Author Topic: TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold (Read 147779 times)

ColBosch · « **Reply #450 on:** 05 April 2018, 19:25:00 »

We're getting SERIOUSLY off-topic here.

Tymers Realm · « **Reply #451 on:** 05 April 2018, 19:32:44 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 April 2018, 19:24:24

The Awesome isn't an unseen, that's just a concept model for a resculpt.

Well that is the Awesome that's gonna be in the GoAC box and is done in the Classic art style.
And to try and not derail this too much more, while I understand from the CYA aspect of not using unseens in official events, I still don't like it personally. especially I don't care for a number of the reseen designs and the HG trolling has halted the Macross-inspired ones I really want (i.e. all of them...).

Daryk · « **Reply #452 on:** 05 April 2018, 19:47:56 »

Quote from: ANS Kamas P81 on 05 April 2018, 18:50:06

"Official events" the man said. You wouldn't use a bottle cap as a proxy in a Gencon tournament. I'd also point out that we HAVE miniatures (real soon) for the Unseen, so why not use those?
*snip*

"Wouldn't" or "couldn't"? Do official events really go WSIWYG, like 40K? Sorry for the off topic, but I'm genuinely curious...

The_Livewire · « **Reply #453 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:05:19 »

So I take it we're idling until the end of the month for the Judge to reply?

monbvol · « **Reply #454 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:06:53 »

Pretty much at this point.

Moonsword · « **Reply #455 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:11:23 »

Ladies and gentlemen, get back on topic.

The question of CGL's position on Unseen miniatures (or any other miniatures) at official events is not a matter for discussion in this thread. The matter of the Awesome artwork is similarly not germane to the topic of the Harmony Gold lawsuit. Please discuss them elsewhere and do not bring up the topic of the Harmony Gold lawsuit in any thread that may be posted to do so. While I'm on the subject of topics not to be discussed here, please continue to refrain from extraneous commentary on the legal system (including your personal experiences with it) and any unnecessarily colorful commentary on the plaintiff.

Although we are not participating in the discussion, the moderation staff is following this thread closely. We will continue to intervene as necessary to keep this thread on topic. So far, most of the participants in this thread have been commendably polite and restrained given how contentious this matter is to most BattleTech fans.

pensiveswetness · « **Reply #456 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:24:49 »

Contentious? You are being too polite (quit-that!)... Are there other IP's that might benefit from a HG potential loss?

ColBosch · « **Reply #457 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:28:57 »

And I'd like to thank the Moderators for their commendable job in keeping this thread clean and (mostly) on-topic.

Quote from: pensiveswetness on 05 April 2018, 20:24:49

Contentious? You are being too polite (quit-that!)... Are there other IP's that might benefit from a HG potential loss?

Not that I can think of. Hasbro won their case a few years back, and I don't think there's anyone else that has a link to the Macross images.

monbvol · « **Reply #458 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:35:39 »

Probably not. Harmony Gold would still have the distribution rights for Macross until 2021 but after 2021 with how this case looks to turn out?

Macross itself probably would be the biggest IP winner in this whole sordid mess.

Kidd · « **Reply #459 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:44:49 »

Wouldn't a loss for HG lead to even more owed cash from Tat to HG, which means HG probably get a renewed license again in 2021 (or they'll ask Tat to cough up) which means Robotech fans get to "enjoy" HG sitting on the license another 10 years...?

ColBosch · « **Reply #460 on:** 05 April 2018, 20:52:33 »

Yeah, it really would be in the best interests of Tatsunoko and Big West - despite their own mutual animosity - to cut out Harmony Gold and find a new distributor in the US. Robotech will be dead, but Macross will live on. As has been mentioned before, I'd be interested to see if HG does choose to sell the Robotech brand once it's worthless, or if they'll continue to clutch its corpse to their collective chests.

Quote from: Kidd on 05 April 2018, 20:44:49

Wouldn't a loss for HG lead to even more owed cash from Tat to HG, which means HG probably get a renewed license again in 2021 (or they'll ask Tat to cough up) which means Robotech fans get to "enjoy" HG sitting on the license another 10 years...?

You've stated this before, and I still believe it's incorrect. It appears that HG can deduct legal fees from its payments to Tatsunoko, but there is nothing I could find saying that they can "overflow" the royalty payments and force Tatsunoko to pay Harmony Gold. Even if they could, that would be another reason for Tatsunoko to not extend the contract. Tatsunoko, remember, has straight-up sued Harmony Gold and forced them to submit the arbitrator's findings to a US Federal Court, which indirectly gave PGI the "smoking gun" to move to dismiss this lawsuit.

Kidd · « **Reply #461 on:** 05 April 2018, 21:27:09 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 05 April 2018, 20:52:33

You've stated this before, and I still believe it's incorrect.

Pretty sure that weren't me. Oh well. Hopefully HG gets its just deserts in all ways, and Robotech fans get what they've been waiting for.

ColBosch · « **Reply #462 on:** 05 April 2018, 21:43:59 »

Quote from: Kidd on 05 April 2018, 21:27:09

Pretty sure that weren't me. Oh well. Hopefully HG gets its just deserts in all ways, and Robotech fans get what they've been waiting for.

Yeah, I think it was someone else. Sorry about that. Unfortunately, the Robotech fans may be left high and dry.

monbvol · « **Reply #463 on:** 05 April 2018, 22:54:42 »

Slight correction there Bosch, the most recent Tatsunoko Harmony Gold action in the US was instigated by Harmony Gold, not Tatsunoko.

guardiandashi · « **Reply #464 on:** 05 April 2018, 23:01:21 »

I'm not certain its on or off topic, but my understanding of the hg vs Tatsunoko case really boiled down to Tatsunoko was claiming HG was shorting them on their royalty payments HG said they weren't. the arbitrator determined they weren't shorting Tatsunoko on the royalties owed, end of case except for the clarification IN us courts that HG doesn't really own what they have been claiming, and that is where it becomes really on topic because it opens the door for a win against HG due to lack of standing.

Korzon77 · « **Reply #465 on:** 05 April 2018, 23:01:30 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 05 April 2018, 20:52:33

Yeah, it really would be in the best interests of Tatsunoko and Big West - despite their own mutual animosity - to cut out Harmony Gold and find a new distributor in the US. Robotech will be dead, but Macross will live on. As has been mentioned before, I'd be interested to see if HG does choose to sell the Robotech brand once it's worthless, or if they'll continue to clutch its corpse to their collective chests.

Not to mention the hostility on the part of many fans and such to HG.

OTH, with the incresae of overseas ordering, they may feel that the american market really doesn't need a direct distributor, and the objective to removing HG would be to remove any legal obstacles to shops and such buying directly from Japan.

ANS Kamas P81 · « **Reply #466 on:** 05 April 2018, 23:04:22 »

Oh I just found something that explains why Harmony Gold is so damn desperate. They don't lose the Macross rights in 2021...they lose ALL of it.

Quote

Arbitrator finds that Claimant's license in the Programs expires on March 14, 2021 as does their right to produce and/or exploit works based on any of the Programs.

Quote

If the parties, in accordance with the Operative Agreements, do not reach an agreement to extend then Claimant would no longer have the right thereafter to produce and/or exploit any product containing the Programs or any part thereof.

This conclusion is additionally supported by the Steward v Abend case, cited and relied on by Respondent, and the 1976 Copyright Act in that derivative works may only be exploited so long as its license to use the Programs incorporated therein has not ended.

Source: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13613987763006822039

It's about 3/4 of the way down, but they're directly referring to SDF Macross, SDC Southern Cross, and GC Mospeada in those 'Programs.' They not only lose the rights TO the shows? They lose the rights to make new derivative works or followups based on any of them. No Alpha fighters, no Invid, no Robotech Masters. All gone, can't use any of what's been established, even new things like Shadow Chronicles.

March 14, 2021, Robotech dies.

monbvol · « **Reply #467 on:** 05 April 2018, 23:06:23 »

So Macross really will be the biggest winner in all of this come March 14, 2021 if we're interpreting that correctly and I think we are.

ANS Kamas P81 · « **Reply #468 on:** 05 April 2018, 23:11:29 »

Quote from: monbvol on 05 April 2018, 23:06:23

So Macross really will be the biggest winner in all of this come March 14, 2021 if we're interpreting that correctly and I think we are.

No matter what, their current ten year license expires then, pending renewal. And the odds of Tatsunoko renewing the license are 'snowball's chance' levels right now, with the animosity from HGUSA.

abou · « **Reply #469 on:** 06 April 2018, 00:06:19 »

It's an interesting thing to consider. HG's investment in all this is its own psychosis. The agreement with Tatsunoko made sense back in a time when you needed a distributor to move physical copies around to sell; even to broadcast you needed a physical medium. Now with streaming, however, a US distributor isn't even necessary. If anything, Tatsunoko/Big West/Studio Nue stand to gain more money because they can release all those dubs of the various Macross series on something like Crunchy Roll.

By comparison, keeping HG in the loop brings little advantage and mostly just headaches. This doesn't even include the acrimony from the arbitration agreement last year. If it wasn't for being able to deduct legal fees from the royalties, I would be... verklempt?

But with the writing on the wall and the change in media landscape, I think it will be interesting to see this thread necro-ed in a few years when the agreement is either renewed (unlikely) or expired.

Is that on topic? Maybe?

ColBosch · « **Reply #470 on:** 06 April 2018, 00:27:37 »

Tatsunoko/Big West will still want a US distributor for physical items. Believe me, when you're doing business overseas, you need a trusted agent in-country.

I will say that I am learning a LOT from this case. In fact, if I wasn't approaching my fortieth birthday, I'd be tempted to look into law school.

monbvol · « **Reply #471 on:** 06 April 2018, 00:35:57 »

*nod*

Even in this digital age. The complexities of these very issues involved in this case and digital streaming still make it a very good idea to have someone do it for you.

Daryk · « **Reply #472 on:** 06 April 2018, 03:30:16 »

Age is no obstacle to going back to school, Bosch... :)

ColBosch · « **Reply #473 on:** 06 April 2018, 04:28:51 »

Quote from: Daryk on 06 April 2018, 03:30:16

Age is no obstacle to going back to school, Bosch... :)

And if there's any profession where a late start isn't too big a deal, it's law. Well, something to consider.

victor_shaw · « **Reply #474 on:** 06 April 2018, 05:56:02 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 06 April 2018, 04:28:51

And if there's any profession where a late start isn't too big a deal, it's law. Well, something to consider.

I'm 43 years old and back in school for Computer information technology.
My brother is 40 and went back to school for Law and is almost finished.

As for the case.
As has been stated HG needs a win here for two reasons.
First,if they win then they get to charge the court cost over to the Tatsunoko royalties, if they lose the have to eat the cost.
The reason for this is the the agreement allows them to charge off defenses of the property.
If they lose because they don't own the copyrights and that is what they are suing for then they have not meet the contractual obligation to for this write-off.
As they where acting to defend in a sense nothing.

Second, they are on a time crunch with the pending expiration of their distribution licence. Will the movie in development ****, and the failure to launch of their last two series, they have to get something out of this lawsuit.

phoenixalpha · « **Reply #475 on:** 06 April 2018, 06:31:09 »

Do you think if HG lose this case (and subsequent fallout from the case) - that they may go out of business?

VhenRa · « **Reply #476 on:** 06 April 2018, 06:52:13 »

Quote from: phoenixalpha on 06 April 2018, 06:31:09

Do you think if HG lose this case (and subsequent fallout from the case) - that they may go out of business?

No. Because they are a real estate company.

mrbooth · « **Reply #477 on:** 06 April 2018, 07:21:30 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 06 April 2018, 00:27:37

Tatsunoko/Big West will still want a US distributor for physical items. Believe me, when you're doing business overseas, you need a trusted agent in-country.

I will say that I am learning a LOT from this case. In fact, if I wasn't approaching my fortieth birthday, I'd be tempted to look into law school.

I had people in there 40s 50s and one 60 year old in my law school class, go for it.

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #478 on:** 06 April 2018, 08:30:17 »

I sometimes wonder if HG is looking to milk some funds in prep for the ending of their license. with the bad blood between them at tatsunoko right now, if they want to relicense and preserve their robotech IP, they'll probably have to pay a lot more than they normally would. If they win this case they could push for damages and get funds. If settled out court, they can require some hefty payments too.

phoenixalpha · « **Reply #479 on:** 06 April 2018, 09:53:11 »

Quote from: VhenRa on 06 April 2018, 06:52:13

No. Because they are a real estate company.

I know they deal with Real Estate and other things but to be honest, if the judge was to award damages it may sink them - hence the "Hail Mary" defence.