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Author Topic: Cannot find on the MUL  (Read 1365 times)

Colt Ward

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Cannot find on the MUL
« on: 05 January 2018, 01:27:53 »
Trying to find field gun or infantry artillery available on the MUL and I do not see it at all.  Looking specifically for the Jihad timeframe for a game coming up.

The closest I did see was 'Mechanized Field Artillery 71st Mechanized, Field Artillery, 2nd Sword of Light' which is listed as TRO3085.  It has the Sniper & a AC though it does not give ammo count on that AC.  I was looking for the mix of arty types- Thumper, Sniper & A4 is possible.
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YingJanshi

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #1 on: 05 January 2018, 01:55:37 »
Trying to find field gun or infantry artillery available on the MUL and I do not see it at all.  Looking specifically for the Jihad timeframe for a game coming up.

The closest I did see was 'Mechanized Field Artillery 71st Mechanized, Field Artillery, 2nd Sword of Light' which is listed as TRO3085.  It has the Sniper & a AC though it does not give ammo count on that AC.  I was looking for the mix of arty types- Thumper, Sniper & A4 is possible.

Could be wrong, but I believe those are the only two infantry units with Field Artillery that have actual record sheets. I'm afraid if you want different ones you'll have to use TechManual and Tactical Operations to construct your own. (And from my recollection Field artillery only get 1 ton of ammo, but I could just be thinking of the Field Guns.)

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SCC

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #2 on: 05 January 2018, 05:50:23 »
There's a TC platoon with 6 LAC/5's, a CC one with an Arrow 4 and that DCMS one, all have only a single ton of ammo, so 20 rounds for the TC and DCMS, 5 for the CC

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #3 on: 05 January 2018, 11:52:13 »
BF/AS don't use ammo, so the MUL isn't going to list any ammo counts on the AS cards.
Yeah, there's only two conventional infantry that have gotten Record Sheets so far, so that's the only ones on the MUL.

Thumper
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2131/mechanized-field-artillery-71st-mechanized-field-artillery-2nd-sword-of-light

Arrow IV
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2190/missile-artillery-infantry-kommando-special-forces-fifth-mac

I did "sneak" a Motorized Sniper into the Combat Manual listings that is not on the MUL.  (p120 CM: Mercs, p116, CM: Kurita).
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Colt Ward

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #4 on: 05 January 2018, 12:19:15 »
I looked up the 71st unit on MM, it says semi-portable autocannon but no ammo.
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #5 on: 05 January 2018, 15:23:12 »
The Semi-Portable Autocannon is the 71st's Support Weapon, asking how shots that comes with is the same as asking how many shots an SRM infantry platoon has.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #6 on: 05 January 2018, 17:17:51 »
Just wanted to be sure since I usually let MM worry about that and they were equipped with rifles for the troops as well.
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #7 on: 06 January 2018, 02:46:48 »
All platoons must have some rifles, more or less. There are no canon designs which have every trooper using a support weapon so some of them must be carrying another weapon

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #8 on: 06 January 2018, 14:35:13 »
There are no canon designs which have every trooper using a support weapon

Because this is strictly illegal.
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Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #9 on: 06 January 2018, 14:48:50 »
Not strictly... At least not until they errata the M42B in the Infantry Tables (as I pointed out some time ago).

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #10 on: 06 January 2018, 15:08:20 »
Because this is strictly illegal.
No, if you pick a support weapon that has a crew requirement of one and then use two man squads you have a platoon where everyone has a support weapon, maximum platoon size is 20 men but.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #11 on: 06 January 2018, 15:13:33 »
No, if you pick a support weapon that has a crew requirement of one and then use two man squads you have a platoon where everyone has a support weapon, maximum platoon size is 20 men but.

I think they added a minimum squad size as well?
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #12 on: 06 January 2018, 15:23:28 »
There's a maximum squad size but no minimum that I can see.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #13 on: 06 January 2018, 15:29:49 »
There was an errata somewhere that imposed a 5-person minimum.  I'll link it once I find it.

And seriously, the M42B is listed under "standard" weapons with its Heavy Burst special, so technically you could arm everyone in a platoon with it.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #14 on: 06 January 2018, 15:32:45 »
There's nothing technical about it. It's not a support weapon, so you can give it to all your troopers. Still can't have an all-support weapon platoon.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #15 on: 06 January 2018, 15:36:54 »
Except that the M42B IS a support weapon, despite being listed incorrectly in the Standard list.  It has multiple modes, but the "standard" mode as described by AToW doesn't qualify for the Heavy Burst special (only the machine gun mode does).  The Infantry Tables v3.0 gives the Support Weapon quality to the Standard version.  Hence, why I said "technically".

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #16 on: 06 January 2018, 15:38:22 »
I'm confused. What book/errata tells us that it is a support weapon, aside from badass stats?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #17 on: 06 January 2018, 15:57:09 »
Weirdo: AToW page 273, and also page 266 (which says: "SEE SUPPORT WEAPONS"). The proper fix is to have three entries in the Infantry Tables, two in the Standard list for "Standard" and "Close-In" modes, and one in the Support Weapon section for "Light Machine Gun" mode.

SCC: I was mistaken... the limit Xotl mentioned here is for a maximum of 5 squads per platoon.  My wires were completely crossed.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #18 on: 06 January 2018, 18:46:34 »
What were you told when you asked in the Rules Forum about this?
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
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"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #19 on: 06 January 2018, 19:07:08 »
I posted it to errata some time ago, and have seen no movement.

EDIT: Found my original report from 2016.
« Last Edit: 06 January 2018, 19:15:35 by Daryk »

Weirdo

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #20 on: 06 January 2018, 19:36:53 »
Most errata comes from rules questions. Just saying.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #21 on: 06 January 2018, 19:37:49 »
So... we should spam the rules forum with errata report issues?  ???

Weirdo

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #22 on: 06 January 2018, 19:39:01 »
Cut and dried errata, no. This one doesn't look cut and dried at all. There are plenty of ways to resolve it.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #23 on: 06 January 2018, 19:45:07 »
To the rules forum it is!  O0

SCC

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #24 on: 06 January 2018, 20:43:23 »
The concept that a weapon firing in one mode counts as a Standard weapon and another as a Support is ludicrous

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #25 on: 06 January 2018, 20:55:53 »
For once, we agree. I suspect the TW stats will be drawn from a single mode, and the other modes ignored for simplicity's sake
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

Daryk

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #26 on: 06 January 2018, 23:13:44 »
What's really ludicrous is that the Standard mode will do more than the Support Weapon mode.  Full auto doesn't compare to adding the grenade launcher.

Of course, as it's currently written, you have a full on machine gun WITH an attached grenade launcher as a STANDARD weapon.   :P

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #27 on: 07 January 2018, 04:36:15 »
No, if you pick a support weapon that has a crew requirement of one and then use two man squads you have a platoon where everyone has a support weapon, maximum platoon size is 20 men but.

You would be wrong.  Every squad must have a primary weapon.  Support weapons are not primary weapons, ergo, you cannot have a squad using only support weapons.
(seriously, we discussed this in the rules question forum)

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #28 on: 08 January 2018, 01:03:56 »
You would be wrong.  Every squad must have a primary weapon.  Support weapons are not primary weapons, ergo, you cannot have a squad using only support weapons.
OK, I'll give you that, but given that given that said primary weapon choice will have no impact on game stats and would likely not appear in a TRO entry on the unit I think we can treat it as having no primary weapon.

(seriously, we discussed this in the rules question forum)
Not me at least

Alexander Knight

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #29 on: 08 January 2018, 01:18:38 »
OK, I'll give you that, but given that given that said primary weapon choice will have no impact on game stats and would likely not appear in a TRO entry on the unit I think we can treat it as having no primary weapon.

Again.  No.  You cannot have a two-man squad with two support weapons.  Can.  Not.  The closest you can get would be 3-man squads.

Colt Ward

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #30 on: 08 January 2018, 02:26:30 »
So one other thing I noticed . . . the FS Jihad MUL entry is lacking the IS Std BA of any flavor.  While the FM3085 RAT has less instances of it than other major house lists, it IS on there . . . but not the MUL.
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nckestrel

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #31 on: 08 January 2018, 09:33:55 »
So one other thing I noticed . . . the FS Jihad MUL entry is lacking the IS Std BA of any flavor.  While the FM3085 RAT has less instances of it than other major house lists, it IS on there . . . but not the MUL.

The MUL lacking the FS available for IS Standard in the Jihad is based on TR3058U saying, in the IS Standard Battle Armor entry, "with the exception of House Davion, who has already shifted all production over to their Cavalier". Differences in opinion in how many were made prior to the FCCW, how many survived the FCCW, when did FS switch all production over, etc.
But the MUL was created before FM3085, so that should likely be changed now.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #32 on: 08 January 2018, 10:53:11 »
Well if we got a canon Cavalier (LRR) I would not care, but the suit does not have one of the better IS weapons available for older suits.
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #33 on: 10 January 2018, 04:36:22 »
Again.  No.  You cannot have a two-man squad with two support weapons.  Can.  Not.  The closest you can get would be 3-man squads.
Can you give me a page number ref for this? Heck I'm pretty sure BA breaks this (Or can, but that doesn't really apply to CI)

Alexander Knight

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #34 on: 10 January 2018, 06:09:20 »
Battle Armor have absolutely no bearing on conventional infantry squad construction.  It's like asking why infantry can't use Ferro-Lamellor armor.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #35 on: 10 January 2018, 10:56:55 »
No page reference is needed, this is basic logic. If you have a two-man squad and both troopers are carrying the same gun, that gun is by definition your primary weapon. Support weapons can never be primary weapons, therefore two-man squads with two support weapons are illegal.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #36 on: 10 January 2018, 16:20:05 »
Battle Armor have absolutely no bearing on conventional infantry squad construction.  It's like asking why infantry can't use Ferro-Lamellor armor.
Anti-Personal Weapon mounts.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #37 on: 10 January 2018, 16:28:52 »
Anti-Personal Weapon mounts.

Mobile HPGs.
K-F drives.

This is an incomplete list of things that have literally nothing to do with constructing a conventional infantry platoon.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #38 on: 10 January 2018, 16:35:18 »
Mobile HPGs.
K-F drives.

This is an incomplete list of things that have literally nothing to do with constructing a conventional infantry platoon.

Clearly you haven't seen the rules section for The ilClan then.
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #39 on: 10 January 2018, 16:44:00 »
Mobile HPGs.
K-F drives.

This is an incomplete list of things that have literally nothing to do with constructing a conventional infantry platoon.
I'm surprised at your not getting what I'm referencing here Wierdo, the BA ability to anti-personal attacks, while the default is that they use the generic rifle platoon, I believe that they can use any config you desire, including a six-man set of Support Weapons.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #40 on: 10 January 2018, 16:46:26 »
While BattleArmor may use infantry weapons, they are not built like conventional infantry using primary weapon. In fact, they can and have been built without weapons.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #41 on: 10 January 2018, 17:05:41 »
I'm surprised at your not getting what I'm referencing here Wierdo, the BA ability to anti-personal attacks, while the default is that they use the generic rifle platoon, I believe that they can use any config you desire, including a six-man set of Support Weapons.

And that concerns conventional, not battle armor infantry construction....how?  Do note that Battle Armor construction rules are in a different section of Tech Manual.  Also note that BattleMech-scale weapons when mounted on Battle Armor do not always conform to the same construction rules as when mounted on a 'Mech.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #42 on: 10 January 2018, 17:13:41 »
I'm surprised at your not getting what I'm referencing here Wierdo, the BA ability to anti-personal attacks, while the default is that they use the generic rifle platoon, I believe that they can use any config you desire, including a six-man set of Support Weapons.

As Alex said, that still has nothing to do with constructing conventional infantry platoons, because conventional infantry platoons cannot mount them.

If we're derailing this thread to instead list things that conventional troops cannot use but can be used to hurt those troops, then K-F drives still belong on that list. After all, if a platoon of space-capable infantry are floating adjacent to a JumpShip when it jumps, they're going to Have A Bad Experience.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
Battleforce Space is too bulky. I vote we start calling it BattleFace.

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #43 on: 10 January 2018, 22:17:53 »
Ladies and gentlemen, knock it off and get back on topic.  In case you've lost track, the peculiarities of what particular unit types can or cannot mount wasn't the topic.

Failure to do so will be met with disciplinary action under the forum rules.

Colt Ward

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #44 on: 10 January 2018, 23:36:46 »
So earlier someone said that the IS Std BA would need to be added to the MUL . . . do I need to make a post somewhere as a reminder, or did the right type Battlemaster notice?
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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #45 on: 11 January 2018, 07:26:49 »
Someone brought up ammo and field weapons with infantry. For AS they may not track ammo but for TW games it is one ton per weapon. Field Guns can use rapid fire rules as well as different specialty ammo. They do not, however, explode. Field Artillery can also use any ammo a normal artillery unit can, though I would advise against a Davey Crocket at short range. The MUL has very few of either as well as others have discovered. Best to make them in MML and print the RS (which is getting an overhaul).

mbear

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #46 on: 11 January 2018, 09:59:19 »
Could be wrong, but I believe those are the only two infantry units with Field Artillery that have actual record sheets. I'm afraid if you want different ones you'll have to use TechManual and Tactical Operations to construct your own. (And from my recollection Field artillery only get 1 ton of ammo, but I could just be thinking of the Field Guns.)

For future reference, TacOps page 311 says that both Field Guns and Field Artillery get one ton of ammunition.

Also:
Quote
Ultra and Rotary Autocannon Field Guns are immune to jamming or fire control failure effects, and LB-X Autocannon Field Guns must always use cluster munitions. Gauss-based Field Guns are immune to weapon explosion effects.

However, where you can have multiple field guns, apparently you can only have one field artillery piece (emphasis mine):
Quote
Only motorized conventional infantry platoons or mechanized conventional infantry platoons with a Wheeled or Tracked motive type
may be equipped with a single Field Artillery weapon or Artillery Cannon (per platoon).

nckestrel

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Re: Cannot find on the MUL
« Reply #47 on: 11 January 2018, 11:56:09 »
So earlier someone said that the IS Std BA would need to be added to the MUL . . . do I need to make a post somewhere as a reminder, or did the right type Battlemaster notice?

But it in the MUL thread (under the Errata forum).  Availability questions almost always take a discussion rather than any one person just changing it.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

 

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