Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III

[Maelwys]

It isn't a phenotype in-universe yet, but it isn't a nebulous nothing either: ER3145 gives us AToW stats for TankWarriors.

Sure, but that's the subcaste, not a full phenotype. Page 189 states ""...born after 3106 can also take the TankWarrior subcaste, but only if they also take the Trueborn Trait and choose a MW or standard Elemental Phenotype. (Contrary to reports, a truly distinct TankWarrior Phenotype has yet to emerge from the breeding protocols in place as of 3145.)

You get the Field Aptitude, which is major, but its still just a MW or Elemental put into a difference training schedule. (And thinking about it, I'm not sure the ProtoMech pilots ever get the Field Aptitude swap..might be something to ask about).

[Church14]

You think so? The Bears are waging their war to show that they are worthy to join the League (and also to unite themselves). If the horses cut some part out of the Dominion it might hurt Alaric in the long run. After all which Clan except the Dominion can actually supply "true" Clan warriors to Alaric's league? The Ravens? The Foxes?

The joiners need to have that war go smoothly or it’ll possibly turn RasDom further against the ilClan. I can’t imagine a plebiscite would go well right now, much less after a quagmire that’s 100% the joiners’ fault

[tassa_kay]

Sure, but that's the subcaste, not a full phenotype.

I mean, I literally said that it wasn't the phenotype, LOL. My point is that is wasn't a "nebulous nothing", but something that, at least as things stood for TankWarriors in 3145, does actually exist.

[tassa_kay]

But you absolutely hit the nail on the head with the issues that I'm having currently reading EoT:H. The Horses might as well just be Wolves or Falcons in this book. The thing that made me a fan of the horses originally was the idea of a clan where freebirths, solamha and all caste members were respected, so the tension came less from that, and more from the inherent political divisions within the clan. Which is why its so weird they make the Horses like the other clans in EoT:H - because its supposed to be, on paper, a book about those politics. The interesting stuff in there is showing how those politics permeate all castes of the Horses, which make the old-school caste tensions even sillier. There should be MORE about the various players reaching across caste to build support.

In the vein of what you're talking about, the notable pilot entry for the Eurus MBT in the RecGuides, a TankWarrior who won herself a Bloodname and was promoted to a frontline Cluster as a political ploy was exactly the kind of internal-politics stuff we should've seen more of. Hell, we should've seen a TankWarrior period somewhere in that novel, IMO. But instead, we got James Cobb The Lesser and a Clan full of regressive idiots.

Someone tried to say that it was Malvina Hazen's influence that caused the Horses to regress in their lower-caste relations... but that ignores the fact that Malvina Hazen specifically found that inter-caste cooperation fascinating and useful and brought that idea over to the Falcons by letting the lower castes test up into the warrior ranks.

He really falls hard into that tired Battletech trope of "one sane man in the room", whose job it is just to point out why everyone else is dumb and that's it. He's just a mouthpiece for why Gottfired and Fulk are bad. That may be the reason they went for the weird inter-caste tensions again, because it gives Peter something he gets to be 100% right about.

That's exactly how I felt when I was reading the book.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

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Politically-speaking, I think it would be interesting if the Horses opened negotiations with the Scorpion Empire.

The Scorpions' closest holdings in the Chaine Cluster are not all that far away from the Horse OZ as of June 3152; indeed, with the Scorpions in possession of fully functional HPGs, and with the Horses fielding various technology types (such as the aforementioned QuadVees) with which to trade, the basis for an agreement well bargained and done could be cobbled together. Especially if Alaric decides he's in no hurry to un-Abjure the Scorpions, and/or to consider inviting them to sit on the new Star League Council at Unity City.

Indeed, from the Scorpion perspective, the Khan and zarKhan might open a line of communication with the Horses, even if talks with Alaric appear to go well. Best to keep one's options open, after all.

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Given the current moves by Scorpions they will be coming into contact with Horses (and Lyrans) before long so you are on to something here

Scorpions have been snooping around old territory of RWR for a century now with no indications of slowing down and the Horsies have been shacking up in the old RWR capital Apollo for a while now among other planets

It's only a matter of time before they are face to face with each other (outside earlier Seeker visits) especially once that HPG Scorpions are building in Chainelane Isles goes online and becomes talk of the town

And Horses and Scorpions have surprisingly plenty things to chat about especially in trade department and exchange of information (for Scorpions) and political experiences (for Horses)

There's also the fact that their military doctrines have more in common than most people think, while Scorpions don't go all in on combined arms approach they do maintain small but stable vehicle pool in their Touman/doctrine and a massive one in Garrison units, they can always use more quality products that Horses design

They have interesting overlap with some more obscure mechs exclusive only to two of them at this point (Wyvern IIC, UrbanMech IIC, Bowman, Thunder Stallion) while Scorpions have their own tradition of quad mechs second only to Horses themselves (Fire Scorpion, Snow Fox, Arana, Tolva, Rhino)

Horses could also use some tips from Scorpions on how to start getting some mileage out of all those locals they live next to, Horses have been solid neighbors and guardians so there's not a single reason why they shouldn't start to open up more with each other


Horses and Scorpions definitely have a lot of things to talk about, whichever upcoming book covers that part of space will most likely elaborate on it

[RexCalices]

So onto the gameplay side of things, as I'm putting together a force, I'm curious about how you all use one particular unit - my beloved Gnome. What's your preferred ride for these guys if an omni-mech isn't available to put them on? Their heavy nature makes them a bit awkward in certain cargo bays. Omni vehicles are great of course but many seem a tad expensive BV wise.

[Natasha Kerensky]

So onto the gameplay side of things, as I'm putting together a force, I'm curious about how you all use one particular unit - my beloved Gnome. What's your preferred ride for these guys if an omni-mech isn't available to put them on? Their heavy nature makes them a bit awkward in certain cargo bays. Omni vehicles are great of course but many seem a tad expensive BV wise.

Under standard BMR rules, all battle armor suits weigh one ton each for the purposes of infantry bays, regardless of the suit’s actual weight or weight class.  So even a lowly Anat could carry a point of Gnomes internally using BMR rules

But if your group insists on using the optional TacOps rule where the weight of battle armor suits matches their weight classes for the purposes of infantry bays — and so you need a 7.5-ton bay or larger — then your lowest BV2 options are probably one of the Flatbed Truck variants or the Saladin (Cargo).

Folks might still balk at those options because they use cargo bays, not infantry bays per se.  In that case, the lowest BV2 options for omnivehicles are probably a Hephaestus C, a Badger (C) F, or another low BV2 Badger (C) configuration.

An oddball omnivehicle option is the R10 Mechanized RCV.  It’s a FWL product and somewhat higher BV2 option, but the Horses have access to it on their MULs.

Omnified quadvees are another option you may not have considered, especially the Notos, but they’re in an entirely higher BV2 class.

I’m partial to the Gnome (LRM) because it doesn’t have to get close to contribute.  Depending on the scenarios, it can deploy from a slow carrier, be propositioned, or even just walk on and likely still reach out and touch the enemy.

If you’ll be on the defense, you may be able to pre-position or even hide your Gnomes, making carriers unnecessary.

Hope this helps.

[BrianDavion]

Gnomes can be carried externally by Omni's and this, IIRC includes omni tanks.

[Maelwys]

Really depends on the transport rules you're playing.

5 tons is alot easier to get than 7.5, and can open up alot of choices.

If you have to use the 7.5, then you might want to stick with the Anhur (BA). 10 tons to carry, but you're looking at over 600 BV per transport.

[RexCalices]

Under standard BMR rules, all battle armor suits weigh one ton each for the purposes of infantry bays, regardless of the suit’s actual weight or weight class.  So even a lowly Anat could carry a point of Gnomes internally using BMR rules

But if your group insists on using the optional TacOps rule where the weight of battle armor suits matches their weight classes for the purposes of infantry bays — and so you need a 7.5-ton bay or larger — then your lowest BV2 options are probably one of the Flatbed Truck variants or the Saladin (Cargo).

Folks might still balk at those options because they use cargo bays, not infantry bays per se.  In that case, the lowest BV2 options for omnivehicles are probably a Hephaestus C, a Badger (C) F, or another low BV2 Badger (C) configuration.

An oddball omnivehicle option is the R10 Mechanized RCV.  It’s a FWL product and somewhat higher BV2 option, but the Horses have access to it on their MULs.

Omnified quadvees are another option you may not have considered, especially the Notos, but they’re in an entirely higher BV2 class.

I’m partial to the Gnome (LRM) because it doesn’t have to get close to contribute.  Depending on the scenarios, it can deploy from a slow carrier, be propositioned, or even just walk on and likely still reach out and touch the enemy.

If you’ll be on the defense, you may be able to pre-position or even hide your Gnomes, making carriers unnecessary.

Hope this helps.

Quite useful things to mull on! I think you have the right of it when it comes to BV considerations. Good to know both the regular and TacOps options.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Epona’s…. Do the Horses even need more?

[Maelwys]

One thing that may get overlooked, but it is on the Clan General list (because they've been around for so long), is the introtech Heavy APCs. 20 tons, around 200 BV, but they've got 6 tons to transport infantry, so if you're using the standard transport rules, they can handle a point of BA.

[Metallgewitter]

Epona’s…. Do the Horses even need more?

Not to mention how many Clan Omni vehicles do even exist? The Hephaestus and Epona i believe. the Badger and Bandit are IS Omni vehicles and the Clans have those with fixed equipment (unless I am overlooking something). And don't come around with the Heimdall that was a WIE exclusive

[Maelwys]

The Badger and Bandit are full Omnis in their Clan versions as well (TR 3058U confirmed that they were Omnis). The Horses also have access to Omnis in the form of the Onuris Attack VTOL from RecGuide 30, the R10 Mechanized ICV, the Eurus MBT (Which at 5/8 might make an okay transport for the Gnomes, on the outside), and the Heimdall.

Somewhat tongue in cheek, there's the Aithon.  It isn't an Omni, but it has the 10 ton transport bay needed to transport the Gnome if using the advanced transport rules. It isn't cheap though :)

[BrianDavion]

The List of omni vehicles is pretty small but Hells Horses have access to the following:

R10
Badger C
Epona
Erusus
Heimdall
Hephaestus


of the list I'd argue the Badger and Epona are the best options The Horses have for elemental delivery the Epona when you want to deliver a squad to a location FAST, and the Badger when you want a reliable platform capable of delviering as much BA as possiable.

[Metallgewitter]

I wasn't sure which timeline you were talking about. Because for pre Jihad there would be the Hephaestus and Epona which are Hell's Horses exclusives (because the other Clans deemed it wasteful to use Omni technology on lowly verhicles). Not to mention that training of crews take way longer then for standard vehicles. I wasn't sure about the Badger and Bandit. I read the texts as if the clans only had a so called C version which to me sounded like a vehicle with Clan weaponry but no Omni tech. 

[RexCalices]

 Hell, we should've seen a TankWarrior period somewhere in that novel, IMO. But instead, we got James Cobb The Lesser and a Clan full of regressive idiots.

Well I did finish the book and there actually is a mention of a guy driving a tank... at the very end, Peter Cobb is the only person in the entire clan that has a history of putting testdown mechwarriors in tanks... to suggest that they put a guy who can't pilot a mech anymore in a tank.