Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth

[I am Belch II]

That is a very awesome photo.
I just toured the Norfolk naval base last weekend, makes me want to build this.

[Nightlord01]

The turret was repaired and already back in action. She almost hit some cruiser with a couple shells, upon which it was decided to sink her wiith a couple bombers.

Don't forget secondary armament. Even if all primary weapons are offline, those secondaries are quite capable of threatening thin skinned vessels and air craft. You don't want them there!

More importantly:

The Jean Bart famously dueled with the Massachusetts,  and the Mass put Jean's turrets out of action so why would they need to sink her?

It's a capital asset of an antagonistic enemy, you destroy it! This is not a mercy is for the weak idea, but a simple attrition of force. You need to be able to destroy hostile assets, ensuring they cannot influence the battle space, either now or in the future.

[I am Belch II]

Don't forget secondary armament. Even if all primary weapons are offline, those secondaries are quite capable of threatening thin skinned vessels and air craft. You don't want them there!

More importantly:
It's a capital asset of an antagonistic enemy, you destroy it! This is not a mercy is for the weak idea, but a simple attrition of force. You need to be able to destroy hostile assets, ensuring they cannot influence the battle space, either now or in the future.

The Jean Bart was in port and manned by French troops that very rapidly changed sides again.

[Kidd]

The Jean Bart was in port and manned by French troops that very rapidly changed sides again.

After Jean Bart was sunk. Not saying its contributory, but that the deed was done while still in the thick of battle and before the surrender.

[kato]

Don't forget secondary armament. Even if all primary weapons are offline, those secondaries are quite capable of threatening thin skinned vessels and air craft. You don't want them there!

She didn't have any. The three triple 6.1-inch turrets aft weren't installed yet, the midships 6.1-inch guns were struck from the design in 1939. Benefitted her actually, since Massachussetts with one shell pierced the empty magazine for those secondary guns.

Her armament other than the single working main battery turret consisted of a motley light AA setup with two twin 90mm, two twin automatic 37mm, one single 90mm and 37mm each and four twin 13.2mm MG. Most of that had only been installed as an emergency uparming in the previous six months, after Jean Bart had been virtually stripped of her AA armament after her arrival in Casablanca.

[Nightlord01]

She didn't have any. The three triple 6.1-inch turrets aft weren't installed yet, the midships 6.1-inch guns were struck from the design in 1939. Benefitted her actually, since Massachussetts with one shell pierced the empty magazine for those secondary guns.

Her armament other than the single working main battery turret consisted of a motley light AA setup with two twin 90mm, two twin automatic 37mm, one single 90mm and 37mm each and four twin 13.2mm MG. Most of that had only been installed as an emergency uparming in the previous six months, after Jean Bart had been virtually stripped of her AA armament after her arrival in Casablanca.

And that single working MGA along with the AA would be all the reason you need! Even without secondaries, she's still dangerous, so you eliminate the threat. Had she powered down the turret and signaled her surrender, then she likely would have been left alone, since she didn't she was sunk, simple.

[JadeHellbringer]

It's worth considering, meanwhile, just how brave it is to take a half-finished battleship with only half her main armament and little else, and try to duel with a modern American battlewagon (with its friends, no less!). It would be hard to blame the crew of the Jean Bart for simply standing down as soon as the Allies showed up, or at least when the Massachusetts hove into view, but they put up a spirited fight- the American ship still proudly shows scars from the engagement in her role as a museum today, in fact.

Quite the effort by the French crew indeed, really. There's no real chance at victory- even if you somehow score that miracle shot that disables or sinks the Massachusetts, there's still Ranger's planes, the guns of the Texas, and a whole mess of other problems- they knew there was no way to actually WIN. That didn't stop them from fighting back with everything they had.

[Cannonshop]

It's worth considering, meanwhile, just how brave it is to take a half-finished battleship with only half her main armament and little else, and try to duel with a modern American battlewagon (with its friends, no less!). It would be hard to blame the crew of the Jean Bart for simply standing down as soon as the Allies showed up, or at least when the Massachusetts hove into view, but they put up a spirited fight- the American ship still proudly shows scars from the engagement in her role as a museum today, in fact.

Quite the effort by the French crew indeed, really. There's no real chance at victory- even if you somehow score that miracle shot that disables or sinks the Massachusetts, there's still Ranger's planes, the guns of the Texas, and a whole mess of other problems- they knew there was no way to actually WIN. That didn't stop them from fighting back with everything they had.

Two less admirable possibilities occur to me to explain it:

1. France had already surrendered to the Germans and they thought they were on the 'winning side of history' to a degree that surrendering to the 'eventual losers' was a bad move for their futures.
2. Suicide attempt.

[Kidd]

One side's "suicide attempt" is another side's "glorious last stand", just sayin'

[JadeHellbringer]

One side's "suicide attempt" is another side's "glorious last stand", just sayin'

O HAI



(No idea why the cockpit looks so odd, but it grabbed my attention anyway. Also... hey Brits? SHOOT BACK.)

[Wrangler]

Here rather handsome warship, Spanish Warship Canarias, a Heavy Cruiser made during the 1930s.
This is a colorized image of the ship.


She and her sistership, the Baleares fought with the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War in late 1930s. They were being fitted out when the war broke out.  I think that's why her mast is so looking like it was cut off in the picture here. The Canarias became the flagship of the Nationalist's navy. Both ships had to do with make-shift fire controls, fought Republic side ships and sank 34 of them. Her sistership was sunk in 1938.

After the war, she had participating in search for survivors of the German Battleship, Bismarck and remained in service until 1975 in  decommissioning.

This is her picture in 1977 sailing under own power to her scrapping. 

[JadeHellbringer]

Interesting note on those Spanish CAs, avid fans will quickly recognize that hull and weapon layout as being the County-class ships from Great Britain. Just with a single large funnel instead of three smaller ones (almost Lexington-esque!) and that big superstructure.

And as Wrangler pointed out, for much of their wartime careers they lacked modern fire control- they ran on the rangefinders on each side of their gun turrets. The fittings for fore and aft controls can be clearly seen, the cylindrical stump atop the bridge structure and the small tower just abaft the mainmast- they just didn't get them for a long time (I believe post-WWII for Canarias, not sure Baleares ever was fitted off the top of my head prior to her loss)

Also note the odd placement of the searchlights, on platforms at the fore and aft ends of the funnel a couple of deck levels above the flush main deck.

[Kidd]

O HAI

YO GO ZA I MAS

Manned suicide cruise missile - it would be stupidly hilarious if it weren't an actual thing.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Interesting note on those Spanish CAs, avid fans will quickly recognize that hull and weapon layout as being the County-class ships from Great Britain. Just with a single large funnel instead of three smaller ones (almost Lexington-esque!) and that big superstructure.

And as Wrangler pointed out, for much of their wartime careers they lacked modern fire control- they ran on the rangefinders on each side of their gun turrets. The fittings for fore and aft controls can be clearly seen, the cylindrical stump atop the bridge structure and the small tower just abaft the mainmast- they just didn't get them for a long time (I believe post-WWII for Canarias, not sure Baleares ever was fitted off the top of my head prior to her loss)

Also note the odd placement of the searchlights, on platforms at the fore and aft ends of the funnel a couple of deck levels above the flush main deck.

Just the turrets' rangefinders for fire control? how much range would that had limited them to?

[Wrangler]

It was a slow day. Then i found this! 

This is cool and i want say hilarious but i can't do that. This is a 1:20 scale manned model of the German Battleship, Graf Spree.
According to the article, she took four years to build and built similarly to a canoe. 

The picture is from a 2006 article and later one is from article from 2012. 



I didn't know that Massachusetts Maritime Academy has class for manned model sized ship for a ship handling course with other course in Paris! 
They use tanker type manned model instead, which looks like kids are driving them instead of most experienced seas captains in the world getting their certificate!  ;D

[HobbesHurlbut]

That look like it sit high on water (waterline on the hull) compared to the real life one.

[kato]

It's worth considering, meanwhile, just how brave it is to take a half-finished battleship with only half her main armament and little else, and try to duel with a modern American battlewagon (with its friends, no less!).

There was actually a battle plan behind that. Jean Bart distracted the heavyweights while the 2nd Light Squadron (a CL, two DLs and five DE) would engage the troopships in a rapid thrust and the eleven submarines in port would sortie to try to sink the heavyweights (Massachussetts, Ranger and heavy cruisers), while the two fighter wings stationed nearby would engage the screen Ranger had up and then assist the forces. Of course that plan did not even remotely survive contact with the enemy.

[JadeHellbringer]

YO GO ZA I MAS

Manned suicide cruise missile - it would be stupidly hilarious if it weren't an actual thing.

You have to keep in mind that this isn't designed for a Western mindset. When dying for your emperor is considered not just a duty but an honor, and you don't have access to the kind of advanced radio technology the Germans (and to a lesser extent the Americans) could play with in terms of the Fritz-X and such, you come up with something like this. It makes perfect sense from that perspective.

Just the turrets' rangefinders for fire control? how much range would that had limited them to?

Sight distance from basically deck level rather than up in the masts, so not nearly as far as a near-sister like the Norfolk could have. More problematic though is that the lack of a director means that all four turrets are firing on local control. Each one is providing its own fire solutions for itself- there's no coordination between them in terms of figuring out range brackets, target to fire on, even timing to fire full salvos- each gun mount is just doing its own thing with only limited direction from higher up ('shoot the second cruiser in the enemy formation'). An actual fire control director is immeasurably more effective for a ship of this era- losing one is absolutely crippling, not having one in the first place just as bad.

I don't have the link handy, but if you look around on a search engine for early director tests the British ran a test of a prototype fire director system aboard the Orion-class HMS Thunderer right before WWI began, pitting that ship and her new setup against the crack gunnery ship of the RN at the time, sister ship HMS Orion. Both fired at the same ranges in the same conditions at the same targets- the director was the only difference. The results were stunningly lopsided in favor of the director, and by the time the Grand Fleet was geared up for war most dreadnoughts had them installed- by the end of the war, nearly every cruiser and up in the RN did, as well as in most other navies.

[kato]

When dying for your emperor is considered not just a duty but an honor, and you don't have access to the kind of advanced radio technology the Germans (and to a lesser extent the Americans) could play with in terms of the Fritz-X and such, you come up with something like this.

The Germans were considering manned cruise missiles too, even a manned ICBM. A single kamikaze attack - involving at least 40 aircraft with suicide pilots - was made by the German Airforce in April '45 against a USAF bomber group.

The "manned torpedoes" and the high-explosive speedboats that the German Navy were using in '44-'45 also had only about a 25% survival rate among crews, even if officially those weren't supposed to be one-way trips; they were originally built after the Royal Navy used midget submarines successfully against the Tirpitz.

[JadeHellbringer]

Very familiar- actually I got to tour a small private museum in Washington (the state) about a decade ago, including a V-1 and a manned V-1. The cockpit is dismayingly tiny- as in, 'adults probably would not fit in here, send in the Hitler Youth'. No joke intended there- no other explanation makes sense.

[glitterboy2098]

considering they were planning things like the He 162 to be flown by Hitler Youth, due to lack of pilots, i wouldn't be surprised.

[kato]

Eh, it's bigger than these.



Problems with it:

• they found out it couldn't dive, so they used them as mostly submersed surface vessels with the cupola above water. Common Allied defense were oil fields on the water, which would render the cupola invisible and the pilot hence without any view outside.
• There was pretty much no navigation gear (as in: the pilot had a compass), but the range was only about 50 nm at 4 knots speed anyway. Operating only at night, so they wouldn't be as visible. Aiming the torpedo went by a simple iron sight.
• When waves were high water could leak into the battery, resulting in chlorine being released. Into the cupola. The cupola could not be opened from inside.

They built 200 units before redesigning it so it could dive - and built another 500 of that version. Loss rates were 60+% in any given scenario, 80% of the crews died at some point.

And in case you're wondering, yes, the top torpedo is a rebuilt version of the lower one. The pilot section ahead of that pretty visible welding seam simply replaced the warhead.

[worktroll]

Let it never be said that the Japanese Imperial naval architects lacked ambition:



The "Giga Battleship". Statistics were:

Dimensions: 609 x 91 x 18m
Displacement: 500.000tons
Speed: 75km/h / 42knots
Main armament: 50x2 41cm cannons
Secondary armament:
* 200x1 14cm Casemated guns
* 100x1 10cm Casemated Guns
* 200x torpedo tubes

Yamato class shown for scale.

I'm reminded of the Polity's larger AI vessels:

“The Polity has moved on since then. Geronamid is an AI sited, mostly, inside one large vessel. That vessel is not allowed to orbit any worlds possessing oceans or crustal instabilities.”

They sat there looking puzzled, then the penny dropped.

[ColBosch]

The attachment can't be hotlinked, WT. Even trying to follow the link brings me to a sign-in page.

[worktroll]

"Oh bother," said Pooh, as he reloaded.

Try this.

[ColBosch]

Holy shit, that looks like something a high school stoner would doodle in his math book while failing Trig.

That is, it looks just like my high school sketches. ;D

[Feenix74]

That engine room would be impressive, a series of engines powerful enough to get a 500,000 ton, 600 m long battleship to 42 knots.

Ambitious is would a typical humble and understated Japanese way of describing that design specification.

[Weirdo]

Holy shit, that looks like something a high school stoner would doodle in his math book while failing Trig.

That is, it looks just like my high school sketches. ;D

So, how's your trig? :)

[ColBosch]

So, how's your trig? :)

I failed it in high school, then had to learn it in the Army as an M1A1 Abrams crewman. So... not bad. :D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wow, that ship looks like something you'd have a boss fight against in Strikers 1945.