TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[monbvol]

These are unique works. They are inspired by the originals, but are new art. You are allowed to be inspired by other art - almost everything is.

And of course they are designed to be the new unseen - the original artwork can't be used. That does not make them unoriginal. These are designed quite clearly to not be the unseen while capturing the spirit of them - and HG has no copyright on spirit.

If you want to go by their tack - how about the Bushwacker? The Hector? Any of the primitives? The Bombadier, the Hammerhands? The MadCat?

If HG has their way, it's anything defined as "Giant Robot Warrior" that they own if it has any elements of the Macross in it. They need to be shut down on this matter.

   - Shane

IMR/CGL are not being sued for the Bushwacker, Hector, or Hammerhands.

While it is easy for us to perceive Harmony Gold as a despicable villains I find myself actually somewhat agreeing with JenniferinaMAD.

There have been many years where we had the Project Phoenix Art and from what I can see none of that is being contested by Harmony Gold.

So end of the day while we may not like Harmony Gold and there seem to be many ready and willing to sensationalize them into villains, it doesn't mean that they are in the wrong to bring this case or that there is not some merit to the idea that maybe IMR/CGL did poke the bear with the new Classics art.

Which is what Harmony Gold is contesting.  That the new Classic art is too close to the old Macross art.

If I am objective about it I can see IMR/CGL does have some cause for concern because while I can see sufficient differences doesn't mean a judge and jury won't.

So don't get me wrong.  I hope Harmony Gold loses and loses hard.  It is just that the available evidence does suggest this whole mess could have been avoided in the first place if people could have let go of the old Macross art for Battletech and accepted something completely different.  Which is a possible outcome of this situation(that we have to accept new art that is clearly different).

[Acolyte]

IMR/CGL are not being sued for the Bushwacker, Hector, or Hammerhands.

While it is easy for us to perceive Harmony Gold as a despicable villains I find myself actually somewhat agreeing with JenniferinaMAD.

There have been many years where we had the Project Phoenix Art and from what I can see none of that is being contested by Harmony Gold.

So end of the day while we may not like Harmony Gold and there seem to be many ready and willing to sensationalize them into villains, it doesn't mean that they are in the wrong to bring this case or that there is not some merit to the idea that maybe IMR/CGL did poke the bear with the new Classics art.

Which is what Harmony Gold is contesting.  That the new Classic art is too close to the old Macross art.

If I am objective about it I can see IMR/CGL does have some cause for concern because while I can see sufficient differences doesn't mean a judge and jury won't.

So don't get me wrong.  I hope Harmony Gold loses and loses hard.  It is just that the available evidence does suggest this whole mess could have been avoided in the first place if people could have let go of the old Macross art for Battletech and accepted something completely different.  Which is a possible outcome of this situation(that we have to accept new art that is clearly different).

This is fair. Both sides think that this artwork is theirs. That's something to consider, although I don't think that anyone "Poked the Bear" in this case. I think it was a sincere attempt to finally, finally get the "Unseen" issue behind us. Give acceptable new art and let the old go.

I also think the new Sony Movie being discussed has more to do with this happening now than people want to admit.

As to the art, I think it's new and I hope the Jury agrees.

   - Shane

[monbvol]

*nod*

I still suspect it is another vaporware movie just to keep the IP rights active but the timing does suggest that it is a likely motivator for this current issue.

Though seeing how as this process began before March of this year also indicates that indeed the Classics art could be a motivator as well as it takes time to even get to the publicly verifiable March milestone.

Either way it is a matter of some concern and we need to be mindful of our passions, especially on the official forums.

[Acolyte]

*nod*

I still suspect it is another vaporware movie just to keep the IP rights active but the timing does suggest that it is a likely motivator for this current issue.

Though seeing how as this process began before March of this year also indicates that indeed the Classics art could be a motivator as well as it takes time to even get to the publicly verifiable March milestone.

Either way it is a matter of some concern and we need to be mindful of our passions, especially on the official forums.

Maybe, but they lawsuit added the Combat Manuals in last. They started with PGI/HBS and that leads me to believe that the Classics were not the motivating factor. Then considering how long PGI has had those models and no lawsuit makes me very suspicious of the timing.

   - Shane

[monbvol]

*nod*

It is likely that with Hollywood running out of things from the 80's to reboot/bring back it is actually not out of the question that a Robotech movie could actually finally happen and thus indeed be the primary motivator.  Even if it is another vaporware production just to keep the rights active it is likely the primary motivator.

At least for going after PGI and HBS.

That IMR/CGL were roped in at all though is where we have the only real question mark as I cannot find anything publicly available that Harmony Gold are challenging the Project Phoenix artwork, just the Classic artwork.

I'll have to re-check the filings though to be sure, especially for who the Atlas, Locust, and Shadow Hawk claims are actually aimed at.

[Sigil]

Maybe, but they lawsuit added the Combat Manuals in last. They started with PGI/HBS and that leads me to believe that the Classics were not the motivating factor. Then considering how long PGI has had those models and no lawsuit makes me very suspicious of the timing.

   - Shane

The initial in-game release of PGI's Marauder was in Dec. 2015.  Their latest "Unseen", the Marauder IIC released Dec. 2016.  HG filed March 2017.  In any case, it's my understanding that this post: http://catalystgamelabs.tumblr.com/tagged/Warhammer, dated Nov. 2015, was what alerted HG to the existence of the new art although they claimed not to have seen this post until July 2016.  HG initially contacted PGI in July and sent letters to both PGI and HBS in Oct. 2016. 

Sony picked up the rights to Robotech in 2015.  After going through a series of directors, the latest man in this game of musical chairs is Andy Muschietti circa July 2017.  To date, however, I don't believe a single word of the script has been written. 

[Korzon77]

I will be very surprised if a robotech movie is ever made. 1. Because of the whole rights mess--there are plenty of other properties out there where you don't have to ask: Why can't we use stuff from teh first 1/3rd of the source material and 2. Robotech is honestly not that big. 3.  There's enough illwill about HG that it could materially impact the film's success. 4. the failure of the kickstarter. EXALTED got more money than the robotech academy kickstarter got, and that's terrible for what is supposedly a happening property, especialy since HG didn't want to fund it themselves.

[Wrangler]

The general public isn't aware of on the large what wrong with Robotech or it's owners problems.
If a news report comes out, it will depends on how they view HG and rest the companies as well.

[ColBosch]

The general public isn't aware of on the large what wrong with Robotech or it's owners problems.
If a news report comes out, it will depends on how they view HG and rest the companies as well.

This is a good point. Even Sony might not be aware of all the issues behind Robotech. While I still believe that any talk of a new movie is mere IP squatting, it does lead to an interesting possible reason behind the latest lawsuit. Sony would have to update the aesthetics of the Veritechs and Destroids to fit modern sensibilities, live-action realism, and avoid IP infringement outside the US. By preemptively suing PGI/HBS/IMR, Harmony Gold could be trying to avoid the defendants later suing over how close Sony's redesigns are to the "classics!" If so, then it would absolutely shift the tone of the lawsuit to "bad faith."

[NeonKnight]

This is a good point. Even Sony might not be aware of all the issues behind Robotech. While I still believe that any talk of a new movie is mere IP squatting, it does lead to an interesting possible reason behind the latest lawsuit. Sony would have to update the aesthetics of the Veritechs and Destroids to fit modern sensibilities, live-action realism, and avoid IP infringement outside the US. By preemptively suing PGI/HBS/IMR, Harmony Gold could be trying to avoid the defendants later suing over how close Sony's redesigns are to the "classics!" If so, then it would absolutely shift the tone of the lawsuit to "bad faith."

That would make a possible Robotech Movie likely the FIRST major/modern motion picture to NOT have an asian release, due to the IP being owned by someone else overseas.

[abou]

That is an interesting point. What a tricky web we weave.

It might behoove CGL to get its work done on the rest of the Classics to show the differences. Not that they have to show them to us, but between the Archer, Stinger, and Longbow (any others I'm missing?), it would help the case to show the derivations and thus presumed legality of them. We only have one view of the new Archer, which doesn't particularly help.

[Wrangler]

That is an interesting point. What a tricky web we weave.

It might behoove CGL to get its work done on the rest of the Classics to show the differences. Not that they have to show them to us, but between the Archer, Stinger, and Longbow (any others I'm missing?), it would help the case to show the derivations and thus presumed legality of them. We only have one view of the new Archer, which doesn't particularly help.

Makes me think the primitives maybe as close you will get to the having redesigns in some fashion at rate were going.

[ColBosch]

That would make a possible Robotech Movie likely the FIRST major/modern motion picture to NOT have an asian release, due to the IP being owned by someone else overseas.

That's precisely why they'd have to overhaul all the designs. The other aspects are probably safe, as nobody is disputing HG's rights to the actual unique elements of Robotech.

Makes me think the primitives maybe as close you will get to the having redesigns in some fashion at rate were going.

Just as I've said we should avoid undue optimism, we should also try not to be too pessimistic. There are still strong possibilities for the BattleTech side of things to win decisively. The judge could dismiss the case with prejudice, ruling that the claims of infringement are not compelling enough to warrant further action. In the negotiation meetings, the two sides could hammer out some tweaks that would make the new art non-infringing in HG's eyes, or HG could back down if PGI's lawyers continue to play hardball.

These are things that could happen pretty quickly. It's far too early to say how things will go.

[monbvol]

*nod*

And let us not forget that even the best possible outcome of this case as far as HBS, PGI, and IMR/CGL are concerned based on the arguments being made by HBS and PGI's lawyers will likely create such a legal quagmire that we'll probably not see any more Macross/Robotech.

[Luciora]

 Coleco just announced a toy partnership with hg.  The plot thickens.

https://coleco.com/tomorrow/

[ColBosch]

Coleco is still around? Interesting.

[abou]

... not The Onion?

[Giovanni Blasini]

Coleco and Harmony Goa'uld together? It's like the black hole of irrelevant '80s companies.

[Fat Guy]

More interesting timing: https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808

[Juodas Varnas]

More interesting timing: https://www.previewsworld.com/Catalog/MAY171808

So Harmony Gold literally went "Guys, we're totally not just sitting on the IP, not doing anything with it! LOOK!"

[Tymers Realm]

:::groan:::
:::Headdesk:::

sheesh...
I'm not sure what's worse: Another Macross-set Robotech Comic, The crappy-looking Cyclone toy, The fact that Coleco is still around, or That a Coleco-vision console revisit is being developed.
There's so much wrong in @Luciora & @Fat Guy's posts. You would of thought HG would of gotten the message after the Robotech Academy debacle.

[Lorcan Nagle]

That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image

[Ruger]

That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image

I love how that pilot is going to shoot himself in his shoulder or chest with that EP-40 in the fourth picture of that Cyclone toy...  ;D

And yeah, it does look a lot like the one a friend of mine got a convention one time...only A LOT more primitive...

Ruger

[glitterboy2098]

i'm guessing placeholder image.

[Luciora]

I remember seeing those bootlegs in San Francisco chinatown.

[Deadborder]

Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.

But it's being written by a critically acclaimed comic scribe who has a number of high-profile projects in his past including a good amount of well-regarded, independent, creator-owned works. So what the hell he's doing on this book is beyond me.

[Jaim Magnus]

Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.

So, overwriting the old 'Return to Macross' comics? Typcial. Robotech continuity is such a mess. Makes me appreciate Battletech's comprehensive timeline all the more.

[ColBosch]

Yep, it's another Roy Fokker on Macross Island comic, because Robotech media hasn't had enough of that.

But it's being written by a critically acclaimed comic scribe who has a number of high-profile projects in his past including a good amount of well-regarded, independent, creator-owned works. So what the hell he's doing on this book is beyond me.

As has been said, not everyone knows just how ugly Harmony Gold is. And yeah, the more I see of HG's new projects, the more disgusting this lawsuit looks.

[ANS Kamas P81]

That Cyclone looks like the 80s one, so either they're reissuing it or it's a placeholder image

It's not the same as the 80s Mospeada toy, after doing a little digging.  Pretty similar, but there's too many proportion and construction differences.  Looking at the joints of the new toy it makes me think of something in a GI Joe-scaled 3 3/4" (or whatever it is) figure.

Not so great, but there's always the option of ordering from overseas at places like Hobbylink Japan or 1999 Co.  As far as the Macross side of things goes, the merchandising is going gangbusters with some fantastic quality toys for all the parts of the franchise.

[Wrangler]

U know. I think that HG waits few years every so often and use these lawsuits to promote themselves "defend" their intellectual property. What a scam if that true.