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Author Topic: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR  (Read 874 times)

tomaddamz

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chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« on: 18 February 2017, 12:11:19 »
At Aldis Industries we take customer feedback seriously.  When we heard that our famous Zhukov  Heavy Heavy Tank could use some improvement, we didn't just automatically think you're crazy, we did something about it.  The result of that was the new Chuikov Heavy Tank with improved range, ammo endurance and rate of fire Brought by a new Tomodzuru Automatic Cannon built especially for us along with the new  Tomodzuru Enhanced LRM-system in the 15 tube range.  However we didn't stop there, We also heard about your concerns with the SRM-6 mounting along with the total lack of Anti-Infantry firepower and moved a lighter SRM system into the turret, along with the ammo to get the job done.

You can imagine our suprise when we heard what our customer thought.

Non twin cannons, Heresy...In nómine Pátris, et Fílii,  et Spirítus Sancti. Amen....

Swap the engine for a Fuel Cell, why are you guys being so cheap.

You know what would be awesome, Leather...black leather...and a flamer,,,a big flamer... and a long range flamer, cause I want to set things on fire way out there...and A-pods...that would be "Pretty Wizard"...and flashing lights...helicopter blades..


Now these comments are only a very small amount of feedback we heard, Most users actually loved our new Chuikov Heavy Tanks, but since these voices are from Procurement and Acquisition types...well...they are the ones cutting the checks.

Looking at what our customers asked for looked impossible at first.  Then we said we can either just give up, or we can go to work and charge our standard billing rates.

The place to start was with the engine ( if only to get the long range flamer to actually work), but if we were going to set thing on fire, we can do better than a long range flamer...and its a gun too.  With that breakthrough, the rest came After extensive testing and more than a few prototypes to the final form we see today in the  Zhukov UR ( uluchsheniye reaktsiya). 

We here at Aldis Industries do take feedback seriously.*

Code: [Select]
Zhukov UR Tank
IS advanced
75 tons 
BV: 1,266
Cost: 3,963,750 C-bills

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 225

Internal: 40
Armor: 176
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       8       44
Right                       8       32
Left                        8       32
Rear                        8       24
Turret                      8       44

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Plasma Rifle                    TU    10
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
SRM 6                           TU     4
Heavy Flamer                    TU     5
Heavy Flamer                    TU     5
SRM 6                           FR     4

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Plasma Rifle Ammo               BD    10
Plasma Rifle Ammo               BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Heavy Flamer Ammo               BD    10
SRM 6 Ammo                      BD    15
SRM 6 Ammo                      BD    15
As you can see this tank can do mid to short range fire well, but does suffer at longer ranges, If your game allows it the 2nd ton of SRM ammo using smoke works well here to mitigate that.  While it does short range with a decent amount of firepower it does not like staying there as that firepower is limited with the SRM/ Heavy Flamer.


 *Dis-claimer ( as opposed to Dat-claimer)  I would like to thank everyone for the feedback on the Chuikov thread, I also would be remiss in not thanking Mr. Seth Green for making Robot Chicken which woke me up and inspired me to actually try my hand at fluff..hopeully nobodys' feeling get hurt.
 IT"S A JOKE...why so serious
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Cryhavok101

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #1 on: 18 February 2017, 14:23:14 »
I'd use it, but if given a chance, I would also strip the 2 SRM-6s off and replace them with 4 MML-3s.

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #2 on: 18 February 2017, 18:53:19 »
I think that a classic "Mammoth-tank" should resemble this.

Code: [Select]
Zhukov Heavy Tank II
IS advanced
80 tons 
BV: 1,270
Cost: 4,005,000 C-bills

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 240 Fuel Cell

Internal: 40
Armor: 188 (Ferro-Fibrous)
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       8       45
Right                       8       34
Left                        8       34
Rear                        8       30
Turret                      8       45

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
MML 5                           TU     3
MML 5                           FR     3

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
MML 5 LRM Ammo                  BD    24
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10

Equipment                      Loc
----------------------------------
CASE                            BD

You can make it 5 ton lighter to bring it back to 75 ton, but you will be forced to take less ammo. Swapping one Ultra AC/10 for a RAC/5 can be another solution for a 75 ton chassis (but the guns won't be identical).

tomaddamz

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #3 on: 18 February 2017, 20:43:30 »
I'd use it, but if given a chance, I would also strip the 2 SRM-6s off and replace them with 4 MML-3s.
The selection of the SRM-6 was a deliberate design choice.

1). I actually don't mind closing so much, I have more firepower as the distance closes. 

2).  I have tonnage for specialty ammo, not necessarily dedicated APERS or inferno, but options.

3).  Smoke SRM-6s give the 3 hex conga line of smoke, where MML-3 can only do a 1 hex bubble.



I think that a classic "Mammoth-tank" should resemble this.

Code: [Select]
Zhukov Heavy Tank II
IS advanced
80 tons 
BV: 1,270
Cost: 4,005,000 C-bills

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 240 Fuel Cell

Internal: 40
Armor: 188 (Ferro-Fibrous)
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       8       45
Right                       8       34
Left                        8       34
Rear                        8       30
Turret                      8       45

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
MML 5                           TU     3
MML 5                           FR     3

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
MML 5 LRM Ammo                  BD    24
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10

Equipment                      Loc
----------------------------------
CASE                            BD

You can make it 5 ton lighter to bring it back to 75 ton, but you will be forced to take less ammo. Swapping one Ultra AC/10 for a RAC/5 can be another solution for a 75 ton chassis (but the guns won't be identical).

It's a little "literal", I am assuming the 2nd ton is for specialty SRM ammo.  With the Ultra ammo loadout, you are going to doubletap every shot I am assuming ( I use a 15 shot per tube rule for ammo loadouts, but that is just me).  I would probably lose 1 ton of Ultra ammo and go to 75 ton.  the option to be flexible with the MML ammo is a hidden plus, and do a credible job but simply no better than the MML-3.  My concern is that with LRMs ( and this is something I find myself doing when LRMs are a secondary or tertiary armament) is that you are tempted to slug it out, and with the throw weight of the LRMs here, being ...OK...and no crunch, it has been my personal experience it is better to amplify close in damage, especially with the hole seeking ability of the SRMs to follow up AC-10 hits.
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

Cryhavok101

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #4 on: 18 February 2017, 21:07:38 »
The selection of the SRM-6 was a deliberate design choice.

1). I actually don't mind closing so much, I have more firepower as the distance closes. 

3).  Smoke SRM-6s give the 3 hex conga line of smoke, where MML-3 can only do a 1 hex bubble.

I don't mind closing, but with a 3-5 speed, you are often giving the enemy the choice of engagement ranges (terrain permitting). Being able to harass someone at range with LRM fire would alter that dynamic. You can also use Smoke LRMs, which you could use to separate enemy units, leaving you with a clear line of fire to one, but a smoke screen between another, from pretty far away. Close range smoke missiles are less useful in my opinion. With 4 MML-3s, you could do a 4 hex conga line of smoke. They could also lay down thunder munitions, though not strong ones.

That being said, I'd still use it. In an urban (or other close-in) environment, this thing would be a butcher.

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #5 on: 18 February 2017, 23:50:23 »
Quote
3).  Smoke SRM-6s give the 3 hex conga line of smoke, where MML-3 can only do a 1 hex bubble.

That's incorrect, smoke munitions were errated.

Quote
Replace the second, third, and fourth bullet points with the following:
• Smoke Missiles fill a single target hex with a column of smoke 2 levels high (see p. 47).
• This smoke is treated as Light Smoke if the weapon delivers 5 points or less in damage to the target hex. Otherwise, it is treated as Heavy Smoke.
• This smoke dissipates in the End Phase of the third turn after the attack.

tomaddamz

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #6 on: 19 February 2017, 00:54:17 »
Again they were errata-ed, I remember when SRM-6s did the 7 hex bubble of darkness..oh well, let me see that errata again.

Suddenly MML-3s make much more sense...Until they change the rules again.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2017, 01:03:36 by tomaddamz »
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.

CrazyGrasshopper

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #7 on: 19 February 2017, 14:59:07 »
For the sake of completeness -- the 75 ton Fuel Cell upgrade:

Code: [Select]
Zhukov Heavy Tank (Upgrade II)
IS advanced
75 tons 
BV: 1,192
Cost: 3,635,625 C-bills

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 225 Fuel Cell

Internal: 40
Armor: 179 (Ferro-Fibrous)
                     Internal    Armor
--------------------------------------
Front                       8       44
Right                       8       32
Left                        8       32
Rear                        8       27
Turret                      8       44

Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
Ultra AC/10                     TU     4
MML 5                           TU     3
MML 5                           FR     3

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
Ultra AC/10 Ammo                BD    10
MML 5 LRM Ammo                  BD    24
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20
MML 5 SRM Ammo                  BD    20

Equipment                      Loc
----------------------------------
CASE                            BD

As for the choice of MML-5:

1) MML-5 is better than SRM-6, because for a meager loss in a short-range damage you gain an ability to deal an ability to deliver a long-range one.
2) MML-5 is better than 2xMML-3 and 2xMML-5 is still better than 4xMML-3 if your go-to ammo are infernos. I did not make the most precise calculation, but my estimations show that MML-5's are better in delivering 3, 6 or 9 missiles.
3) What are the exact rules for delivering smoke for a case when the smoke stacks? Because MML-5 delivers a hex of heavy smoke using SRM's.

EDIT: A rigorous calculation shows that MML-5 is more effective than 2xMML-3 with inferno ammo on TN 6+, 2xMML-5 are more effective than 4xMML-3 on TN 8+. That is, if I did not make any mistakes.



« Last Edit: 20 February 2017, 13:57:59 by CrazyGrasshopper »

tomaddamz

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Re: chuikov customer feedback...it's the zhukov UR
« Reply #8 on: 19 February 2017, 22:58:22 »
As I recall, 2 light smoke equal 1 heavy smoke and IIRC heavy smoke blocks LOS ( unless they have errataed that again).  Now if I am reading the errataed stuff right 2 posts up, LRM-5 smoke is only 1 light hex,  so it can be shot through ( it does not block LOS).  Now I realize this is overstating the obvious, but using SRM Smoke gets you heavy smoke per hex, used judiciously you can deny long range shots on yourself, and severely upset mid range shots by forcing units to maneuver. 

Now after having read and somewhat digested the new errata, and hopefully not belaboring the point, Heavy smoke was the primary design rationale behind the small missile launchers, well that and hopefully not take up too much mass. I do realize that the Heavy Flamers are a "flavorful" choice ( and a challenge from Worktroll :) ), though I couldn't make the ER Flamers work for me, the Plasma Rifle seemed to work well. ( and someone accusing me of heresy :) ) In nómine Pátris, et Fílii,  et Spirítus Sancti. Amen....



« Last Edit: 19 February 2017, 23:58:49 by tomaddamz »
Saying that because the equipment isn't up-to-the-minute, bleeding-edge tech therefore not a threat is like saying an M2 Browning isn't dangerous to modern infantry because it is 100 years old.