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Author Topic: Intercept H P G transmissions???  (Read 2701 times)

monbvol

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #60 on: 12 July 2018, 22:15:14 »
That does make Comstar being able to establish and keep it's neutrality a lot more plausible.

Empyrus

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #61 on: 12 July 2018, 22:27:57 »
So... if they're not radio waves, then HPGs don't teleport photons.  That means they have to use some other signaling mechanism, and the emergence wave is the only one that springs to mind (which is IR if memory serves).  Is it that?  IR across interplanetary distances would require more specialized equipment than a ham radio...
IIRC, the emergence effect is the heat (infrared radiation) from dust and stuff that gets vaporized when it overlaps with the jump field. Space does have dust and other stuff around after all. Not sure HPG pulse would do that.
Infrared is pretty visible over long distances. Using it for signaling isn't really that easy though, especially since oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere has tendency to absorb quite a bit of it, planetary receivers would have hard time with it.

I would guess HPG could be modulating hyperspace at the end point  to create signals that can be detected with correct equipment, probably not quite simple radiowaves. Far from as complex as the HPG itself, but not your everyday stuff either.
Consider how Blackboxes send waves through hyperspace that can carry information, i would guess the effect is analogous but within real universe than just hyperspace.

(Note that i use hyperspace as a shorthand for the "medium" where KF jumps and HPGs happen, BT doesn't have literal version of hyperspace like Star Wars has but there is something evidently.)

Von Rohrs

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #62 on: 13 July 2018, 04:32:27 »
That does make Comstar being able to establish and keep it's neutrality a lot more plausible.

Would you elaborate? I would have preferred Adrian declared that section an outright mistruth (Wolverines I tell ya), and that there are no unnamed sci-fi ham radios (or CB etcetra). I see only downsides to it not being a closed system.

The_Livewire

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #63 on: 13 July 2018, 07:43:59 »

I would guess HPG could be modulating hyperspace at the end point  to create signals that can be detected with correct equipment, probably not quite simple radiowaves. Far from as complex as the HPG itself, but not your everyday stuff either.
Consider how Blackboxes send waves through hyperspace that can carry information, i would guess the effect is analogous but within real universe than just hyperspace.



Hmm, interesting idea.  Could also explain Grey Monday and Fortress Republic, if the cause is super HPGs sending out 'static' and making waves in jumpspace.
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monbvol

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #64 on: 13 July 2018, 08:45:11 »
Well a lot of Comstar's ability to be neutral relied heavily on that they were the only ones able to run the HPG network.

Now true to a certain extent this still works as long as they are the only ones able to transmit but if it takes something more sophisticated than an off the shelf ham radio to receive as well and that technology is also firmly in the hands of Comstar, it does make Comstar's position as a neutral party a bit easier to maintain as there is now even greater risk of damaging something important if someone decides to take over an HPG compound for themselves.

Empyrus

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #65 on: 13 July 2018, 10:56:13 »
Hmm, interesting idea.  Could also explain Grey Monday and Fortress Republic, if the cause is super HPGs sending out 'static' and making waves in jumpspace.
Not sure the Fortress Republic is done with Super HPGs but it is almost certainly done with series of devices (on the account of its shape as much as can be judged from a 2D map, plus TRO3150 refers it was "walls", multiple) that somehow manipulate hyperspace to make it impassable.

Hilariously, if Tucker Harwell was right about his assertion that the Fortress effect is a "blind" (and we take that literally), then it might be bypassable by jumping near it, flying across, and then jumping within the field (something that is certainly possible, otherwise the Republic couldn't get anything done, and we know they can leave the Fortress). Of course, unless you know where the boundary is, this isn't as easy as it sounds.

The Gray Monday effect is likely a similar effect. Given on how large area it, you suggestion of it being caused by Super HPGs is plausible, though given that many HPGs were physically sabotaged (likely to cover up the fact someone is capable of manipulating hyperspace on large scale), i reckon that localized blockers could've been seeded across the Inner Sphere. Maybe not as simple though.

I'll note that earlier use of Super HPGs created the Whiteout, during the Jihad by WoB, done by broadcasting garbage and static, but ultimately the natures of the Whiteout and Blackout are different, which kinda implies Super HPGs aren't responsible (if they are, their use has been radically refined).

Von Rohrs

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #66 on: 14 July 2018, 08:28:42 »
Who said anything about it being firmly in the hands of Comstar? As well if that's the case wouldn't it mean the hands of C*, the Word, the Clans, anyone who got it from the Clans, the houses after Scorpion, anyone who got it from them, possibly the Davions before then, and for good measure that the pack of ruthless genocidal warlords (...and Aleisha Liao) who make up the house lords all hated power so much they also gave C* a monopoly on this tech?

In the same vein the SFHR not literally being hobby gear isn't the same thing as it being HPG II: Electric Boogaloo.
« Last Edit: 14 July 2018, 08:35:43 by Von Rohrs »

monbvol

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #67 on: 14 July 2018, 09:52:34 »
Well Comstar's neutrality was pretty well busted by Scorpion anyway and true the Clans would likely have the gear but again for when Comstar had credibility as a neutral power they were not in the Inner Sphere.

Von Rohrs

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #68 on: 14 July 2018, 19:26:41 »
Then I may have lost the plot. I don't see how the point was dependent on the tech being actual ham radio, or Comstar's monopoly being transmission only helps the plausibility of neutrality (e.g. that risk isn't greater it's less), or other things.

guardiandashi

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #69 on: 15 July 2018, 10:36:50 »
under the old descriptions of HPG's the way I always understood how it worked is that the HPG transmitter aimed in the general vicinity of the destination (typically a planet) but not too close, because of emp effects and then "fire" the message upon arrival al the receivers within range pick up the message, but without the correct decryption information they aren't able to understand the message(s) and sense comstar usually batches them there are megabytes (or more) of messages with each transmission.

idea weenie

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #70 on: 18 July 2018, 02:15:57 »
under the old descriptions of HPG's the way I always understood how it worked is that the HPG transmitter aimed in the general vicinity of the destination (typically a planet) but not too close, because of emp effects and then "fire" the message upon arrival al the receivers within range pick up the message, but without the correct decryption information they aren't able to understand the message(s) and sense comstar usually batches them there are megabytes (or more) of messages with each transmission.

What I could see is when HPGs are being used for live communication, the first signals sent include detailed coordinates of the sender, so the receiver knows where to better aim its reply.  As the live communications continues, the receiver is detecting where inside the chamber it is receiving HPG signals, and includes those in its return message.  This way the sender can constantly refine its coordinates to allow for planetary rotation as the live chat goes on.  The first few communications pulses are the sender refining its targeting data (far enough not to affect the planet, but precise enough to get good data), and then the pulses arrive inside the sealed chamber.

(I.e. sender transmits several pulses and the first few are ~100,000 km away from the planet.  The receiver sends back the coordinates so the sender can adjust its aim.  The next are ~10000 km away from the planet and in the right area to avoid arriving within the planet, and the last few are ~1000 km away, vertical above the HPG station.  Each time the receiver notes the coordinates of where they arrived relative to the Receiving Chamber, and sends those adjustments back.  The final adjustment is from ~1000km away to inside the chamber, to avoid EMPing the local city.  Like a sniper/spotter combo, but the spotter with the radio is sitting next to the target instead of next to the sniper.  Depending on Comstar's abilities, this process might even be automated.)

For the Star League, the HPGs would have two set-ups on a planet, and send data back and forth using this sort of fine-tuning to get low ping rates (compared to the HPG pulse arriving into orbit and dispersing from there).  Then you have the fall of the Star League, and Comstar has to make do with fewer HPGs available.  So HPGs get set up into tree formats to only need 1 per planet, allowing the remaining HPGs to be allocated to more planets.

Von Rohrs

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #71 on: 18 July 2018, 08:53:31 »
Well the EMP effect is apparently only 1 km in size. So that should simplify the process.

Also,
If they were radio waves, It would have been stated in one of the several references, “they’re radio waves” instead of using language like “propagate in a similar manner to radio waves.”
“Appropriate equipment,” not oh, any ole receiver on hand. Several mentions in the sources of “receivers,” not recipients or targets or destinations.
And the only canon mention I can find it interception was by (pre-)ComStar itself.

Strategic Operations Pg.251: "While the “jump” involved
in sending the signal over many light-years carries with it all
the usual hyperspace issues, like I was talking about with emergence
wave detectors earlier, the actual signal is a conventional
electromagnetic signal, generally a radio frequency burst.
Think about that a second: you don’t need an HPG to receive
an HPG message. You need a radio."
&
 "While the radio signals from an arriving HPG burst can
propagate up to 4AU from the arrival point..."


Amongst other things I am now somewhat concerned about the level of funding for intelligence operations in the Inner Sphere,  Pg.210: "...attempting to tap into interstellar communications. Fortunately for the Great Houses, this problem is not insurmountable.
The Kearny-Fuchida principles at the core of HPG technology
involve a degree of electromagnetic propagation that sufficiently
well equipped
agencies can listen to, though this is still extremely
limited;"
« Last Edit: 18 July 2018, 09:07:09 by Von Rohrs »

worktroll

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #72 on: 18 July 2018, 11:34:31 »
IR is electromagnetic. Just you need different detectors. Wave/particle duality, etc etc.

It might be pulsed muons, it might be scatters of neutrinos, it could be some exotic particle/wave phenomenon our science hasn't discovered (spin states in quantumly entangled pairs? Probably not). Pay no attention to the physics behind the curtain ;)

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Empyrus

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #73 on: 18 July 2018, 15:32:10 »
Detecting many particles requires rather elaborate detectors. Like neutrinos are really hard to see, and that is a physical limitation, advanced tech doesn't really make it much easier as increased sensitivity means more sensitive to noise, meaning more shielding is required, or something like that. At least, i'm pretty sure advanced tech (especially BT's "low-tech") won't make neutrino detectors pocket-size, even if they're better and smaller than existing ones.

Regardless of particles involved, this is part of the reason i assume HPG receiver doesn't utilize normal physical device but rather something that scans hyperspace (ie it works by space magic and thus any-size and price detectors can be justified), basically hyperspace radio that just happens to be short-ranged for whatever reason. Justifies "sufficiently well equipped" easily, while not being so complex as to be really limited to ComStar necessarily. (Interestingly, this could easily tie to the Blackboxes, which have limited data rate and signal speed, they could be spin-off from receiver technology. Remember Blackboxes can send and receive, and they are rather small though probably rather expensive and possibly difficult to manufacture.)
Unfortunately that Strategic Ops bit is quite clear-cut, unless we assume the in-universe text isn't necessarily accurate, whether as a simplification or due to in-universe speaker being mistaken. Of course, by strict reading it doesn't specify what kind of radio, just that HPG isn't needed...

Daryk

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #74 on: 18 July 2018, 22:06:03 »
Still glad to know I wasn't completely out in left field (at least until that bit in StratOps gets retconned...).

Von Rohrs

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Re: Intercept H P G transmissions???
« Reply #75 on: 19 July 2018, 01:25:17 »
On the one hand i'd actually read pg.210 as some kind of Van Eck style eaves dropping on the transmitting HPG to resolve the seeming contradiction on the other i'm head canoning all of this out anyway. Cray's insight doesn't go far enough for me.

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