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Author Topic: Onmi-mech Customisation  (Read 1547 times)

(SMD)MadCow

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Onmi-mech Customisation
« on: 04 August 2016, 16:22:10 »
Omnis lose the ability to mount pods if the internals/engine get changed right? Where is this?

Xotl

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #1 on: 18 September 2016, 19:32:40 »
Somewhere in TechManual.
3028-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Adgar76

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #2 on: 18 September 2016, 19:41:09 »
Also check this official answer from some time ago:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1745.msg44734.html#msg44734

Colt Ward

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #3 on: 19 September 2016, 11:21:08 »
Yeah . . . programmable gyro is not so programmable huh?

Sort of contradicts the fluff . . . and the Bolla definitely 'breaks' that bit of reasoning.
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Scotty

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #4 on: 19 September 2016, 11:25:55 »
The Bolla was a new factory production of an Omnivehicle based on the WOB's Bolla.  It is not "customized".
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Colt Ward

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #5 on: 19 September 2016, 11:39:25 »
Came with C3i IIRC . . . and the Republic stripped C3i out like they did other Blakist designs.

Its silly.  The idea that I replace the 2 MLs on a Avatar with ERMLs suddenly causes a power surge to weld the pods/config on the mech at that time to become fixed is absurd.  Or the BAP on a Men Shen is replaced with ECM.  Or where the crits are free, the small cockpits are removed from Celestials for normal cockpits.  Ad naseum.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #6 on: 19 September 2016, 11:57:44 »
Seems to me it is more that it is programmed with "X factors never change, Y factors can be customized" so when you change one of the X factors it causes issues that make the omni tech stop adapting to new loadouts. Fixing it would be involve combing through the base code to find the errors the populated through the omnisystems due to those changes, which would in turn, end with it being a "Factory standard" even if there is only one in the universe. The short term fix is to turn off the omni tech until that can happen.

Scotty

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #7 on: 19 September 2016, 12:04:39 »
Came with C3i IIRC . . . and the Republic stripped C3i out like they did other Blakist designs.

The Republic retooled the factory to continue producing OmniBollas.  They didn't rip the C3i out of existing Bollas and continue using them as Omnis.  They aren't customized, in the sense that actually matters.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #8 on: 19 September 2016, 12:28:32 »
Seems to me it is more that it is programmed with "X factors never change, Y factors can be customized" so when you change one of the X factors it causes issues that make the omni tech stop adapting to new loadouts. Fixing it would be involve combing through the base code to find the errors the populated through the omnisystems due to those changes, which would in turn, end with it being a "Factory standard" even if there is only one in the universe. The short term fix is to turn off the omni tech until that can happen.

Omni-tech is about the pods being plug & play with the gyro being programmable to adjust to shifts in the balance of the load.  Since you can plug in and upload ERML specs to the targetting system . . . and they would go in the same place and weigh the same . . . how does changing MLs for ERMLs on the Avatar break that?

Changing Engine, structure and even armor could be the X.  Hardwired equipment like the Avatar's MLs or the Men Shen's BAP- either to be replaced by similar or to gain more pod tonnage.  It sort of reflects the Omni CASE change . . . before it was hardwired into the chassis.  Now its a 'pod-able' device which makes the Sunder a better choice for campaign play than it originally was when it came out.

Scotty- I understand they retooled the factory.  They did it with quite a few WoB designs, but they also made their captured machines standard to what they produced by converting them.
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Scotty

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #9 on: 19 September 2016, 12:53:28 »
And the ones they converted from pre-existing vehicles became non-omni.  We just don't have record sheets for them because it'd be supremely redundant, and likely extinct within 5-10 years from its introduction date.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #10 on: 19 September 2016, 13:07:08 »
Omni-tech is about the pods being plug & play with the gyro being programmable to adjust to shifts in the balance of the load.  Since you can plug in and upload ERML specs to the targeting system . . . and they would go in the same place and weigh the same . . . how does changing MLs for ERMLs on the Avatar break that?

Changing Engine, structure and even armor could be the X.  Hardwired equipment like the Avatar's MLs or the Men Shen's BAP- either to be replaced by similar or to gain more pod tonnage.  It sort of reflects the Omni CASE change . . . before it was hardwired into the chassis.  Now its a 'pod-able' device which makes the Sunder a better choice for campaign play than it originally was when it came out.

Actually, I believe that Pod Space is part of the base structure that can't be changed. Everything on the base design that isn't pod space, is specifically not pod space and can't be modified with the ease of omnitech. You would have to rip out those things, and then install omni tech and modify the existing structure and then add in the new omni ER ML (something that is a factory level change). Everything that is not part of the pod space is the X. If they were able to just be pulled out and replaced with more pod space, they wouldn't be notable as something other than pod space on the base chassis.

Why a design engineer would chose to do that I have no idea (other than to troll everyone), but that is what it seems to be to me.

Specifically to this:
Omni-tech is about the pods being plug & play with the gyro being programmable to adjust to shifts in the balance of the load.  Since you can plug in and upload ERML specs to the targeting system . . . and they would go in the same place and weigh the same . . . how does changing MLs for ERMLs on the Avatar break that?

You could rip out the two medium lasers, and this would throw off the X by 2 tons, and that one spot isn't podable space, because it was designed to have hardwired tech there, but you could install the 2 ER ML somewhere else and the omnitech would adapt, but it's X isn't adjustable so it's balancing factors would be calculating it as X+newY rather than (X-2)+(Y+2), which would mean it is balancing the mech for being two tons overweight when it really isn't, which throws everything off balance, until some poor tech can get in there and fix what it thinks X is.

You or I could fix that kind of problem in, say, a spreadsheet, with something as simple as a find and replace command, but kind of like bugs in MMOs, we don't really have any idea how complex the omnitech programming is, and it could be 'that' complex to fix... or it could be that they are trying to fix the errors in windows 10 with an apple 2c.

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #11 on: 19 September 2016, 14:06:18 »
No, my original point of that was simply replace the MLs with ERMLs and the weight does not change nor does balance.  You just have to update the targetting software.

But say you do not replace them and just leave it as empty space, instead you want to increase pod tonnage by 2 tons . . . then the programmable gyro which takes into account drastic change based on the weapon is suddenly borked by moving 2 tons from the center to a side?

And no, even your example where you treat it as the advanced rules where techs make rolls to see if a modification work.  So you change out the aforementioned hardwired MLs and make the difficulty rolls to replace them with hardwired ERMLs in the same spot magically 'locks' that Omni in the current configuration and it is no longer a Omni.  Same deal for changing a Men Shen's hardwired BAP for a hardwired ECM, it 'breaks' the Omni nature of the machine- no matter if you successfully make the tech rolls for that chassis customization.

I am not saying the 2 CT crits on the Avatar become 'Omni' space, I am talking about the change of one hardwired item for another with all the difficulty rolls it entails.
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Cryhavok101

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #12 on: 19 September 2016, 14:23:02 »
No, my original point of that was simply replace the MLs with ERMLs and the weight does not change nor does balance.  You just have to update the targetting software.

But say you do not replace them and just leave it as empty space, instead you want to increase pod tonnage by 2 tons . . . then the programmable gyro which takes into account drastic change based on the weapon is suddenly borked by moving 2 tons from the center to a side?

And no, even your example where you treat it as the advanced rules where techs make rolls to see if a modification work.  So you change out the aforementioned hardwired MLs and make the difficulty rolls to replace them with hardwired ERMLs in the same spot magically 'locks' that Omni in the current configuration and it is no longer a Omni.  Same deal for changing a Men Shen's hardwired BAP for a hardwired ECM, it 'breaks' the Omni nature of the machine- no matter if you successfully make the tech rolls for that chassis customization.

I am not saying the 2 CT crits on the Avatar become 'Omni' space, I am talking about the change of one hardwired item for another with all the difficulty rolls it entails.

Ah, okay, I got no answer for that.

massey

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #13 on: 19 September 2016, 15:03:42 »
My guess is that building a mech, and particularly an Omnimech, is more difficult than the simple calculations we use when designing one in the game.

It's one thing to take a Warhammer, and write on a piece of paper "remove machine guns and ammo, add 1 ton armor and 1 heat sink", and then add a few points of armor to different locations.  It's another thing entirely for some techs in-universe to go into the chassis, take out the machine gun housings, remove the ammo feed, find a place to wire in another heat sink, and then balance the additional armor in a way that lets the mech move about freely and provides even protection across entire locations.

One is easy.  One is probably pretty hard.

My recollection of the Avatar is that the two hard-wired medium lasers were a result of a glitch they couldn't get fixed.  And while there are no in-game rules for building a mech that doesn't work right, even though you followed the construction rules, "real life" in the game is different.  Negative quirks can simulate that, but the basic design rules don't account for it.  The Bushwhacker is another example of something that would have been perfectly book legal, but doesn't work for some reason.

Swapping out fixed equipment on an Omni seems like something that could cause a lot of problems, but doesn't necessarily always do so.  The Avatar example, I wouldn't have a problem with somebody swapping out medium lasers for ER mediums.  It's the same weight, the same number of criticals, even the same basic type of weapon.  But changing from regular internal structure to endo steel, you've got to rebuild the entire mech.  Yanking out an ECM suite and C3 for an anti-missile system and extra heat sinks, that requires changing the mech's targeting systems, rerouting coolant lines to a place they didn't go before, that kind of thing.

I can see how doing that might interfere with the carefully-designed pod system.  Like making three or four random moves on a Rubik's cube.

Colt Ward

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Re: Onmi-mech Customisation
« Reply #14 on: 19 September 2016, 15:11:50 »
Yeah, for the Avatar it was even fluffed that the problem was corrected in later years/production runs IIRC.
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