Scorpion Tank More Popular Then Scorpion BattleMech?

[SCC]

OK something I've noticed recently is that people seem to bring up the Scorpion tank more then they do the 'Mech. So is the 'Mech just that bad? Or is the tank some sort of baseline? Or something else?

[Maelwys]

Well, the original Scorpion Mech as nothing really special, its fluff made it sort of "eh" in an IC way, and it was a Quad which drives some people away. Its also a Project Phoenix Mech, which means OOCly it was hard to find for a while, and another hit ICly was that it was rare, and thus destroyed.

The Scorpion Combat vehicle on the other hand has the advantage of being cheap and produced in many places. Its cheap and common enough that even bandits can field platoons of them. And its cheap enough in terms of BV that you can almost use them as a fix for rounding errors.

[ActionButler]

The Scorpion Quad also has the unenviable task of trying to outshine some of the best mechs in the game.  When the Scorpion was one of the only medium mech options, it had to compete for space with the Phoenix Hawk, the Griffin, the Shadowhawk, and the Wolverine.  Don't get me wrong, it is a perfectly fine unit, but one of the basic rules of Battletech is that, if you can pick a Phoenix Hawk, you do pick a Phoenix Hawk.

On the other hand, when the 3026 TRO was first published, the Scorpion tank was one of the few (two?) tracked light vehicles available.  It is also one of the few Battletech tanks that looks like a tank.  Not a big issue for most, but it has always appealed to me for that reason.  It makes it a very easy vehicle to sub minis for and still be in the ballpark. 

[I am Belch II]

I would say so, just because the mech was in that Unseen department,

[JadeHellbringer]

it's tough to say. As a collective design it has a very poor in-universe reputation, and that probably soured a lot of people on ever giving it a real chance in gameplay. Some of them though are solid designs. The SCP-1O was criminally bad, an ER PPC upgrade with ten single heat sinks (though I guess later it got retconned with doubles?), and deserves every bit of scorn heaped upon it. The 12S though? If you want to park enemy tanks, you use a Scorpion 12S. That thing is just fun- fast, able to use partial cover better than a biped, with two excellent weapons for slapping tanks around (or aircraft), and remarkably tough for its size. Does it shake the in-universe reputation? Probably not, but on tabletop it's a beast.

The tank though? Look, Scorpions suck- in a bubble. But it's a numbers unit anyway. The more you have, the scarier things get squared. Two is concerning, four is a pain in the ass, twelve are reason to reconsider an attack, so on. As such, I'd think it has a solid reputation with commanders, if not with crews. In gameplay, as I said, how many you have probably helps dictate how useful they are to you.

[Wrangler]

My limited experience with the Scorpion Quad, is it's fun unit if you know what your doing.  I don't worry about the fluff references. I think it suffered little bit due limitations of Quad.  I like it as a sniper in it's original version, i think it got much better when the Reseen version was introduced.  Heavy PPC version plus LRM10 (aka the SCP-10M) was best, criminally disappointing it fell out production.  12K was pretty good machine too, but i think it's bad idea trying to get into short range in Quad unless it has a Mech Turret on it like the Goliath.

I'm glad the RS:3085 Project Phoenix fixed the SCP-10 version with the Double Heatsinks. At last it's serviceable, but its more sniper machine than generalist.  Its just to vulnerable to getting jumped from behind.

[Weirdo]

As others have pointed out, the Scorpion mech suffers by being associated with some of the best mechs in the game, and not quite measuring up to the bar set by the Grifshaderine trio and the Phoenix Hawk. It's not bad per se, but isn't in the same league as them.

The Scorpion tank...it's a mook. It's always been a mook, always been compared to other mooks, and never pretended to be anything but a mook. And it is a VERY GOOD mook. You don't throw these into battle expecting them to win anything unless facing other mooks. Against player characters, these are what you throw when you want to distract them for the two or three rounds the big bad needs to escape and swear that he'll get you next time, or when they're besieged on all sides, no individual attack is a real threat, but it feels like there's too many to stop everything. A lance or so are also nice to chuck at your PCs of you feel they need a bit more XP(or a bit less ammo) before their next real fight.

[Kit deSummersville]

The SCP-1O was criminally bad, an ER PPC upgrade with ten single heat sinks (though I guess later it got retconned with doubles?)

It was an error in a time before the internet when it was tough to get errata out there. I was lucky to pick up the errata at a con. I think I still have it somewhere....

[Kovax]

As has been noted, the SCP-1N wasn't "bad", it just had the misfortune to be an average "specialized" design in a weight bracket with several exceptional competitors.  As a hit-and-run sniper, it was sufficiently fast, and lethal enough, but its infighting capabilities were seriously handicapped by the lack of a torso-twist option and 100% forward facing armament.  Since it was part of the Unseen issue, but without the dedicated following that a few of the other unseen had acquired, it was simply avoided and all-but forgotten.

The tank, on the other hand, is nothing spectacular either, but cheap and reasonably effective for the cost, BV, and tonnage.  It's "tank-looking" enough to substitute most modern AFVs in its place on the table, if you don't have enough (or any) of the proper miniatures.  You probably won't take over the universe with a force of Scorpions, but you'll end up having to garrison most of that universe with them, because of cost considerations.

[Don Lunardi]

Interestingly enough, the TRO:3039U does have a "Wendall" variant listed that showed promise for the period, swapping out the PPC for a Large Laser and an additional two tons of Armor.  I would argue that this is an improvement not just in terms of protection (now more comparable to the other unseen 55 tonners), but in terms of 'sting' given that the LL and SRM are far more complimentary for close in brawling whereas the PPC's min range compromised its accuracy when the missiles were at their best.  Or, you could hang back at medium/long range for the LL throwing shots down range while running full tilt for zero heat build up assuming average environmental conditions and lack of inferno hits/engine damage, whereas the standard -1N would eventually need to break off for a round of cooling off.

Could easily see this being a canon Marik variant, especially since both the Merc who used it was a member of Smithson's Chinese Bandits (a long standing House Marik retainer) and their lack of PPCs during this period.  Usage is similar to that of a Wolverine-6M shooting n' scooting, just with more land speed in place of jumping about

[JadeHellbringer]

Interestingly enough, the TRO:3039U does have a "Wendall" variant listed that showed promise for the period, swapping out the PPC for a Large Laser and an additional two tons of Armor.  I would argue that this is an improvement not just in terms of protection (now more comparable to the other unseen 55 tonners), but in terms of 'sting' given that the LL and SRM are far more complimentary for close in brawling whereas the PPC's min range compromised its accuracy when the missiles were at their best.  Or, you could hang back at medium/long range for the LL throwing shots down range while running full tilt for zero heat build up assuming average environmental conditions and lack of inferno hits/engine damage, whereas the standard -1N would eventually need to break off for a round of cooling off.

Could easily see this being a canon Marik variant, especially since both the Merc who used it was a member of Smithson's Chinese Bandits (a long standing House Marik retainer) and their lack of PPCs during this period.  Usage is similar to that of a Wolverine-6M shooting n' scooting, just with more land speed in place of jumping about

Never noticed that thing before, but yeah, that's pretty handy actually. Means having to get a little closer to the enemy, where quads tend to struggle, but I'm okay with that sacrifice for the increased protection and heat management. Good find, I'll have to try this out sometime. You win a cookie!

[Kit deSummersville]

Do I get a cookie for designing it?  O:-)

[JadeHellbringer]

Do I get a cookie for designing it?  O:-)

I'm not made of cookies!  ;D

[Liam's Ghost]

Do I get a cookie for designing it?  O:-)

Where's the twin autoloading mortars and sperry-browning machineguns the first Mechwarrior PC game promised me?  :P

[Daemion]

It's too bad the Scorpion Mech and the quad in general were not the initial attempts at Mech Construction by the houses when the Hegemony unveiled the SpaceMan Mackie.

I would have loved for that to have been a thing that eventually fell by the wayside, but with oodles of numbers on hand that they were treated like walking tanks.

Would have preferred that much like the Trooper/Flea, too. Boxy Mechs that were nothing more than pilot compartments with legs and weapons for arms.

Then you see the shift toward more humanoid designs as physical combat becomes a key feature of Mech Combat.

But, that's just a dream.

Thing about the SCP-1N, it really could have used some extra variants so that you could field an integrated team. The 1N is a sniper, and a good one once it's parked. An LRM 5 to replace the SRM 6, and you have a true, dedicated sniper, with a tone to add either a heat sink or better armor.

Someone already mentioned the Large Laser mod from a unique pilot. Viola. You have a tank platoon with team members providing some unique roles.

edit: I actually liked the Scorpion Mech, and am disappointed that it got the in-universe treatment that it did.

[Don Lunardi]

It's too bad the Scorpion Mech and the quad in general were not the initial attempts at Mech Construction by the houses when the Hegemony unveiled the SpaceMan Mackie.

Damn, all these long years, and I've never looked at the Mackie in that light. 

Well then...any chance we can retcon Bowie Industries into having obtained a production license for their Terra location?

_{All we need then is a Nimakachi branch plant on nearby Mars cranking out Spiders...}

[Daryk]

I think another factor is how much easier it is to upgrade an AC/5 than a PPC to anything better.  I know I'm not the only one to have come up with a faster, better armed Scorpion tank.  Compare that to the number of folks improving the 'mech...

[Giovanni Blasini]

I always thought quads like the Scorpion and Goliath should have the option to carry infantry bays, personally.  And, yeah, both strike me as looking like what you might expect to see someone converting a tank or tank destroyer to a 'Mech to look like early in the history of BattleMechs.

The large laser Scorpion is a lot of fun, though. :)

[Charlie Tango]

I actually really like one of the original variants of the Scorpion tank, where the AC is replaced by a pair of SRM6 racks.   It's a little more BV-wise but setting a lance or even just a pair of those as cheap bodyguards for fire-support units works surprisingly well.

[JadeHellbringer]

I actually really like one of the original variants of the Scorpion tank, where the AC is replaced by a pair of SRM6 racks.   It's a little more BV-wise but setting a lance or even just a pair of those as cheap bodyguards for fire-support units works surprisingly well.

THIS. I'm a big fan as well, fantastic unit in any era. Cheap as hell (in both monetary and BV terms), and able to park an enemy's armor just as well as a more modern and expensive unit. They're also handy for incendiary work with inferno warheads (they were especially nasty under the old BMR inferno rules) and for dropping smoke if your group allows it. There's not many more cost-effective vehicles in Battletech than a Scorpion (SRM). Good call, CT!

EDIT: In fact... I have an idea...

..aaaaand finito! http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57164.msg1314856#msg1314856

[Tymers Realm]

"You laugh now, but this thing took work- when it arrived it was nothing but several armor plates, a cannon, instructions in Swedish, and an allen wrench..."

Considering the tank in question, this has to be about the most apt comment ever associated with said tank...

[JadeHellbringer]

Considering the tank in question, this has to be about the most apt comment ever associated with said tank...

Second-most. Right behind "Seriously? There's no ****** way, sir."

[Daryk]

Here's an example of what I was talking about when I mentioned ease of upgrading the tank: Yet Another PPC Scorpion.

[ActionButler]

Grifshaderine

I am going to be exceedingly disappointed if TRO 3250 doesn't include this and a Warauderman. 

[glitterboy2098]

The Grifshaderine should be an Omni.   ;)

And it occurs to me that with the tech of the 3100's you could do a Scorpion IIC as a Quadvee and confuse everyone as to which scorpion you are upgrading.

[TimmyTheNerd]

Personally I love Scorpion Tanks. It's one of the reasons I own four of them and plan on buying at least another six more. My three favorite variants, which I've had the most luck with, are the LRM, MRM and ML. I've tried the other variants but they always tend to die quickly before they can do anything. The LRM and MRM have been my most deadly thus far. Originally, before I was told the limits for the campaign, I had intended to bring four Scorpion Tanks, two LRM Carriers and one Ontos as my starting force. Sadly, I was informed about the 200 ton weight limit, no more than 4 mechs and/or vehicles and the required 1 light and 1 medium. I was sad that day. Might talk to the GM again and see if maybe my Lance can be a little bigger if I bring nothing but vehicles and play as a 'Tank Commander' instead of a Lance Commander.

This is the first time I've heard of a Scorpion BattleMech, so I can't really give an opinion on it.

[StoneRhino]

I haven't really heard much about the mech versus the tank's popularity. But, if you look at the tank on it's own it is cheap, small, and simple. That alone is going to get it a decent amount of attention. Quad mechs do not seem to be that popular, not likely because people hate them, but likely rarely used.

[Simon Landmine]

This is the first time I've heard of a Scorpion BattleMech, so I can't really give an opinion on it.

Which pretty much says it all ...

I suspect the lack of renown may have something to do with the combination of being a 3025 medium overshadowed by the Grifshaderine, an early quad, and uncomplimentary fluff text - all of which militate against it being selected often, which in turn reduces notoriety, which in turn ... etc.

As compared to probably the cheapest 'tank-like' tank.

[Kovax]

Take a company of Scorpion tanks, include one SRM variant in each lance, and swap the remaining standard models in one lance with the LRM variant for longer reach and indirect fire support.  That gives you a fairly effective battle group that can engage almost anything of similar BV or cost and at least put up a respectable fight, with parts commonality.

That's six AC/5s and three LRM racks at long range, and three pairs of SRM-6 racks coming into play at closer ranges, plus a heap of MGs, for about the cost of a heavy Battlemech.  Granted, the individual crewman's survival rate may be somewhat reduced for the tankers compared to the MechWarrior, since the 'Mech is more likely to withdraw with damage after taking out a couple of tanks.

[Daemion]

Which pretty much says it all ...

I suspect the lack of renown may have something to do with the combination of being a 3025 medium overshadowed by the Grifshaderine, an early quad, and uncomplimentary fluff text - all of which militate against it being selected often, which in turn reduces notoriety, which in turn ... etc.

As compared to probably the cheapest 'tank-like' tank.

Well, let's not forget that it was also an unseen design.