Author Topic: Which Vehicle Comes Closest To Being As Effective As a "mech" of same weight?  (Read 5714 times)

Demon55

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SHILTRON PRIME VS O-BAKEMONO . Both have 2 Arrow IV launchers and medium lasers but the vehicle has 2 tons more ammo and a C3 Master computer. The downside is the vehiclr is wheeled with all the problems that comes with that.

I want to see that fight!

Going back to the original question.  Yes vehicles can be as effective as mechs depending on the situation and terrain.  But the game is mech centric so mechs will generally have the advantage.  Also going mano i mano with a machine of the same weight is often silly. 

Railan Sradac

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I'm of the opinion that due to how vulnerable vehicles are to motive crits, the only roles in which they can stand on equal ground to 'Mechs are the ones where they either don't get shot at, or don't mind being immobilized. That usually only ends up being fire support; most of the vehicles I bring are of the "pile of guns (and sometimes armour) with tracks" persuasion. Gurteltier, Ajax, Challenger, DI Morgan (particularly the LRM variety), Schiltron, Vali, are the ones that appear in my forces most often.

I do also use lighter vehicles, some hovers and VTOLs, and I'm experimenting with WiGEs. I've recently been pretty disappointed with the heavy-class tracked/wheeled vehicles, I feel they sacrifice far too much and end up being laughable compared to 'Mechs of similar size and role. (I've had little luck with my Hell's Horses Eris MBT recently, and the Enyo hasn't been doing great either.) I do prefer to use fast, jumping lights/mediums for interception, reconnaissance, and the like, as they're a lot more difficult to cripple than VTOLs or hovers.

doulos05

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The note about crippling hovers is definitely a concern. I play AtB these days, so I can easily maneuver one of my mechs into being a better target for Princess on the round my Saladin is making a pass. If I were playing a human, I wouldn't run a Saladin. In that case, I'd also favor the blocks of armor bristling with guns approach. With the additional caveat that they have to be Large Laser ranged or greater. It's far to easy to get tracked right at the outset and have your braces of Medium lasers be absolutely useless the whole game.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Kovax

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That's why I have a soft spot for hovers like the Saracen, Scimitar, or Drillson, which can hit from longer ranges while keeping their own to-be-hit numbers through the roof.  Either the opponent needs to waste most of its fire (either ammo or heat sink capacity) on bad odds shots with a few big guns, which means that it's NOT using those guns to shoot at my 'Mechs, or else it has to dedicate fast 'Mechs to get into better ranges, which cost a lot more than my units they're attempting to deter or destroy.  MOST of my Saracens and Scimitars come home under their own power after the battle, and the majority of the rest are recoverable after being immobilized and abandoned.

When you field a Saladin, the THREAT of using it is often far more valuable than what you gain by actually using it.

doulos05

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When you field a Saladin, the THREAT of using it is often far more valuable than what you gain by actually using it.

Tell that to my 2nd Recon Lance. Every mech they're driving was captured after getting legged by my Saladin.
I mean, it's not like once you having something in low Earth orbit you can stick a gassy astronaut on the outside after Chili Night and fart it anywhere in the solar system.

Hellraiser

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When you field a Saladin, the THREAT of using it is often far more valuable than what you gain by actually using it.
Aint that the truth.
I kept a Preta-Dom at bay w/ a Precision loaded Saladin one time when it really wanted to get into my backfield & eat the 4 LRM carriers raining down hell on the rest of its Level-II
Don't think I even fired a shot,  just made sure it was always in danger of a back stab if it didn't get lucky & win initiative 2-3 turns in a row, and that just isn't very likely

Tell that to my 2nd Recon Lance. Every mech they're driving was captured after getting legged by my Saladin.
Clearly they got too close.
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Kovax

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The Saladin is to be feared, but in turn it has to fear almost everything else on the table, because its thin armor and vulnerable air skirts leave it at the mercy of the dice gods any time it comes into gun range.

I'll see your Saladin and raise you one Harasser (that has the tools to easily eat that Saladin for a snack and spit out the bones)....or a Saracen that not only can deliver multiple SRM shots, each with a chance of immobilizing that Saladin, or deliver LRM rounds from outside the Saladin's firing range, but can survive a hit in return on most locations, where the Saladin only gets ONE chance per turn at immobilizing the Saracen, not 3-4.
« Last Edit: 04 May 2017, 11:51:28 by Kovax »

Hellraiser

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I'll see your Saladin and raise you one Harasser (that has the tools to easily eat that Saladin for a snack and spit out the bones)....or a Saracen that not only can deliver multiple SRM shots, each with a chance of immobilizing that Saladin, or deliver LRM rounds from outside the Saladin's firing range, but can survive a hit in return on most locations, where the Saladin only gets ONE chance per turn at immobilizing the Saracen, not 3-4.

Not really a comparison, that is v/s each other.
But, the Saladin (with or w/o Precision Ammo) is about keeping Fast Moving Mechs on their toes.

All the Harasser/Saracen is going to do is get shot up if it tries to stop a Pixie-3PL from flanking your LRM boat.

I LOVE me some Saracen, but its for a completely different kind of mission.

How I use the above mentioned trio.

Saladin:  Keep the flankers off your Firesupport with threats of the AC20 delegging/backstabbing them.

Harasser:  Attack other Vehicles, Infantry, maybe Bug sized Mechs, or make your own end run against enemy fire support units.

Saracen:  Shoot & fade against slower units w/ the LRMs at movement mods that make you unhittable by return fire at long range.  And have some backup SRMS to do the same thing as the Harasser in a pinch.

But I think we've drifted quite a bit off topic here.
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Kovax

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Not really a comparison, that is v/s each other.
I'd have to agree, it's a "paper, rock, scissors" deal, where each piece has something it does well, but is vulnerable in some other way.  This is true to some extent with most 'Mech designs, but far more true with vehicles, which tend to be more highly optimized for a specific role.

Tying this back into the original topic, a vehicle can often be VERY competitive with a 'Mech at a specific role, but the 'Mech is generally far more versatile, and will generally shred an equivalent vehicle if that vehicle is operating out of its role, regardless of whether the 'Mech is working within its own role or not.

House Davie Merc

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Has the Partisan LRM variant REALLY not been named yet ?

4 turreted LRM-15s with 12 rounds each available as level 1/
3025 era tech that's widely available ?   YES PLEASE !

Combine Partisan LRM variants  ( AKA Party vans ) with cheap infantry
for indirect fire fun at a low cost . ( both BV and C-Bill )

I honestly can't believe more people don't field these things !

Daryk

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LRM Goblins are cheaper, fit in light vehicle bays, and can carry the infantry themselves, meaning you don't need APCs...

Dayton3

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In terms of matching tonnage,   wouldn't 4 Savannah Masters (20 tons & 4 medium lasers) totally overwhelm almost any 20 ton 3025 era 'mech?

Daryk

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True, but that's not a one on one comparison.  Swarms have been discussed to death around here...

Firesprocket

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Has the Partisan LRM variant REALLY not been named yet ?
Probably hasn't been mentioned because on its own it isn't going to be as effective as a mech of the same tonnage.  It doesn't have the armor to survive an encounter going one on one with a mech.  The majority of 80 mechs can and do have more armor that can and will take more than 3 or 4 hits.

LRM Goblins are cheaper, fit in light vehicle bays, and can carry the infantry themselves, meaning you don't need APCs...
And it also has twice the armor or the Partisan.  That makes it fairly respectable taking on a mech of similar weight on its own.  I think that most 45 ton mechs are going to outclass it and eventually kill a Goblin.  Two LRM-10s though are nothing to sneeze at when you are 45 tons.  The Goblin will out range and outgun anything that same size or smaller though outside of a LRM Hetzer.

Frabby

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In the early days, tanks tended to be small, rarely exceeding 50 tons. The Galleon, Scorpion and Vedette were the yardstick designs. Smart heavy designs like the Rommel/Patton then pushed the envisioned envelope of vehicles vs. 'Mechs, I believe. The fusion-powered Manticore indeed can see eye to eye with heavy 'Mechs, though it was presented as a rare outlier.
Slow, lumbering monstrosities like the Behemoth, LRM-(or what-have-you)-Carriers or Demolisher can only be described as niche combatants, and tactically amount to turrets. I've yet to see such vehicles mounting a successful attack. (I've had good success against Clan forces, but was exploiting their zellbrigen tenets and thus wouldn't credit the vehicles.)
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Dayton3

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It seems to me that basically "one on one" vehicles will almost always wind up second best but when matched up "lance on lance" four tanks against four mechs if you carefully get tanks of complementary capabilities (like long and short range combinations) that your tanks in terms of mass stand  much better chance of matching up well against   the  'mechs.

Hellraiser

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It seems to me that basically "one on one" vehicles will almost always wind up second best but when matched up "lance on lance" four tanks against four mechs if you carefully get tanks of complementary capabilities (like long and short range combinations) that your tanks in terms of mass stand  much better chance of matching up well against   the  'mechs.

A favorite tactic of mine is to use some Zombie-Jumper mechs  (Grasshopper / Wolverine-6M) to hold the line in front of your vehicles.

Then use massed gunboats & high speed strikers  (roles that vehicles shine in) to hammer the enemy, meanwhile the mechs take forever to die & crush kick/medlas to death anything attempting to get at your gunboats.

« Last Edit: 19 May 2017, 22:46:31 by Hellraiser »
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Kovax

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Hellraiser gives a fine example of where vehicles CAN do as well as a 'Mech in their own niche roles.  The 'Mechs stand up front and take (and return) punishment, while some of the more specialized vehicles provide serious fire support and others provide high-speed strike/recon/harassment capability.  As long as you have the 'Mechs to provide the protection and versatility that the overall command may require, the vehicles are better able to operate within their specific niche roles.

If/when the overall tactical situation gets flushed down the hopper, the vehicles suddenly become heavily dependent on the 'Mechs to keep them from getting overrun and destroyed while operating out of their intended roles.  An LRM carrier pointing at the enemy from 7-14 hexes away is deadly; an LRM carrier adjacent to an enemy 'Mech that has just outflanked it is as good as dead.

truetanker

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Unless it's clantech LRMs, no minimums.

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Sharpnel

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I'll take an introductory level Manticore against just about any introductory level 60-ton Mech. Those with jump jets are excluded from the fight.
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Kovax

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Curiously, the best thing to take against a 60 ton Manticore would be something on the order of a 20 ton Locust.  If/when the Locust wins initiative, it runs in and stands on the Manticore, kicking it in the physical phase, until the tank is immobilized.  If/when it loses initiative, it opens the distance and goes for the highest possible movement and terrain modifiers.  The Manticore should present a credible threat to most comparable weight 'Mechs, however.

As I've said previously, vehicles can be very competitive while operating in their specific roles, while 'Mechs generally have the versatility to operate reasonably effectively even well outside of their intended roles.  In a 1-on-1 situation, an opponent can often dictate the situation (such as through Initiative) and force the other side to operate outside of its role.

Mixed 'Mech/vehicle formations can utilize the vehicles in their proper roles for far lower cost than a comparable 'Mech, while the 'Mechs provide the flexibility and durability to keep the vehicles alive.

Hellraiser

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Curiously, the best thing to take against a 60 ton Manticore would be something on the order of a 20 ton Locust.  If/when the Locust wins initiative, it runs in and stands on the Manticore, kicking it in the physical phase, until the tank is immobilized.  If/when it loses initiative, it opens the distance and goes for the highest possible movement and terrain modifiers. 

The Turret mounted PPC, & LRMs might make that a much tougher fight than you think.

12 MP for the Locust & 4/6 for the Manticore means its going to get back into Medium or possibly short range of those guns.
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SCC

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Curiously, the best thing to take against a 60 ton Manticore would be something on the order of a 20 ton Locust.  If/when the Locust wins initiative, it runs in and stands on the Manticore, kicking it in the physical phase, until the tank is immobilized.  If/when it loses initiative, it opens the distance and goes for the highest possible movement and terrain modifiers.  The Manticore should present a credible threat to most comparable weight 'Mechs, however.
Off the top of my head I don't think that will work, don't think you can attack something in the same hex as you ever (Unless infantry)

Kovax

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Off the top of my head I don't think that will work, don't think you can attack something in the same hex as you ever (Unless infantry)
You CAN stomp a vehicle in the same hex, but you're not allowed to shoot at it.  As long as the LCT wins initiative, and doesn't fall from a missed kick, the safest place on the map is in the same hex as the vehicle.

If it loses initiative, it's got to rely on terrain to break line-of-sight or at least add some modifiers to its movement, otherwise its 10-12 hex run can be cut down to a mere 6 hexes if the tank goes flat-out after it in the same direction (assuming similar facing).  At basic 4/5 skills, that's a 4 to hit, +4 for the LCT's move, and +2 for the tank's flank speed, for a worst case (for the LCT) 10+ to-hit by the tank, so SOME terrain intervention would typically be needed for the LCT to survive the engagement for more than a few turns.  Against a Demolisher with only 3/6/9 range weapons, I'd chance it with a Locust.  With some clusters of woods to break line-of-sight when convenient, it's quite doable against a Manticore, or other 4/6 speed or slower tank.

Tai Dai Cultist

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It's a shame that mechs aren't allowed to lift tanks' turrets out of sockets, or to flip a hull upside-down.  Silly game balance issues.

SCC

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Curiously, the best thing to take against a 60 ton Manticore would be something on the order of a 20 ton Locust.  If/when the Locust wins initiative, it runs in and stands on the Manticore, kicking it in the physical phase, until the tank is immobilized.  If/when it loses initiative, it opens the distance and goes for the highest possible movement and terrain modifiers.  The Manticore should present a credible threat to most comparable weight 'Mechs, however.

As I've said previously, vehicles can be very competitive while operating in their specific roles, while 'Mechs generally have the versatility to operate reasonably effectively even well outside of their intended roles.  In a 1-on-1 situation, an opponent can often dictate the situation (such as through Initiative) and force the other side to operate outside of its role.

Mixed 'Mech/vehicle formations can utilize the vehicles in their proper roles for far lower cost than a comparable 'Mech, while the 'Mechs provide the flexibility and durability to keep the vehicles alive.
I've been thinking about this some more, and this strategy won't work. First it relies on there being only two units on the board, but assuming that's the case there are more problems. The Locust moves 8/12, but on the turns it loses init and runs away it has to worry about being shot in the back, so say it reserves 2 MP for that, it means the Locust can only move 10 hexes away from the Manticore (Less if rolling maps isn't used) and if the Manticore closes to 8 hexes it can back off next turn and the Locust can't move into it's hex. Or on a turn the Manticore wins init it can abck off, meaning the Locust will have to close for two turns, taking fire the entire time.

Kovax

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I've been thinking about this some more, and this strategy won't work. First it relies on there being only two units on the board, but assuming that's the case there are more problems. The Locust moves 8/12, but on the turns it loses init and runs away it has to worry about being shot in the back, so say it reserves 2 MP for that, it means the Locust can only move 10 hexes away from the Manticore (Less if rolling maps isn't used) and if the Manticore closes to 8 hexes it can back off next turn and the Locust can't move into it's hex. Or on a turn the Manticore wins init it can abck off, meaning the Locust will have to close for two turns, taking fire the entire time.
You're assuming a totally bare, open field.  If there's a patch of woods or hills larger than a hex or two within range, the LCT can run past them, make one turn, and the vehicle probably can't move far enough to get a clear line of sight.  Even if the LCT runs straight away from the vehicle, the back-shots are going to be at 10+ to hit with long-range weapons (PPC, LRM), and a single facing change will prevent a back-shot and still maintain the +4 movement modifier, but allow a 4/6 vehicle to put any LLs or AC/10s into short range.  The LCT can USUALLY survive a 10 point hit from a PPC without losing too much combat effectiveness, so the tank will most likely need to tag it several times to put it down.  Staying at 8 hexes from the 'Mech means harder shots at 11+ to hit (4 base, +2 for medium range, +4 for the 'Mech's move, and +1 for the vehicle's cruise), and staying put means 10+ due to no movement penalty for the tank.

If the vehicle follows the 'Mech any closer, it still can't turn around and get far enough away from the LCT on the next turn to prevent the 'Mech from moving into the vehicle's hex if the tank loses initiative.  If it doesn't follow, the LCT can use its move to loop around to set up a run from behind cover in case it wins initiative on the next turn.  Basically, the tank needs to stay at least 7 hexes away from any usable cover.

Granted, the matchup is not a guaranteed win for the LCT by any means, but given reasonably suitable terrain, I'd put my money on a decent player winning with the Locust.  On a totally level treeless plain, I'd bet on the tank, but all it takes is one lucky stomp attack by the 'Mech that immobilizes the vehicle, or one lucky hit that puts a leg actuator hit on the 'Mech and it's practically over, one way or the other.  Initiative is going to be the deciding factor in a contest between a 20 ton 'Mech and a 60 ton vehicle that's roughly double the price.

Granted, it gets a lot more complicated on a busy field, with other stuff that can shoot at the combatants.
« Last Edit: 13 December 2017, 12:10:21 by Kovax »

SCC

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You're assuming a totally bare, open field.  If there's a patch of woods or hills larger than a hex or two within range, the LCT can run past them, make one turn, and the vehicle probably can't move far enough to get a clear line of sight.
Depends upon how soon the LCT doglegs. If it doglegs before moving 5 hexes it's useless and under 8 is still pretty bad for it, this tactic only works if it can dogleg after moving 9 or more hexes.

Even if the LCT runs straight away from the vehicle, the back-shots are going to be at 10+ to hit with long-range weapons (PPC, LRM), and a single facing change will prevent a back-shot and still maintain the +4 movement modifier, but allow a 4/6 vehicle to put any LLs or AC/10s into short range.  The LCT can USUALLY survive a 10 point hit from a PPC without losing too much combat effectiveness, so the tank will most likely need to tag it several times to put it down.  Staying at 8 hexes from the 'Mech means harder shots at 11+ to hit (4 base, +2 for medium range, +4 for the 'Mech's move, and +1 for the vehicle's cruise), and staying put means 10+ due to no movement penalty for the tank.
On a turn the LCT runs if the tank chooses to cruise for 5 the range is 6, so that's 9+ for the PPC, 10+ for the LRMS and 11+ for the ML and SRM. And the LCT can't really survive a PPC hit and remain in a battle ready state, on every location but the CT it goes internal.

Oh, and that 9+ to-hit is also what the LCT will need to make a kicking attack the next turn.

RoundTop

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Oh, and that 9+ to-hit is also what the LCT will need to make a kicking attack the next turn.

Let's do some math:

5 (piloting) + 2 (Running) + 2 (Most optimistic modifier for the tank, likely a 1 or 0) - 2 (Kick)
=7 for the locust to make that kick, more likely it will even be a 6 or 5.
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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Kovax

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On a turn the LCT runs if the tank chooses to cruise for 5 the range is 6...
How does a tank with a 4/6 movement profile cruise for 5 hexes?  That's Flank speed, whether you use the 6th movement point or not.

The funny part is, I'm a big fan of the Manticore, and have a pretty good idea of what they're capable of.  I'm more concerned about losing one to a fast scout (particularly one with a ****-load of SRMs) than I am about taking on a heavy 'Mech with it.  My last MekHQ Merc unit fielded a full lance of them, after they were immobilized and captured by my unit, and half of those were taken out of the fight by a green Locust pilot.
« Last Edit: 15 December 2017, 10:00:58 by Kovax »