Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 24644 times)

roosterboy

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #720 on: 12 January 2018, 19:33:09 »
Whenever I see the Galaxy-class, I have two immediate and visceral reactions:

1. My god, that’s an ugly ship.

2. I picture beardless, collarless season 1 Riker and then desperately try to hold down the vomit. That was... not a good look for Frakes.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #721 on: 12 January 2018, 21:26:39 »
How are you on other ships of that aesthetic, like the Nebula or Challenger?
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #722 on: 12 January 2018, 22:13:27 »
How are you on other ships of that aesthetic, like the Nebula or Challenger?

Well, I had to look both of those up on Memory Alpha because I had only the vaguest recollection of the Nebula (kinda sorta recalling it as a TNG-ified version of the Miranda) and no idea at all what the Challenger looked like.

Of the three designs, the Nebula is the least worst. I still don't like the squashed look of the primary hull or the oval saucer and I absolutely detest that style of nacelle. But I don't get a visceral hatred of the design like I do with the Galaxy. It might also be some residual good feeling since the Miranda is one of my absolute favorite Starfleet designs.

The Challenger is just too damn silly looking to hate on. It'd be like mocking some poor talentless kid's macaroni art.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #723 on: 13 January 2018, 00:07:36 »
Of course, even on its best days, the Galaxy-class can never hold a candle to a Constitution-refit. 8)

Agreed...

My top three Feddie ships would likely be, in no particular order...

Constitution-class (refit)
Excelsior-class (particularly the refit version, like the Lakota or Enterprise-B)
Ambassador-class

Honorable mention to the Intrepid-class...

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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #724 on: 13 January 2018, 02:37:37 »
Of course, even on its best days, the Galaxy-class can never hold a candle to a Constitution-refit. 8)
[/quote]

Well that's because even though I like the look and feel of DISCO, the best Trek aesthetic is still the TOS movies
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #725 on: 13 January 2018, 04:25:04 »
Gotta pledge my love for the Soyuz class, even if I can only pretend those aren't 400mm gun turrets.

marauder648

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #726 on: 13 January 2018, 04:45:24 »
With regards to STD, I...enjoyed it, sure there's some things that make me grind years off my molars, but there's one thing that really sticks out as being just plain bad.

The makeup of the Klingons.

I was watching this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFkZgxtlcws

And got to thinking.  Now I love Babylon 5, but its one of those shows that when it comes to its digital effects has aged badly, but its makeup, especially after season 1 remains top notch. THe show's old now, but if you look at the Drazi, their faces are quite heavily made up with a fair bit of prosthesis on it, but they are able to emote fully and display a wide range of emotions. Why the hell all these years later, are the Klingons from STD as emotive as a desk chair compared to the Drazi which are what...20 odd years old now? Just what did the STD folks do wrong, was it a case of too much prosthesis to try make the Klingons look super different or was it something else?

Even in older shows like DS9 where you had folks with large amount of prosthesis like the Ferengi or the Cardassians, the were able to emote and move a damn sight better than the Klingons of STD did.  Quark and co talked a LOT with their body language, and used hand gestures and arm movments to emphasise points and parts of their conversation that Italians would understand (although our Meditteranian friends can flag down planes with their arm movements :p ).

With Cardassians their heavy prosthesis was countered by some truly superb actors, Garak and Dukat were superb, and the makeup they were was thick but it still let them emote.  Indeed, the most emotive thing about them was the actors who really sold the characters.
The STD Klingons on the other hand from the episodes I watched just tended to stand there, arms hanging at their sides and didn't even seem to use much body language, which was such an important part of DS9's Klingons who, again, were often very animated when they talked.

Another good one with heavy makeup was the Narn. They had big outfits on and everything but again, retained their expressiveness despite a lot of makeup and prosthesis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NsdQzoIXIE

and some more closeups of Narm makeup. Of course this role was done by a SUPERB actor, and the power duet of Londo and G'kar was probably one of the best in the show but still, excellent scene and it shows the advantage of makeup and a small amount of prosthetics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9v1jJ_ATec

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #727 on: 13 January 2018, 05:57:05 »
Heh.  Yeah I noticed that about the Klingons right away too.  I've brought it up myself a few times and I even went so far to say as it sounds like the actors are in physical pain trying to deliver their lines at times it is that bad.

And yeah you can see they did go overboard if you watch the fight scenes.  The Klignons do need help from their opponents because their lack of range of motion is noticeable even to my eye.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #728 on: 13 January 2018, 06:32:49 »
See, I'm not sure if this is a prosthethic issue or a stylistic choice.  Mary Chieffo has spoken Klingon once or twice on After Trek, and sounded pretty much the same as when she's in makeup, and her and Kenneth Williams' lines in English don't seem to have the same 'problem'.

It's also worth noting that a significant amount of dialogue in a TV show will always be re-recorded in post, so if the producers thought there was a problem with how the Klingons sounded, they could just re-record all their dialogue.
« Last Edit: 13 January 2018, 08:05:05 by Lorcan Nagle »
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ColBosch

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #729 on: 13 January 2018, 07:04:13 »
Well, duh. Babylon 5 > Star Trek. Forever.

Edit: When Star Trek - any Star Trek - has anything approaching this scene, call me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhIAWyGQW8Q
« Last Edit: 13 January 2018, 07:06:43 by ColBosch »
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #730 on: 13 January 2018, 07:07:07 »
Well, duh. Babylon 5 > Star Trek. Forever.

It is known
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ColBosch

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #731 on: 13 January 2018, 07:54:29 »
Seriously, until Star Trek can bring that level of drama, pathos, and wonder, it will always just be mass-market entertainment to me. That seems to be what its owners and developers want, so I'll give it no more - and no less - consideration. It doesn't matter if Discovery matches TOS, or pre-TOS, because it's just not meant to be particularly meaningful. It's just a show, with nothing more to say than "hey, check this out." Same as all the rest of Trek.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #732 on: 13 January 2018, 08:10:00 »
Seriously, until Star Trek can bring that level of drama, pathos, and wonder, it will always just be mass-market entertainment to me. That seems to be what its owners and developers want, so I'll give it no more - and no less - consideration. It doesn't matter if Discovery matches TOS, or pre-TOS, because it's just not meant to be particularly meaningful. It's just a show, with nothing more to say than "hey, check this out." Same as all the rest of Trek.
Yes the average level of B5 is a lot higher then that of ST. When I think of the good of ST I can only think of a few episodes of TNG and DS9.
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marauder648

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #733 on: 13 January 2018, 08:35:14 »
I think the big thing is that B5 had an interconnected story, and it was very much a character driven thing.  Sure Season 1 was..well...a bit iffy, and then season 5..oh well..but still through it all, the interplay between the characters in it is what gave B5 its biggest strength.

DS9 did this with the Dominion war and got a lot better for it, instead of being new molicule day or Bjoran persicution complex episode 55195.  Once they got a story going, it got very good, and you had the undeniable power trio of Miles, Julian and Garak as well as superb roles from Odo, Quark and many others.  Although Ben's voice modulation did get worse UnTiL HE WaS taLkinG LIkE thIs HAlF thE tImE bless him.  Seriously, what was it with him and putting random emphasis ON words when HE was TALking.

But as good as they were.  G'kar, Londo, Vir, Sherridan, Ivanova, Delenn and many more, are just better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jli3ruqWYlc is superb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXkIuVLnsFE&t=2s - the bit where you see the Agamemnon charging forwards, heavy large lasers and heavy pulse cannons firing at maximum rate as the music soars.  Hairs go up on the back of my neck and arms every time.

and this scene...still one of the best i've ever seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2_tNh5q-4M



« Last Edit: 13 January 2018, 08:38:39 by marauder648 »
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Sharpnel

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #734 on: 13 January 2018, 08:40:43 »
The best DS9 episodes usually involved Garak in some detail
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ColBosch

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #735 on: 13 January 2018, 08:46:17 »
DS9 was the best of the Star Trek series, to me. Of course, it was built on the proposal for what would become Babylon 5, and had to compete against it, but it had some fantastic episodes. It's too bad Voyager dashed those hopes. You know, I was invited to pitch scripts for Enterprise, but they were ignored because Braga had his ideas for what Star Trek should be.
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #736 on: 13 January 2018, 09:01:31 »
Although Ben's voice modulation did get worse UnTiL HE WaS taLkinG LIkE thIs HAlF thE tImE bless him.  Seriously, what was it with him and putting random emphasis ON words when HE was TALking.

Avery Brooks is primarily a stage actor, and as such had different training in terms of how to read lines and pitch his voice.  Patrick Stewart too,  of course - though his training was different to Brooks' and gave arguably better results in the role.  Oddly,  a lot of B5's cast were either cast from theatre or were known as much for their stage and screen acting.
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marauder648

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #737 on: 13 January 2018, 09:06:05 »
The best DS9 episodes usually involved Garak in some detail

Truth!  Usually with some Quark thrown in for shenanigans, or Bashir for ambiguioulsly gay bromance tension :p (And I say this as a gay man :p )
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #738 on: 13 January 2018, 09:07:56 »
Voyager had its moments, and it had the Doctor who was superb, and of all the charcters, was the one who grew the most.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #739 on: 13 January 2018, 09:08:56 »
but they were ignored because Braga had his ideas for what Star Trek should be.
And he was wrong
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #740 on: 13 January 2018, 12:22:36 »
DS9 got better over the years. It was start off slow, and got better and better. TNG started off slow was really awesome about season 3 to 5 and went down after that. Voyager it was tough to pick a great season. Voyager seemed like it had great episodes mixed in with some crap episodes.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #741 on: 13 January 2018, 12:34:31 »
I wonder...what was DS9's follicle moment? TNG had Riker's face, B5 had Delenn's scalp...what hair can be used to mark DS9's turn for the better?

Voyager seemed like it had great episodes mixed in with some crap episodes.

It is a truth, universally accepted, that Voyager peaked with the wrestling episode. :)
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Ruger

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #742 on: 13 January 2018, 13:14:22 »
DS9 was the best of the Star Trek series, to me.

QFT. For a long time, it was the only Star Trek series that I had the full thing on DVD (well, other than the set for TAS)...I have since gotten Enterprise and TOS on DVD, as well as all the movies...I still would like to get the remaining 6 seasons of Voyager (I only have the first, and I believe it had 7 total seasons, IIRC)...

Oh, and put me in the camp of finding the story of B5 superior than most of Star Trek...

Now, the question is where would you guys place Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda against these?

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #743 on: 13 January 2018, 13:20:43 »
I wonder...what was DS9's follicle moment? TNG had Riker's face, B5 had Delenn's scalp...what hair can be used to mark DS9's turn for the better?

Sisko's beard


For Andromeda, I prefer the first two seasons, after that it turned into the Kevin Sorbo show.  What would have been good is an episode where Captain Hunt had to do a diplomatic reception on a planet, and the rest of th crew had to take Andromeda out for what seemed to be a minor incident, but they have to use their skills to solve issues.  Show it as Captain Sorbo has encouraged their skills and abilities so they can stand on their own, instead of needing him for everything.

Isn't that what good leaders do, surround themselves with good people, and encourage their growth in capabilities?  A person who is a lousy leader is encouraged to at least organize people, someone who has trouble trusting others learns to open up, someone skilled learns how to teach others, aso.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #744 on: 13 January 2018, 13:35:56 »
I wonder...what was DS9's follicle moment? TNG had Riker's face, B5 had Delenn's scalp...what hair can be used to mark DS9's turn for the better?

Sisko shaving his head and growing a beard.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #745 on: 13 January 2018, 16:04:54 »
3rd Season of DS9 brought in the Defiant while 3rd season of B5 brought in the White Star.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #746 on: 13 January 2018, 16:16:24 »
Avery Brooks is primarily a stage actor, and as such had different training in terms of how to read lines and pitch his voice.  Patrick Stewart too,  of course - though his training was different to Brooks' and gave arguably better results in the role.  Oddly,  a lot of B5's cast were either cast from theatre or were known as much for their stage and screen acting.

Isn't that fundamentally William Shatner's problem and he just never adjusted? Well that and some old (bad) radio drama habits you can still see in Twilight Zone and Dragnet.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #747 on: 13 January 2018, 16:44:52 »
I'm pretty sure that William Shatner has always played himself.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #748 on: 13 January 2018, 16:52:35 »
Isn't that fundamentally William Shatner's problem and he just never adjusted? Well that and some old (bad) radio drama habits you can still see in Twilight Zone and Dragnet.

For a specific definition of problem, yeah.  Shatner's delivery of lines would work a lot better with dialogue written to match the cadence.  Theatre, especially prior to the last century was written with a different sense of delivery, even ignoring the changes in how English was written and spoken in different centuries, and that plays are often translated into English in different eras too.

But Shatner won two Emmies and a Golden Globe (and yes, two Razzies too), so it's ultimately worked for him
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #749 on: 13 January 2018, 17:59:47 »
3rd Season of DS9 brought in the Defiant while 3rd season of B5 brought in the White Star.

I always liked the Defiant much more than the White Star. It just come off as a much more fierce gunship.