lasers.  I love the Flashman and the Rifleman 4L from Techfactory.

That makes me wonder..  How many cannon designs DO sport more than just one or two larges??  And not ERs or pulse versions..

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Breetai

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #32 on: 29 April 2016, 23:14:50 »
Depends entirely on the opponent. Against Lights and Mediums the improved damage/weight ratio makes the Large Laser king, but the second you start facing off against well-armoured Heavies+, being able to reach their nougaty centres in 2 hits instead of three allows the PPC to shine as the preferred dinner-and-a-movie opener prefacing the bukkake spray of SRMs/MLs.

The Eagle

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #33 on: 30 April 2016, 21:25:22 »
That makes me wonder..  How many cannon designs DO sport more than just one or two larges??  And not ERs or pulse versions..

The first that comes to mind is the Charger-SB with four large lasers, and the Flashman-8K with three. 
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Sartris

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #34 on: 30 April 2016, 21:37:32 »
That makes me wonder..  How many cannon designs DO sport more than just one or two larges??  And not ERs or pulse versions..

Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L
Charger CGR-SB
Flashman FLS-8K
Flashman FLS-C
Ostroc OSR-3C
Schiltron C

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House Davie Merc

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #35 on: 30 April 2016, 23:19:02 »
Black Knight BL-7-KNT-L
Charger CGR-SB
Flashman FLS-8K
Flashman FLS-C
Ostroc OSR-3C
Schiltron C

The following list carry 2 for those interested .
Atlas AS7-RS
Devastator DVS-1D
Emperor EMP-5A
Crocket CRK-5003-0
Stalker STK-3F
Stalker STK-4N
Stalker STK-4P
Stalker STK-3F Jagawen ( another canon 1 of )
Awesome AWS-8T
Marauder MAD-3M
Archer ARC-2K
Rifleman RFL-3N
Rifleman RFL-4D
Ostroc OSR-2L
Ostroc OSR-2M
Ostroc OSR-2C  ( 3C has 3 large lasers ,2C has 2 ) )
Ostroc OSR-2C Michi ( canon 1 of a kind IIRC )
Ostsol OTL-4D
Blackjack BJ-1DB
Crab CRB-20
Hermes HER-4K
Lynx LNX-8Q

The size of the 2 large lasers or more per mech  list surprised me
when I looked into it . Even if you remove the one-of mechs it's surprisingly
large .
I'd have to do a more thorough check on it -but there may well be more mechs
that mount 2 or more large lasers then 2 or more PPCs .
« Last Edit: 30 April 2016, 23:21:35 by House Davie Merc »

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #36 on: 01 May 2016, 00:37:55 »
It would be interesting to see a #s comparison...
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Sartris

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #37 on: 01 May 2016, 00:50:41 »
that mount 2 or more large lasers then 2 or more PPCs .

2+ PPCs win.

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garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #38 on: 01 May 2016, 14:10:00 »
I guess we need to get to work then closing the gap! 8)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #39 on: 01 May 2016, 23:10:44 »
The following list carry 2 for those interested .
Atlas AS7-RS
Devastator DVS-1D
Emperor EMP-5A
Crocket CRK-5003-0
Stalker STK-3F
Stalker STK-4N
Stalker STK-4P
Stalker STK-3F Jagawen ( another canon 1 of )
Awesome AWS-8T
Marauder MAD-3M
Archer ARC-2K
Rifleman RFL-3N
Rifleman RFL-4D
Ostroc OSR-2L
Ostroc OSR-2M
Ostroc OSR-2C  ( 3C has 3 large lasers ,2C has 2 ) )
Ostroc OSR-2C Michi ( canon 1 of a kind IIRC )
Ostsol OTL-4D
Blackjack BJ-1DB
Crab CRB-20
Hermes HER-4K
Lynx LNX-8Q

The size of the 2 large lasers or more per mech  list surprised me
when I looked into it . Even if you remove the one-of mechs it's surprisingly
large .
I'd have to do a more thorough check on it -but there may well be more mechs
that mount 2 or more large lasers then 2 or more PPCs .

Starslayer STY-2C and STY-3C.
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Sartris

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #40 on: 01 May 2016, 23:23:27 »
The following list carry 2 for those interested .
Atlas AS7-RS
Devastator DVS-1D
Emperor EMP-5A
Crocket CRK-5003-0
Stalker STK-3F
Stalker STK-4N
Stalker STK-4P
Stalker STK-3F Jagawen ( another canon 1 of )
Awesome AWS-8T
Marauder MAD-3M
Archer ARC-2K
Rifleman RFL-3N
Rifleman RFL-4D
Ostroc OSR-2L
Ostroc OSR-2M
Ostroc OSR-2C  ( 3C has 3 large lasers ,2C has 2 ) )
Ostroc OSR-2C Michi ( canon 1 of a kind IIRC )
Ostsol OTL-4D
Blackjack BJ-1DB
Crab CRB-20
Hermes HER-4K
Lynx LNX-8Q

The size of the 2 large lasers or more per mech  list surprised me
when I looked into it . Even if you remove the one-of mechs it's surprisingly
large .
I'd have to do a more thorough check on it -but there may well be more mechs
that mount 2 or more large lasers then 2 or more PPCs .

I went back and double-checked, there are about 80 mechs with 2+ Larger lasers. So there are more of those than 2+ standard PPCs

Demon55

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #41 on: 02 May 2016, 03:36:32 »
I prefer Large Lasers as the minimum range bracket of the PPC allows the enemy to negate a good portion of my firepower by getting within 90m of me. 

Church14

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #42 on: 02 May 2016, 13:54:48 »
It depends on the design and circumstance.

Would I yank PPCs out of a Warhammer or a Defiance for LLs? Probably not. It has an array of infighting weaponry to deal with the minimum. PPC is superior here.

Would I rip the PPC out of an old Panther for a LL? Maybe. Those two tons can now be heatsinks so I can jump and fire everything and not overheat. LL has its merits here, though a case about ambush fighting can be made for the PPC.

Would I replace the LL in the Enforcer with a PPC? No. Keeping the heat down so I can keep firing both is too useful.

For me it is more an aggro difference. Players seem to treat PPCs with special hate. That two LL flashman will get ignored so they can kill a marauder or warhammer.

Shin Ji

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #43 on: 02 May 2016, 14:02:39 »
If we're assuming you're already packing MLs or SRMs (and really, in 3025, why wouldn't you?), then the PPC is king, no doubt.

The LL really fails when you look at it in comparison to the ML, moreso than the PPC.  You're paying 5 more heat and 4 more tons for +3 damage and +2 range.  It's far from useless, but assuming you can scrounge up the extra 2 tons, very few designs with LLs aren't improved by swapping them for PPCs.

The PPC gives +5 damage and double the range.  Now the tonnage is a bear, but there's enough of a difference in hitting power and range to think of it in a new category at least.

Sartris

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #44 on: 02 May 2016, 14:08:28 »
It depends on the design and circumstance.

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Quote
Would I yank PPCs out of a Warhammer or a Defiance for LLs? Probably not. It has an array of infighting weaponry to deal with the minimum. PPC is superior here.

I ran a custom once of a a modded WHM-6D that ran LLs instead of PPCs. Not bad. 8/10. Would pilot again. Is that better than the -6D or -6R? maybe. probably depends on personal playstyle preferences more than anything else.

Quote
Would I rip the PPC out of an old Panther for a LL? Maybe. Those two tons can now be heatsinks so I can jump and fire everything and not overheat. LL has its merits here, though a case about ambush fighting can be made for the PPC.

The PNT-8Z is a canon variant (fluffed as the prototype panther that debuted 20 years before the -9R. It ran with one extra sink and the other ton went to armor. I don't like it better than the stock -9R but I do prefer it to the ishy 3050 upgrade with the ERPPC and SHS.

Quote
For me it is more an aggro difference. Players seem to treat PPCs with special hate. That two LL flashman will get ignored so they can kill a marauder or warhammer.

very true. much like the AC/20. I get a lot of mileage out of designs that run x2 ER Large lasers for the same reason.

mike19k

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #45 on: 02 May 2016, 16:15:08 »
It depends on the design and circumstance.

Would I yank PPCs out of a Warhammer or a Defiance for LLs? Probably not. It has an array of infighting weaponry to deal with the minimum. PPC is superior here.

Would I rip the PPC out of an old Panther for a LL? Maybe. Those two tons can now be heatsinks so I can jump and fire everything and not overheat. LL has its merits here, though a case about ambush fighting can be made for the PPC.

Would I replace the LL in the Enforcer with a PPC? No. Keeping the heat down so I can keep firing both is too useful.

For me it is more an aggro difference. Players seem to treat PPCs with special hate. That two LL flashman will get ignored so they can kill a marauder or warhammer.

In the last campaign I was in I ended up in a Marauder II, once I swapped the PPC's for LL it was much more dangerous. Now part of that is fighting style, I am a a close range brawler so the PPC's minimum range is a big issue, also heat management is easier I think for the LL and ML over the PPC and ML.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #46 on: 02 May 2016, 16:24:29 »
Would I yank PPCs out of a Warhammer or a Defiance for LLs? Probably not. It has an array of infighting weaponry to deal with the minimum. PPC is superior here.

Warhammer, yes.  Too little armor, too few heat sinks.  You can fix one problem, if not both for a concession in range.
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The Eagle

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #47 on: 02 May 2016, 22:28:32 »
In point of fact, during a campaign I did that very thing.  I swapped the PPCs down to large lasers and pulled the machine guns.  The freed up weight went into armor, which made it a decent infighter.
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Don Lunardi

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #48 on: 03 May 2016, 02:34:17 »
Back in Ye Olden Daye, I would have said PPCs for sure.  But having experimented more with 3rd SSW Marik forces as of late gave me new love for the LL.  While replacing PPCs with LLs can result in a more effective design (hello Marauder-M), the effect tends to be even more pronounced when we get to swapping stock Autocannons for an LL (*Hello* Wolverine-M!).

I posted a thread a ways back where I experimented with swapping in LLs for PPCs/Autocannons in various 3025 designs popular in Marik service, and found the results not half bad.  Some 'Mechs do change in role somewhat, as several have pointed out is the case with an LL-armed 'Hammer.  OTOH, I was able to make interesting variants such as a 7/11 Hermes II with an LL instead of AC/5, or a usable Banshee-3M by swapping the PPCs for either an SRM6 or more ML & HS.  Yes, you tend to lose some range over the PPC or AC/5, but since Marik tends to love their LRM Boats as much as their LLs, this doesn't seem to be much of a weakness for the typical FWLM force.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #49 on: 04 May 2016, 11:22:07 »
Large Lasers just feel like the JV version of PPCs.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #50 on: 06 May 2016, 20:07:13 »
Warhammer, yes.  Too little armor, too few heat sinks.  You can fix one problem, if not both for a concession in range.
I think the WHM-6D manages to fix both problems while retaining the PPCs...

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #51 on: 06 May 2016, 23:52:40 »
I think the WHM-6D manages to fix both problems while retaining the PPCs...

Yup, the -6D is a solid machine.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #52 on: 07 May 2016, 00:35:50 »
I think the WHM-6D manages to fix both problems while retaining the PPCs...

That's one solution, though it does waste about a half ton of armor that is allotted but not able to be fitted.  I did experiment with a straight PPC to LL swap though.  The challenging part is that matter of do you use the freed tonnage all for HS a la Marauder-M to allow for better close in Alpha Striking, or do you go the WHM-6D route and turn it into a pocket Assault but less able to fire everything in close?  Playing around with the heat curve, an even split of +2 HS and +2 tons of armor does seem to be a reasonable balance point.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #53 on: 07 May 2016, 22:40:59 »
The compromise would look something like a Warhmmer 6L swapping out the PPCs for Lasers.  The problem is that two Large Laser don't force a PSR like the 2 PPC combination.  So while you lose out on that short range firepower on a Warhammer from the PPC minimums, it's probably toast regardless at close range even if you swapped out for lasers.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #54 on: 08 May 2016, 12:40:26 »
The compromise would look something like a Warhmmer 6L swapping out the PPCs for Lasers.  The problem is that two Large Laser don't force a PSR like the 2 PPC combination.  So while you lose out on that short range firepower on a Warhammer from the PPC minimums, it's probably toast regardless at close range even if you swapped out for lasers.

Except not.  I made that switch and my Whammy would wade into close range firefights and kick serious tail.  Two each large, medium, and small lasers plus the SRMs with plenty of sinks and extra armor?  Worked like a charm.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #55 on: 08 May 2016, 18:31:27 »
Except not.  I made that switch and my Whammy would wade into close range firefights and kick serious tail.  Two each large, medium, and small lasers plus the SRMs with plenty of sinks and extra armor?  Worked like a charm.

The merits of which aren't my point.  If you are going with a comparison between PPCs and Large Laser the PPCs come out ahead unless you start getting into minimum range and even then within 2 hexes of the opponent to extremely inconvenience them.  It takes the Hothammer 3-4 weapons to match what you can do in 2 with PPCs and cause a PSR.  As much as I love the standard Large Laser, that makes the PPC the better weapon.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #56 on: 08 May 2016, 19:14:12 »
Large Lasers aren't at all horrible, but the game system really incentivizes large chunks of damage over smaller chunks of damage (PPC to the head is a crit roll; LL to the head is not; 10 damage in one location is more likely to 'cause a crit roll than 8 in a vacuum). As such, PPCs generally win out, for my money.

On a damage per ton scale, PPCs are more efficient, doing .7 damage per ton of weapon vs the LL at .625, with identical heat per damage (i.e. 1:1). And then the extra range for the PPC, and larger chunk of damage pushes it over the top. Yeah, the PPC has a minimum range, which will occasionally be a hassle (and the LL never needs to worry about that), but you can always just walk backwards (or run forward and twist) and the minimum range ceases to be an issue. It isn't at all difficult to never suffer from the PPC minimum range penalty.

Like, if you are planning on being inside the PPC minimum range, you might as well be using Medium Lasers instead of Large Lasers. If you are planning on shooting at outside of close combat ranges, PPCs are the way to go, generally speaking.

Again, Large Lasers aren't at all horrible, but give the choice, I'd generally take a PPC over a LL (assuming I have a choice and control over the design of the mech). There are certainly mechs in the 3025-3039 era that could totally benefit from replacing PPCs with LLs, but that is 'cause of the design of the mech rather than because LLs are generally better than PPCs. Yeah, taking a Warhammer and replacing the PPCs with LLs (and armor?) is going to improve the Warhammer. But so will leaving in the PPCs and pulling out some of the other non PPC guns (MGs, SRM6?) and replacing them with armor and/or heat sinks. But then, to be fair, two of the best cannon mechs of the 3039 era are primarily armed with LLs (Wolfhound and Crab). So at least there is that.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #57 on: 08 May 2016, 19:32:55 »
  It  depends on the era -Before DHS, I'd prefer LL just for efficiency. It would also be more economical to stock an all-LL force. If you're looking from the cost-efficient standpoint, PPCs require extra heat sinks.

  When playing campaign and counting C-Bills, LL is the way to go. PPCs are a luxury until DHS and ER variants are available.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #58 on: 09 May 2016, 09:59:32 »
Since the PPC increases the number of critical slots used by 50%, and increases the weight of the weapon by 40% over a LL, for a mere 25% increase in total damage, it's not as efficient per ton or slot.  Heat is equally efficient, at 1 point of heat per point of damage.  The PPC merely pushes the same effective length range band OUT by three hexes, leaving a weak zone at ranges of 1-3 hexes (IF you use the rule which allows the PPC to fire at ranges below its minimum, which is better than not being able to shoot at all), making the PPC the clear winner at 16-18 hexes, but either inferior at 1-2 and roughly equivalent at 3, or useless at 1-3, depending on the optional rules.  Whether the situation calls for the longer range or the higher efficiency per ton or slot depends on the details of the design and the terrain situation where you employ it.

Concentration of damage is a valid advantage of the PPC against other 'Mechs (particularly head shots), but spending less tonnage on the PPC and more on secondary weapons will generally favor the LL against other targets.  For the tonnage of two PPCs, you're only one ton shy of being able to use 3 LLs.
« Last Edit: 09 May 2016, 10:02:59 by Kovax »

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #59 on: 09 May 2016, 10:18:40 »
It takes the Hothammer 3-4 weapons to match what you can do in 2 with PPCs and cause a PSR. 

Well, a Hothammer has a pair of PPCs so I'm sure it could get a PSR that way....
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