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Author Topic: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition  (Read 31514 times)

Sartris

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #510 on: 19 December 2017, 04:56:06 »
DEN@IND
CHI@DET

LAC@KC
MIA@BUF
BAL@CLE
CIN@MIN
NYJ@NO
PHI@NYG
ARI@WAS
GB@CAR
HOU@JAX

LAR@SEA
NE@PIT

TEN@SF
DAL@OAK
ATL@TB


Have you ever gone through your day thinking you had made the right choices only to come back and be betrayed by that idiot, Past You?

I would have bet a not insubstantial amount of money that I had picked both LA teams to win. Not so, says the magic internet box.

Anyway the rules of football are needlessly complex and a multi-billion dollar industry is making critical decions in games on the best guess of a part time employee making a fudged jugement call regarding the position of the football in a scrum. That same part time employee then justifies his guesstimated ball position with OH MY GOD A FOLDED INDEX CARD. NOT EVEN HE CAN KEEP A STRAIGHT FACE

Meanwhile I’d like to take the following poll
Q1: Do you believe that not contacting gronk, a known polar bear trained to catch footballs, at the line of scrimmage, and subsequently allowing him to roam free through the Steelers’ secondary is a GOOD IDEA, a BAD IDEA, or a FIRABLE OFFENSE?

Kit deSummersville

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #511 on: 19 December 2017, 09:29:06 »
Forgive me for focusing on this point and I'm not directing this at you.  I just find it strange that there is somewhat recent confusion or frustration on a fundamental rule of football.  A runner can't simply toss or fumble the ball across the goal and expect to get it back at the one-yard line.  Think of it, a runner at the 15-yard bowls the ball forward to get it at the one-yard line.  That's not reflective of either rushing or passing.  I suspect Mike Florio, of ProFootballTalk, has made the frustration popular.  I'm not biased either, I recall yelling at my TV as RGIII bumbled this play on two occasions and being frustrated by the result.  That said, why do you hate the rule?

It penalizes the team for doing better. Fumble the ball at the 50, get it back there. Fumble the ball at the 2, get it there. Fumble at the one inch line, get it there. Fumble into the endzone? Whoa! The other team gets it. Should have fumbled it farther away.

And again, this benefited my team this time.
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Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #512 on: 19 December 2017, 09:40:13 »
Allow me to burn your strawman for you, and remind you that you can't advance a fumble.  There's a name for this, an entire play built around it (it's called a "Fumblerooski"), and it's been illegal in the NFL for over 25 years.  Fumbles that go out of bounds are returned to the place where the fumble occurred.

The only place that this changes is in the endzone, where the defense is magically assumed to have recovered.  It's bullshit.  Nowhere else in all of football is the defense assumed to have made a play on the ball when the ball becomes dead.  It also has the really, really unfortunate side effect of turning something exciting (diving for the pylon) into not only something not exciting (failing to get the TD through no effort of the defense), but something actively unfun to watch (the defense being rewarded for happenstance) that has ruined no fewer than three games this year.
Again, not trying to be rude or force burning of anything on your part.  Just trying to have a discussion.  The point about which I was inarticulate was the question is about possession.  A fumble, like a punt or quick kick, is a loss of possession.  The offense must retain possession.  Lose possession in the offenses end zone is a safety.  Lose possession in the defensive end zone it is a touchback regardless of means. The only place the offense is rewarded for bungling possession is when the ball remains loose and goes across the sideline.  That's the outlier because the onus is on the offense to retain possession of the ball.

Also, the fumbling player is only player that can advance the ball but only in the last two minutes of the half.  And you've mistaken the Holy Roller with the Fumblerooskie (illegal in college but not the pros if the ball is placed behind the QB).
It penalizes the team for doing better. Fumble the ball at the 50, get it back there. Fumble the ball at the 2, get it there. Fumble at the one inch line, get it there. Fumble into the endzone? Whoa! The other team gets it. Should have fumbled it farther away.

And again, this benefited my team this time.
Supposedly, via Twitter, Belichick will bench players that try to stretch or reach likely because he is directly concerned with possessing the ball.

I have seen the 'Skins burned and benefitted from it.  I just don't get the confusion over ball control.

Scotty

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #513 on: 19 December 2017, 09:57:02 »
It's not confusion.  We think the rule is stupid, bad, and unfun.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #514 on: 19 December 2017, 10:26:10 »
That's the outlier because the onus is on the offense to retain possession of the ball.


That makes no sense. How is 100 yards out of 120 the outlier? How is the onus on the offense to retain possession of the ball when 5/6th of the sideline rewards the offense with the ball should it cross (or a player touching the ball cross) while only a sixth of the field rewards the defense? If the onus was so much on the offense then the defense would be rewarded with any ball fumbled out of bounds.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #515 on: 19 December 2017, 10:28:13 »
DEN@IND Both horse teams should be made into glue at this point...
CHI@DET[/b]
LAC@KC
MIA@BUF
BAL@CLE
CIN@MIN
NYJ@NO
PHI@NYG
ARI@WAS
GB@CAR Assuming that there's no Rodgers for GB, of course.
HOU@JAX
LAR@SEA
NE@PIT
TEN@SF
DAL@OAK
ATL@TB
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
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+Crow T. Robot+

Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #516 on: 19 December 2017, 12:04:26 »
That makes no sense. How is 100 yards out of 120 the outlier? How is the onus on the offense to retain possession of the ball when 5/6th of the sideline rewards the offense with the ball should it cross (or a player touching the ball cross) while only a sixth of the field rewards the defense? If the onus was so much on the offense then the defense would be rewarded with any ball fumbled out of bounds.
I am close to the point to thinking that last part should be the case.  Anyway, it isn't so much about distance but about instance. The only instance in which loss of possession equals retained possession fumbling out of bounds. Every other loss of possession is fundamentally bad. Hence an outlier in possession determination.

A quibble with your point, 2/3rds rewards the offense for bungling; 1/6th yields a safety and the last sixth a touchback.  Put in that context, distance and function become relevant.  The sidelines stop play and the clock while the end zones stop play, the clock and control scoring.  The cost is higher for failing to control the ball around the end zones.  Also, fumble is inherently a negative word and not something to be rewarded.

Kit deSummersville

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #517 on: 19 December 2017, 12:35:09 »
I am close to the point to thinking that last part should be the case.  Anyway, it isn't so much about distance but about instance. The only instance in which loss of possession equals retained possession fumbling out of bounds. Every other loss of possession is fundamentally bad. Hence an outlier in possession determination.

That's not true. If there is no recovery the offense retains the ball. The only way the defense gets possession is if they have possession of the ball or in the end zone instances.

Quote
A quibble with your point, 2/3rds rewards the offense for bungling; 1/6th yields a safety and the last sixth a touchback. 

Again, that's not correct. 5/6ths of the length of the field the offense retains possession. 1/12th of the time the defense gets a safety and 1/12th of the time the defense gets a touchback. The field is 100 yards long and each endzone is 10 yards deep, fro a total of 120 yards of sideline on each side.


And that treats all parts of the field equally where we know that the ball is toward the middle of the field far more frequently than near either goal.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #518 on: 19 December 2017, 12:36:48 »
To me, make it easy and place the ball on the 1-yard line. Why this has to be so damned complicated is beyond me (and a hallmark of the modern NFL, as a result)
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
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Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #519 on: 19 December 2017, 13:29:59 »
To me, make it easy and place the ball on the 1-yard line. Why this has to be so damned complicated is beyond me (and a hallmark of the modern NFL, as a result)
Or you know, hold onto the ball.
That's not true. If there is no recovery the offense retains the ball. The only way the defense gets possession is if they have possession of the ball or in the end zone instances.

Again, that's not correct. 5/6ths of the length of the field the offense retains possession. 1/12th of the time the defense gets a safety and 1/12th of the time the defense gets a touchback. The field is 100 yards long and each endzone is 10 yards deep, fro a total of 120 yards of sideline on each side.


And that treats all parts of the field equally where we know that the ball is toward the middle of the field far more frequently than near either goal.
First, smartphones aren't conducive to typing or multi-quoting.

Second, a team loses possession of the ball if they punt it, quick kick it, or fumble it even momentarily. That's the point of context. As you said, if no one recovers it before going out bounds it goes back to the offense.  If is it punted out bounds it is still a change of possession and the same holds true for the quick kick. The unintentional action, the mistake, the fumble benefits the offender.

Third, math at which I do poor work.  You're counting the sideline in the end zone but not the endlines which have the same effect and are 53.3 yds wide.  So 200yds of sideline and 146ish of end zone boundary.  I get your point but not to the 1/12th degree if you will. I was going with the same 200 yds, 106 of goal line and breaking that into sixths. Sorry for being unclear.

I like but don't agree with your summary point. Thanks for helping me get past Florio's "dumbest rule" argument to something more cogent.

My point is to treat possession equally and don't reward a mistake regardless of field position.


JadeHellbringer

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #520 on: 19 December 2017, 13:45:22 »
Or you know, hold onto the ball.

Which, yeah, while you aren't wrong that still doesn't always happen, so having a better plan in place besides 'stop screwing up' would be pretty helpful. After all, if it were as easy as just saying 'don't screw up', we wouldn't have the Browns in the first place, would we?
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

monbvol

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #521 on: 19 December 2017, 13:53:34 »
Well the Browns are just a special case.

I'm pretty sure someone told them not to screw up then they went and drafted Johny "football".  Now I'm willing to bet he could have been a much better QB if developed by another team but we all saw how that turned out.

Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #522 on: 19 December 2017, 14:02:52 »
Which, yeah, while you aren't wrong that still doesn't always happen, so having a better plan in place besides 'stop screwing up' would be pretty helpful. After all, if it were as easy as just saying 'don't screw up', we wouldn't have the Browns in the first place, would we?
I yell that at my TV all the time. I still don't get why the 'Skins can't stop doing otherwise.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #523 on: 19 December 2017, 14:10:19 »
I yell that at my TV all the time. I still don't get why the 'Skins can't stop doing otherwise.

"Karma" would be my guess.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."

+Crow T. Robot+

Scotty

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #524 on: 19 December 2017, 16:20:47 »
Point of information: fumbles do not actually change possession from the moment the ball is fumbled.  It's still the offense's ball until the moment the defense gains control.  This is why a fumble on 4th down is still a turnover on downs if the ball was short of the sticks, even if the offense recovers.  Similarly, punts and FGS are deliberate changes of possession to set them apart.  Intent matters on kicks.

The end zone is the only time the defence is assumed to make a play to gain possession.
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Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #525 on: 19 December 2017, 22:54:24 »
Point of information: fumbles do not actually change possession from the moment the ball is fumbled.  It's still the offense's ball until the moment the defense gains control.  This is why a fumble on 4th down is still a turnover on downs if the ball was short of the sticks, even if the offense recovers.  Similarly, punts and FGS are deliberate changes of possession to set them apart.  Intent matters on kicks.
Agreed on the change of possession aspect but if I remember Mike Pereira correctly it is a two part process:  loss and recover.  I was referring to the loss aspect of that two-parter but can see how my post can seem otherwise.

I thought about intent for kicks but discarded it as a supporting angle.  Yes, the offense elects to kick but the relevant aspect is what generates a touchback which is punting or quick kicking the ball into the end zone.  The kicker sent the ball out of the field of play into the scoring area by way of an intentional act.  The kicker isn't rewarded for that.  Even more to the point, a failed field goal is effectively a turnover at the spot of the kick.  The message is clear, don't choose to lose control the ball around the end zone.
But if a player fumbles out of bounds or out of the end zone unintentionally the argument is that a fundamental football mistake should be rewarded by returning the ball back to the spot of the mistake.
The end zone is the only time the defence is assumed to make a play to gain possession.
I wrestled with this part for a while but I believe you are assuming that the offense gets a pass for making a mistake while close to scoring.  It isn't about the defense.

Scotty

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #526 on: 19 December 2017, 23:48:05 »
Agreed on the change of possession aspect but if I remember Mike Pereira correctly it is a two part process:  loss and recover.  I was referring to the loss aspect of that two-parter but can see how my post can seem otherwise.

But the thing is that the loss doesn't matter except in the sense of the ball still being live but not under control by a player on the offense.  Recovery is the only part of a fumble that actually has any effect on possession.

I thought about intent for kicks but discarded it as a supporting angle.  Yes, the offense elects to kick but the relevant aspect is what generates a touchback which is punting or quick kicking the ball into the end zone.  The kicker sent the ball out of the field of play into the scoring area by way of an intentional act.  The kicker isn't rewarded for that.  Even more to the point, a failed field goal is effectively a turnover at the spot of the kick.

 ???

You'll have to forgive me, but I don't see how this is relevant at all to whether or not the offense should be uniquely penalized in the end zone and nowhere else when it comes to fumbles out of bounds.  The relevant aspect to what generates a touchback isn't "punting or quick kicking the ball into the end zone", it's "the ball cannot be played from the endzone" which is where the receiving team recovers it.  That's literally the entire reason touchbacks exist.  The ball cannot be placed or snapped inside the endzone, so it has to go somewhere else.

But if a player fumbles out of bounds or out of the end zone unintentionally the argument is that a fundamental football mistake should be rewarded by returning the ball back to the spot of the mistake.I wrestled with this part for a while but I believe you are assuming that the offense gets a pass for making a mistake while close to scoring.  It isn't about the defense.

I'm still waiting to hear why the enormity of the mistake should be magnified an infinite amount because the runner was six inches closer to the goal line than one who fumbled out of bounds at the one.  The rules for what happen away from the endzone include this "reward".  Straight out of the book:

"A fumble that goes forward and out of bounds will return to the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble unless the ball goes out of bounds in the opponent’s end zone. In this case, it is a touchback."

Emphasis added.  Literally everywhere else the offense gets "rewarded" (I'm going to really disagree here, and say that it's definitely about the defense.  They haven't earned a damn thing and shouldn't be 'rewarded' either).  It's an asinine exception that does nothing but turn exciting plays into utterly unexciting and bitterly disappointing turnovers.

All it does is declare "never dive for the pylon" or "never try to extend the play into the endzone" which are some of the most spectacular and entertaining plays in the entire game.  Any rule that not only discourages that kind of play, but can actually lose entire games (2017 count: three) is pretty firmly antithetical to an entertainment product.
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Sartris

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #527 on: 20 December 2017, 00:32:18 »
Let's go back to the nineteenth century rules where field goals were worth five points

Sharpnel

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #528 on: 20 December 2017, 08:22:07 »
Predictions for the penultimate week

IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI
DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO
LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS
TB@CAR
JAX@SF
SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, VND-1R Vindicator 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company
Tai-i Shizuko Lofgren, Third Infantry Company, Oniwaka
Commandant Cyrus Nickle, ARC-3K Archer, Disposable Heroes
Cassius Bello, SDR-9K Venom 'Cassius', Kowalski's Borderers

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Charlie 6

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #529 on: 20 December 2017, 09:59:24 »
All it does is declare "never dive for the pylon" or "never try to extend the play into the endzone" which are some of the most spectacular and entertaining plays in the entire game.  Any rule that not only discourages that kind of play, but can actually lose entire games (2017 count: three) is pretty firmly antithetical to an entertainment product.
The rule is fine.  I fail to see how rewarding a player that is reckless with the ball and loses it before crossing the goal (hey there Desean Jackson, Leon Lett, Byron Marshall twice in a college season, RGIII, etc.) would increase entertainment value.  They goofed, they fumbled, and were at that moment inherently incompetent.  A team should lose a game on the account of bungling the basics.  Play smart, protect the ball and do the job.

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #530 on: 20 December 2017, 10:28:53 »
IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI
DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO
LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS
TB@CAR
JAX@SF
SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI
I have spoken.


monbvol

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #531 on: 20 December 2017, 13:12:33 »
IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI
DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO
LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS
TB@CAR
JAX@SF
SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #532 on: 20 December 2017, 14:03:05 »
The rule is fine.  I fail to see how rewarding a player that is reckless with the ball and loses it before crossing the goal (hey there Desean Jackson, Leon Lett, Byron Marshall twice in a college season, RGIII, etc.) would increase entertainment value.  They goofed, they fumbled, and were at that moment inherently incompetent.  A team should lose a game on the account of bungling the basics.  Play smart, protect the ball and do the job.
So why not award the ball to the defense any time it's fumbled out of bounds?
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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #533 on: 27 December 2017, 08:55:11 »
IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI
DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO
LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS

TB@CAR
JAX@SF
SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI


That ties my best.
I have spoken.


Sharpnel

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #534 on: 27 December 2017, 09:16:53 »
Predictions for the penultimate week

IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI
DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO
LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS
TB@CAR
JAX@SF
SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI

13-3 last week

Final Week picks

GB@DET
HOU@IND
CHI@MIN
NYJ@NE
WAS@NYG
DAL@PHI
CLE@PIT
CAR@ATL
KC@DEN
JAX@TEN
SF@LAR
BUF@MIA
OAK@LAC
ARI@SEA
NO@TB
CIN@BAL
Takehiro 'Taco' Uchimiya, VND-1R Vindicator 'Taco', Crimson Oasis Trading Company
Tai-i Shizuko Lofgren, Third Infantry Company, Oniwaka
Commandant Cyrus Nickle, ARC-3K Archer, Disposable Heroes
Cassius Bello, SDR-9K Venom 'Cassius', Kowalski's Borderers

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It's an Omni, so I can build it into whatever I please - JHB
"Life is too short to be living someone else's dream" - Hugh Hefner

monbvol

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #535 on: 27 December 2017, 13:18:21 »
IND@BAL
MIN@GB
CLE@CHI

DET@CIN
LAR@TEN
MIA@KC
BUF@NE
ATL@NO

LAC@NYJ
DEN@WAS
TB@CAR
JAX@SF

SEA@DAL
NYG@ARI
PIT@HOU
OAK@PHI


I've had a lot worse.

GB@DET
HOU@IND
CHI@MIN
NYJ@NE
WAS@NYG
DAL@PHI
CLE@PIT-Perfect season baby!
CAR@ATL
KC@DEN
JAX@TEN
SF@LAR
BUF@MIA
OAK@LAC
ARI@SEA-Really starting to feel like I have to peg Seattle to lose to get them to play even half decent.
NO@TB
CIN@BAL

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #536 on: 27 December 2017, 20:30:53 »
So is it true that the NFL has canceled Sunday Night Football?

ColBosch

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #537 on: 27 December 2017, 22:00:35 »
Yes. All games will be at either 1300 or 1625 EST.
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Sharpnel

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #538 on: 28 December 2017, 08:59:23 »
So is it true that the NFL has canceled Sunday Night Football?
Yes, they wanted all games with playoff implications to be played at the same, thus no Sunday night game on the last week of the season since the late 70s (77 or 78)
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: NFL 2017-2018, all the teams move to L.A. edition
« Reply #539 on: 28 December 2017, 11:05:34 »
I'd known about the 'last game' thing but had sworn I read somewhere it was going to be an all games daytime-only like at the times Bosch said.