Register Register

Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 73581 times)

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
I overlooked the SAM designation, sorry.  Saw this first thing on waking up.
I dunno, it was cancelled, so maybe it ended up becoming an (inadvertent) grid square craterer after all

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
Okay, while I rather like the AMX-30, I will admit its failings, and well...okay, not every idea was a good one.  I wonder if it was supposed to go like a giant shotgun, one big belch of rockets at an incoming.  Though that radar aiming system suggests maybe it'd do better than I'd think...personally I'll still stick with this instead.



1300rpm of 30mm, gotta love it.

Fat Guy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2609
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
A lot of early American jet interceptors were armed with nothing but salvoes of unguided rockets, so for a little while there I could see someone trying this.
I have spoken.


kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
An early US-French attempt at a self-propelled SAM vehicle, armed with 64 unguided 40mm rockets
The Javelot system actually wasn't that early - it was built in 1970 and as a study ran until 1973. Thomson-CSF came up with the idea, Americans financed it entirely, all the French probably did was to provide the AMX-30 hull.

I wonder if it was supposed to go like a giant shotgun, one big belch of rockets at an incoming.
Yes. 8-round salvoes fired in a pre-designated spread pattern. Single-salvo kill probability was supposedly 70% at 1500m.

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
The Javelot system actually wasn't that early - it was built in 1970 and as a study ran until 1973. Thomson-CSF came up with the idea, Americans financed it entirely, all the French probably did was to provide the AMX-30 hull.
Yes. 8-round salvoes fired in a pre-designated spread pattern. Single-salvo kill probability was supposedly 70% at 1500m.
50 years ago is not that early, and yet, it kind of is, isn't it? Considering the other stuff armies are using now which date back to then.

Sometimes I wonder, what did they not put on that AMX-30 hull.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261

Sometimes I wonder, what did they not put on that AMX-30 hull.
Nucl-oh wait.

AMX-30 with an Honest John 25kt SRBM, known as the Pluton.

Really about the only thing they didn't do with it is an APC conversion like the Israeli Nagmashots and their followups.  It's not like the concept wasn't around, but the AMX-30 isn't all that big; I doubt you could comfortably fit an infantry squad and a TC in the space where the turret was.  No rear access either, even if you moved the engine, because the transmission and drive sprockets are in the back as well, so top exit only.

Besides, they had a ton of armored car designs to do that, purpose-built, anyway.

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
Besides, they had a ton of armored car designs to do that, purpose-built, anyway.
The French Army never used those - those designs were all export-only.

For the French: Going from WW2 equipment they introduced the cargo version of the AMX-13 with 3,300 total vehicles in the AMX-VTT (general) and AMX-VCI (20mm gun) basic versions and then kept them until directly replacing the VCI with AMX-10P and VTT with VAB (with Saviem having won with their design over Panhard and over Berliet).

AMX-30 with an Honest John 25kt SRBM, known as the Pluton.
All Honest Johns used by the French Army were returned to the US after the NATO command structure exit in '66. Pluton was subsequently developed as a local SRBM design to replace it and entered service in '74.
« Last Edit: 28 July 2019, 05:41:27 by kato »

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
The French Army never used those - those designs were all export-only.
I meant APCs in general, primarily thinking of the VABs.  Though you're right about the VCI and 10P series, both of which were tracked.  Though a little checking, hrm, I thought the VAB was older than that.
All Honest Johns used by the French Army were returned to the US after the NATO command structure exit in '66. Pluton was subsequently developed as a local SRBM design to replace it and entered service in '74.
Wasn't the Pluton directly based on the HJ?

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
Wasn't the Pluton directly based on the HJ?
Honest John was basically just a warhead strapped onto the spin-stabilized rocket motor of a Nike Hercules, creating an unguided artillery rocket with 25 km range.

Pluton used a rocket motor twice the size and weight with 50% higher speed and five times the range (and of a dual-thrust design), and slapped an intertial guidance system on top.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
I recline corrected.

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851

Here's one wheeled french APC: EBR-ETT. It's a rebuilt Panhard EBR hull with everything but the engine ripped out and a raised roof installed to fit an infantry squad of 14 men (... sitting on the engine) with the CAFL.38 turret with 7.5mm MG from the AMX-VTT added.

Whether they actually bought it - in 1957, same year as the AMX-VTT/VCI - is a bit controversial. What's sure is that 30 were built including 2 prototypes, what's a bit variable in sources is whether the other 28 were originally intended for French service in Algeria (and ditched before deployment) or whether they were always intended to be sold to Portugal (which they were - Portugal used them in Angola).



The EBR in general - as the principal recce vehicle of the French Army since 1951 - was considered not suitable for overseas duty due to maintenance complications. Hence why the AML60 and AML90 were procured in 1959 and 1961 respectively to fill the same purpose as the EBR for overseas duty. Most AMLs, with the end of the Algeria war in 1962, went straight on to reserve units in France (recce bns for territorial infantry divisions) and were literally stowed away from the early 60s to the late 80s.

Panhard also designed a derivative amphibious wheeled APC on the AML hull in 1959 (simply known as VTT) on request of the procurement agency, but that never went beyond the paper design stage. Several years later they picked up that vaporware design to start fully developing the Panhard M3 APC in 1967. That spurred their competition into designing "similar" concepts, with Berliet building their VXB-170 in 1968 and SAVIEM beginning development of the VAB in 1969. Those three are basically the Cold War French wheeled APC portfolio - M3 eventually went to export production, the VXB-170 was built for the Gendarmerie and the VAB won the competition to equip the Army.

Greatclub

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 943
what is with the tires on that thing? is there a reason they're mismatched?

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
at a guess, looks like the outer ones handle the usual stuff and the big metal suckers pull it over the problem surfaces.
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
Yeah, the second and third axles are steel-reinforced aluminium tires that are only lowered for increased offroad traction and reduced ground pressure - and the axles can be individually lowered. The first and last axle have runflat pneus for road movement (and this thing runs 105 km/h on roads).

Both center axles up for road movement on a regular EBR in Portuguese service:



The EBR was based on the 1937 (!) Panhard 201 design, prototype here in 1940 already had that wheel design:



Main modification postwar other than cosmetic changes was that they used a different engine and replaced the old turreted 25mm anti-tank gun with the AMX-13 turret and the 75mm gun of the Panther. For a prewar design it also lasted surprisingly long in French service, only being replaced with the AMX-10RC in the 1980s.
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 04:48:33 by kato »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17042
  • Wipe your mouth!
Wasn't there also a variant that removed the turret in order to mount an 88mm in a casemate?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

grimlock1

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1519


Looks like that unit spent a lot of time on hard roads.  The front tires are bald, but the rears are still in good shape.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
Wasn't there also a variant that removed the turret in order to mount an 88mm in a casemate?
Not aware of any prototypes along those lines.

There was a prototype for a casemate assault gun on the cut-down tracked chassis of the AMX-50 MBT, using the 90mm SA47 DCA45 of the ARL-44 MBT (and a coaxial 20mm gun). Was abandoned in 1953, and followed by a number of projects for the "ELC" light combat vehicle instead until the early 60s, most of which looked like they rather belonged in the 80s visually.

---

The EBR existed with:

a) FL-11 turret with 75mm SA49 gun ("short" barrel) for 1951 batch
b) FL-10 turret with 75mm SA50 gun ("long" barrel) for 1954 batch
c) FL-10 turret with 90mm D921 Mle F2 gun for 1963 upgrade

The relation of the SA49/SA50 to the 7,5cm KwK42 of the Panther was tenuous btw. What's known is that the engineers working on them did take a close look at it, and then probably sequentially switched out and redimensioned about every part until they got what they wanted.

The FL-10 was the AMX-13 turret, the FL-11 "the" EBR turret. Both were of the same oscillating design, but the FL-11 was a bit more bulky and could carry a heavier gun and an autoloader. Somewhat oddly in 1954 they started mixing and matching, building the next batch of AMX-13 with the FL-11 and the next batch of EBR with the FL-10 instead.

Between 1964 and 1966 all FL-11 turreted EBR were upgraded to the FL-10 with 90mm above, and all FL-10 with 75mm were scrapped. The D921 was a variable-pressure gun; the Mle F1 was the low-pressure version mounted on the AML, the Mle F3 the medium-pressure version for the AMX-13 upgraded at the same time.
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 14:01:45 by kato »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 17042
  • Wipe your mouth!
I must be thinking of a different vehicle, then.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2901
  • Live Free or Die Hard

I think it was better that the British Army never built this in real life I mean just look at that big dang gun they called 105mm QF (20 pounder) on her!
https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldofTanks/comments/c6pczl/what_the_heck_is_the_manticore_tier_x_british/ specs and drawings for the tank design known as Chimera (WoT name: Manticore)
« Last Edit: 29 July 2019, 16:18:53 by HobbesHurlbut »
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
That Manticore looks like a Battlemech stepped on a SK-105 Kürassier.

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2901
  • Live Free or Die Hard
That Manticore looks like a Battlemech stepped on a SK-105 Kürassier.
You're not wrong. Manticore is TEN thousand pounds lighter! It's also around 3 feet less on length (not including gun barrel) and about 4 feet shorter (height).
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

Daryk

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12615
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Wait a second... Kato, are you saying the French accurately predicted the '80s back in the '50s?  ???

That's just too hilarious to contemplate...  :D

Kidd

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3535
Now just put a Calliope rocket mount on top, and that's a true Manticore

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
Back to the AMX-30 for a minute, anyone got good pictures of the interior, preferably the driver's compartment?  That's a shockingly hard thing to find with google, so far.

Dave Talley

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2979
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
JA Baker

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
Been through them all, nothing on the -30 series. 

Dave Talley

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2979
damn
figured if anyone had it he would
maybe some modellers out there have something
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
JA Baker

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1851
Googling for "AMX-30 interieur", there are about two video walkarounds of the AMX-30 presumably done by active soldiers during their time and therefore possibly not quite legal; however there's also one post on French forum Maquette Garden - which has everything including a (bad) shot of the driver's compartment, taken on one of the FORAD AMX-30 (OPFOR unit in the French Army, only unit that still operated them as of recent years).

ANS Kamas P81

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10261
Well I didnt' think of searching in French, nice idea.  And I've seen the one interior driver's shot that's really rough quality, but it's better than nothing.

Thanks guys!

 

Register