Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoilerrific Discussion

[Kidd]

Hold up. While writing out a longer reply, I just realised something. I'm wasn't talking about how the Prequels were filmed, because dear god. I'm trying to give an example of how good plot flows from the logical steps of each character, given their established motivations. Perhaps its not a good example. I should've used ESB, specially since its directly comparable to TLJ.

Side note: it wasn't a necessary part of the plan for the Clone army to have been discovered the way it was. They simply had to exist. Its the galactic version of the cliche standoff/trap where the gunslinger gives his victim the gun: "Go on. Draw. I dare you." Except in this case both gunslinger and victim are being played by a bystander.

[iamfanboy]

Hold up. While writing out a longer reply, I just realised something. I'm wasn't talking about how the Prequels were filmed, because dear god. I'm trying to give an example of how good plot flows from the logical steps of each character, given their established motivations. Perhaps its not a good example. I should've used ESB, specially since its directly comparable to TLJ.

Side note: it wasn't a necessary part of the plan for the Clone army to have been discovered the way it was. They simply had to exist. Its the galactic version of the cliche standoff/trap where the gunslinger gives his victim the gun: "Go on. Draw. I dare you." Except in this case both gunslinger and victim are being played by a bystander.

Well, Palpatine's plan hinged on outright war being declared by the Republic on the Separatists - it gave legitimacy to the Seppies, and the actual genius of the basic notion is that no matter who won, HE'D still be boss. Without an army of the Republic to declare war WITH, his whole plan would crumble.

And the prequels were hindered by a lot of bad logic and bad faith to their characters, too - all part and parcel of the bad writing gig. Why did Yoda suddenly give in at the end of TPM and let Annie be trained? Why didn't Qui-Gon try to find a moneychanger (of which SOME must exist on Tatooine, because there's always a market for currency, especially currency belonging to the LARGEST GOVERNMENT IN THE UNIVERSE) instead of agreeing to a completely insane bet? And I've already mentioned the cut scene in AOTC - why would Padme have tried to sneak in instead of storming in, armored in her shining faith of the Republic?

I will give Revenge of the Sith this, though: It had Anakin properly tempted. It had set up what he was afraid of and WHY he would sacrifice everything in a turn to the Dark Side.



But your point about TLJ now makes even less sense. The mistakes that the characters make in TLJ do, in fact, stem from their characters.

Luke knows damn good and well that he is not a legend, but a man capable of mistakes, and does not want to make any more of them. Rey wants, more than anything else, to FIND a family, which is why she is drawn to both Luke (as a father) and Ben Solo (as a brother). Poe is a lone wolf secret agent not used to dealing with the chain of command, so it makes sense that he'd try to do what he THINKS his boss would want (save the fleet) instead of trusting this strange lady he knows nothing of. Kylo Ren wants to be strong, so strong that he will never need to be afraid again, and so he kills one being he is afraid of and does his damnedest to kill the other. Finn is a coward, and only fights when it's for someone important to him, so that's why he's so ready to run away.

[Kitsune413]

*prepares to be told why The Last Jedi has awful writing but the prequels, written by George Lucas with the dialogue skills of someone locked in their basement their entire life who learned their ability to communicate paradoxically from Star Wars Episode 1 and 2 because they contain the worst dialogue ever written, is better*



"Hold Me, Like You Did By The Lake On Naboo..."

[Kitsune413]

Rey also has that thing where she found a father figure in Han Solo, but then Kylo Ren killed him.

[guardiandashi]

Rey also has that thing where she found a father figure in Han Solo, but then Kylo Ren killed him.

I'm not so much of the belief that Han was Rey's "father figure" as that he had the potential to be her great mentor aka teacher. 
If you look at what Rey has demonstrated as acquired skills up to that point she is mostly a proto Han, in the sense that she has some fighting skills (staff instead of blaster because of availability, but as she is scavenging those star destroyers there have to be flipping TONS of weapons lockers, armories crew quarters, etc where she could have found blasters. ) she has scavenging/repair skills just like Han, they don't really explain why she has pilot skills ... but she does, etc.  but the big plot twist that changes her path, is while she WANTS to be just a smuggler (Like Han her Idol) she has the much rarer force abilities, and so gets told she will never live up to her potential if she doesn't use those skills that sort of require luke to train her.

now my view on Rey is that her strongest specific force ability is actually mind reading.
Anakins strongest ability was combat precognition (AKA seeing a few moments into the future)
Luke well I have never really some up with a good ability for him, unless it has to do with how he (in the EU was able to dispel dark side corruption whenever he wanted to ) IE remove darkside points from his and others character sheet (rpg reference)
Liea has basically the same force potential Luke has, but never really uses it, other than indirectly in diplomacy.
Ben aka Kailo ren, seems to have some kind of combat skills /rage as his primary abilities, but that's because its what he has been focusing on.

[Kitsune413]

Rey's best force ability seems to be that the Force tells her how to do stuff.

She's got an airspeeder/bike she rides around on for piloting skills.

Luke was a good pilot... also he blindfires some torpedoes into a 9' square space.

[Kidd]

Well, Palpatine's plan hinged on outright war being declared by the Republic on the Separatists - it gave legitimacy to the Seppies, and the actual genius of the basic notion is that no matter who won, HE'D still be boss. Without an army of the Republic to declare war WITH, his whole plan would crumble.

No disagreement there.

And the prequels were hindered by a lot of bad logic and bad faith to their characters, too - all part and parcel of the bad writing gig. Why did Yoda suddenly give in at the end of TPM and let Annie be trained? Why didn't Qui-Gon try to find a moneychanger

Yoda gave in because of the suggestion of the prophecy, Anakin's midi count and Obiwan's stubbornness to train him no matter what - all handily summed up at the end of TPM, in 1 of the few watchable scenes of the PT :D

The rest is detail. Which is bad, yes.

Luke knows damn good and well that he is not a legend, but a man capable of mistakes, and does not want to make any more of them. Rey wants, more than anything else, to FIND a family, which is why she is drawn to both Luke (as a father) and Ben Solo (as a brother). Poe is a lone wolf secret agent not used to dealing with the chain of command, so it makes sense that he'd try to do what he THINKS his boss would want (save the fleet) instead of trusting this strange lady he knows nothing of. Kylo Ren wants to be strong, so strong that he will never need to be afraid again, and so he kills one being he is afraid of and does his damnedest to kill the other. Finn is a coward, and only fights when it's for someone important to him, so that's why he's so ready to run away.

Which I mostly agree with. Where TLJ fails, for me, is:

Luke - adequately selling his turnaround to supporting Rey*
Rey - isn't tempted enough by the Dark side
Poe - no problems here, as I said.
Kylo - doesn't explain his reasons well other than showing how he gets kicked around by Snoke and Luke. I can connect the dots, but I wish TLJ made it just a bitmore explicit. Passable.
Finn - doesn't develop much, because his arc is merged with Rose's. And Rose isn't compelling enough to play Padme to Finn's Anakin - showing him what he's missing out on.

*Kitsune asked why I'm not satisfied. The reason is because he remains resistant to Rey all the way till the end. None of the previous catalytic events seemed to faze him - until the end. Then suddenly he appears again. His sendoff was great. His intro as an embittered and fearful ex-Master, great. Middle connecting bit... not quite.

[Kitsune413]

I didn't realize it was out already. Have been watching it tonight to relax. I forgot how Kyle doesn't blow up Leia when given the chance...

R2 convinces Luke with the hologram of Leia asking Obi Wan for help. I forgot about that too but it's touching...

Holdo doesn't like flyboys and explicitly tells Poe she is the last thing she needed at the moment, which is true. But I like Poe's, "This is a need to know plan, and she doesn't need to know." Which Is him turning it around and being really juvenile... I like Poe. I like that he doesn't know how to handle not blowing things up with a Star Fighter.

Also I actually built the prank call in the beginning up to be worse than it actually was. Not that I didn't enjoy it, but I have pointed out that it is bad writing. It isn't so bad and the Dreadnought commander even complains that they should have scrambled fighters earlier.

[Kidd]

Holdo's dialogue with Poe was a mess of cliche sentences lifted straight from the "my bitch boss" sitcom genre. The intent might have been to make her turnaround surprising, but by that time the audience had already been convinced she was the villain for 80% of the movie... congrats, you played yourself.

The prank call is a good example of the stupid look-at-me-I'm -so-funny humour infusing the Phase 2 MCU. The Dreadnought commander's reaction is the kind of humour I wish we had more of - ironic and believably played straight.

[Kitsune413]

Kylo Ren also points out that Rey sees Han as a father figure. Or at least she is actively looking.

[Kitsune413]

I disagree with your assessment of Holdo's dialogue. If a guy had delivered it then he would just be seen as an antagonistic military commander.

When you take a look at the 1 star reviews on Amazon essentially none of them make it through without complaining about feminism and by your reference of sitcom genre's I think it's probably best to end the discussion here.

I get why you think the writing is poor now. Moving on.

[Kidd]

I very much welcome the attempt. But you don't change a stereotype by copying stereotyped dialogue and then insisting the character was right and the audience is wrong. The change starts with original dialogue and characterization

The sad thing is that the best successfu examples of are found in the same franchise. Leia, Mon Mothma; and even Padme had her moments. Off-franchise I'd say the boss in Bladerunner 2049

[garhkal]

No disagreement there.Yoda gave in because of the suggestion of the prophecy, Anakin's midi count and Obiwan's stubbornness to train him no matter what - all handily summed up at the end of TPM, in 1 of the few watchable scenes of the PT :D

That's something i always wondered.  What would have happened TO palp's plan, had anakin NOT bought into his lies?

[Kidd]

That's something i always wondered.  What would have happened TO palp's plan, had anakin NOT bought into his lies?

The novelisation has the answer :) Anakin's trust in Palpatine was the key to his plan, and remained so all the way to Return of the Jedi  ;D

Palps also had Anakin repaired suboptimally so that he was unable to take revenge on Palps even if he had wished to.

[Kitsune413]

I very much welcome the attempt. But you don't change a stereotype by copying stereotyped dialogue and then insisting the character was right and the audience is wrong. The change starts with original dialogue and characterization

The sad thing is that the best successfu examples of are found in the same franchise. Leia, Mon Mothma; and even Padme had her moments. Off-franchise I'd say the boss in Bladerunner 2049

I promise you if Holdo was a man, or less pretty nobody would have had an issue with the dialogue... and unfortunately at this point I also assume that if Rose was a model people would be less inclined to blow off any part of TLJ... and if Rey was a guy we wouldn't be tossing the term "Mary Sue" around... or asking where she learned to fight.

Which I'm pretty certain is the foundation of all these ambiguous complaints about writing. Because complaining about the writing of the Last Jedi is pretty ubiquitous especially with some pretty ephemeral conclusions about what is wrong with the writing. Like... We all know why the writing in Episode 1 and Episode 2 suck. You don't have to be a deep thinker to come to that conclusion. Ask a bunch of random people what was wrong with the writing in either of these and you're going to get the same answer over and over again. But these same armchair script writers that haven't read a book since high school are all pretty certain the writing of the Last Jedi is bad. The point they can all seem to agree on? The lady with the pretty purple hair was really unfair to that cool pilot guy.

[Wrangler]

Personally bumping off Admiral in that ramming tactic was waste.  She would been good higher up character to have around once it became clear that Leia had been training her and instructed her do such stupid tactic of long slow getaway from First Order forces. 

[Kitsune413]

Personally bumping off Admiral in that ramming tactic was waste.  She would been good higher up character to have around once it became clear that Leia had been training her and instructed her do such stupid tactic of long slow getaway from First Order forces.

Yeah. I really liked Holdo. I think they take her down to grow Poe as a character. He really looks up to her by the end of the movie.

[iamfanboy]

I very much welcome the attempt. But you don't change a stereotype by copying stereotyped dialogue and then insisting the character was right and the audience is wrong.

I find it funny that I have to bring this up on a website dedicated to a war-based universe, but:

It was stereotyped MILITARY dialogue. "You're not in the chain of command, buddy, so kindly see yourself out." If it had been bellowed out angrily in a deep baritone, then no one would have a problem with it. But because a woman said it, giving a uniquely feminine slightly sarcastic, slightly condescending tone... "Aren't you just ADORABLE, thinking that just because Leia tolerated you I will, especially after the stunt you pulled at the dreadnought!"

And the thing is, she was right and he was wrong. There was a plan all along. He should have trusted the chain'o'command, of which he is a part of at the squadron level - yes, in Leia's org chart there was a special box next to her name with his in it because he was HER special asset, but in Holdo's he's just a squadron leader without a fighter.

On top of that, Holdo has a serious problem to deal with: The enemy fleet is able to follow her through hyperspace. Is there a traitor on board? Did someone, trusted by Leia, plant a tracker? NEVER tell a plan to one person more than it has to be told to.

When you take a look at the 1 star reviews on Amazon essentially none of them make it through without complaining about feminism and by your reference of sitcom genre's I think it's probably best to end the discussion here.

Good gods, you're not wrong. I hate stereotyping, but the 1-star reviews for TLJ make it WAY too easy.


And the worst part is, there are problems with the movie. The casino trip was a completely useless waste of celluloid, cutting it entirely and redubbing Poe with, "The slicer is waiting for you in the shuttle we stole" would lose nothing. What's with the Macguffin of 'being able to track them' that's never resolved? Why is Poe's mutiny unpunished, instead treating one of the most severe crimes available in the military as a cute little diversion?


As far as Rey and the Dark Side goes...

It can't give her what she wants. It stems from selfishness, anger, fear, and greed, and no amount of that will give her a father, a mother, a REASON they abandoned her beyond just 'not wanting her any more'.

[Bedwyr]

Yes, let's drop that line of inquiry. Gender stereotypes discussion leads nowhere but to rule 4.

/mod

[Kidd]

You may also recall that 9yo Anakin killing a space battleship was also controversial. Complaints about OP protagonists are not new. The scripters of TLJ also had a great chance to show Rey learning more Force techniques from Luke or even selfstudy from the Jedi books, but decided not to... I don't know why. That being said I don't begrudge her her powers anymore, because the opportunity for establishing that is past. The plot needs to move on.

BTW, Hollywood isn't (entirely) stupid. The people who produce blockbuster films aren't stupid. Costume, dialogue, actor delivery, scene editing are all choreographed to precisely generate a desired audience effect. When they made that battle scene with AT-AT lookalikes on a white planet, they did it to trigger an emotional response - nostalgia - and no throwaway line of a trooper exclaiming "it's salt!" is going to exonerate them.

[Kitsune413]

The Casino trip is important because it builds on the universe. I played Knights of the Old Republic and read some expanded stuff so I know that there are whole regions of space with awful people living it up like the Republic or Empire isn't tearing itself apart...

So the Casino Trip establishes that. Here is a place that is only profiting off of the war. It's also important for Finn because he gets to see what running away looks like.

"Look closer" is pretty important. Because Finn is like, "This is great!" So running away looks really good... and Rose points out, "Hey... No it's not. Look how ugly it is."

and so by the end of the movie Finn identifies himself as Rebel scum.... and then ironically has to be told to tone it down a bit. haha. "I'm a rebel! I hate me some imperials!" "Hey tone it down killer. It's not just about killing the Empire."

[Kidd]

Finn and Rose seriously lack chemistry. Or like, any hint of romance, at ALL. Could be partly because both actors are relatively inexperienced.

The casino trip was the same find-the-Mcguffin deal that was criticised in TPM. I can tolerate it, but the anti-wealth/war profiteering diatribe is... misplaced at best. Threw in animal cruelty, slavery AND child abuse too, as if we're playing "you need to hate these guys" bingo.

[Kitsune413]

The scripters of TLJ also had a great chance to show Rey learning more Force techniques from Luke or even selfstudy from the Jedi books, but decided not to...

The script writers of The Empire Strikes back could have shown Luke sticking around and getting good at being a Jedi. But he had stuff to do. So did Rey. She's got the books on the Falcon and the intermission between movies to get good. Also, like Snoke points out, The Force will build itself a lightside champion to deal with the power of its darkside champion. He figured it would be Luke. Instead the Force is building up Rey. You mention that the Darkside place for Rey isn't very dark. Yeah. The Force doesn't need her to be and she's only got one demon.

I don't know why. That being said I don't begrudge her her powers anymore, because the opportunity for establishing that is past. The plot needs to move on.

I remember this Gary Stu named Luke blind firing this proton torpedo once like he was in a Battletech and he decided he'd turn off the fire control system. If I remember correctly the To Hit Number modifier was... Let's see. Long Range. So +4.But it might have been extreme Using some overthrust. Let's just throw in the running modifier. So +2 which is gracious... The Target size was... Man Sized... but he was in a space fighter.. that's something like +5. Sensors are down, which in battletech means you can't make the attack. But lets be nice again and add +2. What are we up to so far? That's 13 and we were being really nice...

He made that shot... He also used that power on the fly after a suggestion from Obi Wan. A Suggestion. Dude didn't train for weeks.

BTW, Hollywood isn't (entirely) stupid. The people who produce blockbuster films aren't stupid. Costume, dialogue, actor delivery, scene editing are all choreographed to precisely generate a desired audience effect. When they made that battle scene with AT-AT lookalikes on a white planet, they did it to trigger an emotional response - nostalgia - and no throwaway line of a trooper exclaiming "it's salt!" is going to exonerate them.

You know when activision makes a game in space about shooting people and they call it, "Call of Duty" even though its way different than any other Call of Duty game? They're trying to cash in on that brand...

If you walk into a movie with Star Wars on the title card and you think that their use of Nostalgia is a low blow you've already critically failed your knowledge marketing skill check.

[Kitsune413]

Finn and Rose seriously lack chemistry.

Explain.

I can tolerate it, but the anti-wealth/war profiteering diatribe is... misplaced at best.

Why?

Threw in animal cruelty, slavery AND child abuse too, as if we're playing "you need to hate these guys" bingo.

and this is a problem because?

How out of place was it in Return of the Jedi with the Twi'lek slaves and bloodsport and animal cruelty? If I remember correctly that's also a third party not related to the Empire or the Republic or The Rebels.

[Kidd]

Alright. I give up. The Last Jedi is the best movie ever, perfect in all aspects. Not a single flaw, absolutely stellar. It would get 100% ratings and sweep the Oscars if not for all the totally unjustified bigoted grognard haters ruining it for everyone else. A textbook of film-making, a seminal work of the ages. Perfect.

[Kitsune413]

If you are going to claim something has poor writing, which past a certain point is subjective, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an explanation.

There is alot of objectively bad writing in episode 1 and episode 2.

But if you're going to argue that the Last Jedi is objectively bad because you don't think that Armsdealers have any place in it then you should be prepared to explain why armsdealers don't belong in a Star Wars movie.

From an objective standpoint the movie is good. 43% of its reviews on Amazon for the digital extended version are 1 star reviews. House of the Dead is a 1 star review movie. It's objectively bad. If you're trying to give the Last Jedi a 1 star review then something else is going on.

You keep arguing it has bad writing. You could make another claim and maybe we could debate it. If you were like, "I don't think the Last Jedi is the place to discuss the Chicago Cubs 1966 stats." I would be like, "Yeah. Really out of place."

Apparently they cut out some scenes that occur between Finn and Rose. So they definitely didn't build up the relationship in the movie as much as they could have. But you're arguing chemistry between the two actors... and the two actors don't appear to hate eachother and they definitely aren't struggling like Anakin and Obi Wan in the bounty hunter chase. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9-K1cxj6IQ

Or struggling at all.

I agree we should stop though and it's fine if you subjectively dislike the movie.

[Kitsune413]

You may also recall that 9yo Anakin killing a space battleship was also controversial.

Remember how he accidentally ended up in space because of autopilot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHde6ey45eM

"Now this is pod racing!"

luckily The Phantom Menace didn't have some purple haired space floozy telling Anakin not to blow up ships or the writing would be bad enough for a 37% 1 star score on Amazon.com

[Lorcan Nagle]

There is alot of objectively bad writing in episode 1 and episode 2.

"You can write this shit George, but I certianly can't say it" - Harrison Ford, on the set of Star Wars, 1976

[Kitsune413]

"You can write this shit George, but I certianly can't say it" - Harrison Ford, on the set of Star Wars, 1976

"A friendly George Lucas entered the room and was eager to hear the pitch from Red Fly’s creatives. “Before they could finish their spiel, Lucas cut them off, stood up, walked over to the statues, rotated them to be facing the same direction, pushed them together, and said ‘They’re friends!’” adds the source. “He wanted these characters to be friends, and to play off of each other. He talked about the show Burn Notice as a reference point. He likened Darth Maul to Sonny from The Godfather, and he likened Darth Talon to Lauren Bacall. He actually did an impersonation of her. It was supposedly the weirdest impersonation of a ’40s actress going, ‘Don’t you know how to whistle? Put your lips together and blow.’”

Source - http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2014/05/07/the-story-of-the-darth-maul-game-that-never-came-to-be.aspx?PostPageIndex=4

[Daemion]

How out of place was it in Return of the Jedi with the Twi'lek slaves and bloodsport and animal cruelty? If I remember correctly that's also a third party not related to the Empire or the Republic or The Rebels.

That's right, but that was a direction that was established not only in the first movie (Ep IV), but carried on and played on in the second (Ep V) and finally brought to the forefront in the third (Ep VI).  All through Han and misadventures in debt established right from the start.

And, you're partly wrong about that last part, not being related to the Empire.  The Empire, through Vader, hired Bounty Hunters to bring in Han as bait.  That the Bounty Hunter who caught Han could double deal and take him to another concerned party was an added bonus. So, some relation.

This brings up another interesting little question that only comes after reflection - if people are profiting off the war, how long has the Resistance been fighting the First Order?  How come some of these betters aren't pulling a sponsorship gig like in Hunger Games, and sending in supplies to 'win that bet'?

Again, the side-trip to the Casino World is out of place.