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Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles version M4 - are we going with that? Sure, man.  (Read 51250 times)

dgorsman

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Am I the only one getting a strong Skynet HK vibe from that picture?

Charlie 6

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Ah the Ontos

BairdEC

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Bore-sighting that thing must have been interesting.



ANS Kamas P81

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Bore-sighting that thing must have been interesting.
Nah, what they did was boar-sighting instead.  Find a wild pig, cap off a few rounds till you hit it, then you know where you're aiming.

Dave Talley

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the barrels had coax single shot 50s for sighting
so you could boar siting and still be able to BBq the rest
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“Toe jam in training”.
I agree. Conditionally. I have no qualms kicking the favorite faction in the crotch--repeatedly. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer to kick EVERYBODY in the crotch as often as possible, like a game of whack a mole, only here's it's whack a crotch. Because we're playing in a wargame universe, and if you're NOT getting kicked in the crotch (repeatedly), then you're not in the ****** game.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Firing the 50 cal tracer into an enemy bunker was often sufficient to de-ass it.

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Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Dave Talley

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if nothing else pop a tracer or two in, wait 15 seconds and pop the flechette round as they run
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”.
I agree. Conditionally. I have no qualms kicking the favorite faction in the crotch--repeatedly. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer to kick EVERYBODY in the crotch as often as possible, like a game of whack a mole, only here's it's whack a crotch. Because we're playing in a wargame universe, and if you're NOT getting kicked in the crotch (repeatedly), then you're not in the ****** game.
- Herb

clansittingducks: is it wrong to want to take a baseball bat to their groin so hard their testicles fly out of their eyes upon impact?

Empyrus

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Nah, what they did was boar-sighting instead.  Find a wild pig, cap off a few rounds till you hit it, then you know where you're aiming.
Can it deal with 30 to 50 hogs in few minutes?
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PsihoKekec

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With flechette rounds it can do that in single salvo.
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DoctorMonkey

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Can it deal with 30 to 50 hogs in few minutes?


I've always understood the "hog" is a nickname for the M60 - I think you might need to reload a belt or two of 7.62mm ball ammunition to kill 30-50 hogs but hopefully wouldn't need a barrel change. Anyway, I thought the US used the FN MAG/M240 for vehicle mounted MGs....
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Sharpnel

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I've always understood the "hog" is a nickname for the M60 - I think you might need to reload a belt or two of 7.62mm ball ammunition to kill 30-50 hogs but hopefully wouldn't need a barrel change. Anyway, I thought the US used the FN MAG/M240 for vehicle mounted MGs....
They do now. A dozen years ago, not so much
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Dave Talley

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Nah, what they did was boar-sighting instead.  Find a wild pig, cap off a few rounds till you hit it, then you know where you're aiming.

yeah
popping a actual boar, if the spotting rifle is used, plenty of pig,
flechette round used, you can probably get enough pork to make a couple tacos
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”.
I agree. Conditionally. I have no qualms kicking the favorite faction in the crotch--repeatedly. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer to kick EVERYBODY in the crotch as often as possible, like a game of whack a mole, only here's it's whack a crotch. Because we're playing in a wargame universe, and if you're NOT getting kicked in the crotch (repeatedly), then you're not in the ****** game.
- Herb

clansittingducks: is it wrong to want to take a baseball bat to their groin so hard their testicles fly out of their eyes upon impact?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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But at least it will be pre-shredded.

Our Officer's Club is better than your Officer's Club.

Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Dave Talley

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But at least it will be pre-shredded.

yep, run a few magnets over it to find bits of flechette and then cook it
:-) 
Resident Smartass since 1998
“Toe jam in training”.
I agree. Conditionally. I have no qualms kicking the favorite faction in the crotch--repeatedly. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer to kick EVERYBODY in the crotch as often as possible, like a game of whack a mole, only here's it's whack a crotch. Because we're playing in a wargame universe, and if you're NOT getting kicked in the crotch (repeatedly), then you're not in the ****** game.
- Herb

clansittingducks: is it wrong to want to take a baseball bat to their groin so hard their testicles fly out of their eyes upon impact?

Kidd

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Picking buckshot out of it is the only downside to fresh wild boar claypot curry.

CDAT

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I've always understood the "hog" is a nickname for the M60 - I think you might need to reload a belt or two of 7.62mm ball ammunition to kill 30-50 hogs but hopefully wouldn't need a barrel change. Anyway, I thought the US used the FN MAG/M240 for vehicle mounted MGs....
They do now. A dozen years ago, not so much

I can not say for sure when they switched to the M240, but the M60 MG has never been used as a tank MG (I am sure there are some exceptions). The M47 Patton used the .30-06 M1919A4, the M48, M60, and M51 used the 7.62x51 M73 before being updated to the M240, and the M1 from day one used the 7.62x51 M240.

beachhead1985

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I can not say for sure when they switched to the M240, but the M60 MG has never been used as a tank MG (I am sure there are some exceptions). The M47 Patton used the .30-06 M1919A4, the M48, M60, and M51 used the 7.62x51 M73 before being updated to the M240, and the M1 from day one used the 7.62x51 M240.

M37 on the M47 and also the M48 early on.

M213 replacing the M73 as time went on and still failing to be a viable weapon.

The M1 had the Hughes chaingun as a coax and the M240 as the loader's gun (loader?)
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CDAT

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M37 on the M47 and also the M48 early on.

M213 replacing the M73 as time went on and still failing to be a viable weapon.

The M1 had the Hughes chaingun as a coax and the M240 as the loader's gun (loader?)

The prototype XM1's had the chaingun but it was switched to the M240 early on, well before type standardization and production. Now if you ask me that was a mistake to switch as with only 55 rounds on the M1/IPM1, or 40 (later updated to 42) on the M1A1 and up there is not enough ammo to be using main gun rounds on MICV's. If you had the 25mm as a coax you would be using it and saving main gun rounds for major targets. But alas they did not ask me.

kato

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I can not say for sure when they switched to the M240, but the M60 MG has never been used as a tank MG (I am sure there are some exceptions).
The USMC used the M60E2 machine gun as coaxials on their M60A1 tanks from the 60s until replacing it with the M240 in 1994 when the M1A1 started introduction with them. They didn't like the M219.

DoctorMonkey

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back to pictures of tanks...


below are a series of photos taken from the Haynes Owners' Workshop Manual for the Chieftain MBT, I hope the photos work and aren't too big or small as this is a bit of an experiment in resizing etc
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DoctorMonkey

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one more, not really a Chieftain but a JagdChieftain!
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beachhead1985

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The prototype XM1's had the chaingun but it was switched to the M240 early on, well before type standardization and production. Now if you ask me that was a mistake to switch as with only 55 rounds on the M1/IPM1, or 40 (later updated to 42) on the M1A1 and up there is not enough ammo to be using main gun rounds on MICV's. If you had the 25mm as a coax you would be using it and saving main gun rounds for major targets. But alas they did not ask me.

Um. No no no.

*THIS* Chain gun; 7.62N Neat weapon; forward ejecting in some versions.

https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/ex-34-chain-gun-eng/
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These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

ANS Kamas P81

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If you had the 25mm as a coax you would be using it and saving main gun rounds for major targets. But alas they did not ask me.
One thing I like a lot about the AMX-30 is that 20mm secondary, especially since it's aligned coax but in its own elevation mount that can go all the way to +40.  Beats exposing your TC and only having a .50 for defense against helicopters.  It can also work over light armor that would stop a typical .30 coax mount and let you save your 105mm ammo for the heavy stuff.

DoctorMonkey

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The Centurion had a 20mm Polsen cannon as a co-axial in the earliest versions and it was promptly dropped.


The realisation was, as with the pre-dreadnought, that an interim secondary armament is a distraction - as a tank you are there to kill other tanks, offer direct fire artillery support (HE rounds from main gun) and suppressive machine-gun fire.


I would expect the opportunity to take the time to realise that you have an IFV or lighter armoured vehicle in your sights, swap over to your secondary armament and engage is a luxury you don't have - either it is a threat, kill it fast (the priority is time to an accurate first round for a kill/your own survival), or it is not a threat, move to next target.


I'm sure I read about the use of training rounds in Iraq to achieve less lethal over-kill, subcalibre training rounds for "sniping" with something more like a .50 cal down the main barrel or training (inert) HESH to knock down walls without bang. In other words, if you have the safety of knowing you don't need to carry ammunition to take on peer threats, you can take your time and make do.
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Sabelkatten

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Well, the problem is if your magazine capacity is so small you can't afforf to shoot the APC because there might be MBTs around...

40 rounds doesn't sound that bad, but some of the proposals with 140+ mm guns and 20-30 rounds might really have needed a backup.

marauder648

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Wasn't the 20mm on the Centurion also basically used as a ranging gun as well for the main armament?
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Kidd

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Yeah well... these days you need something like a 30mm to reliably bust the IFV and you have to respect the ATGMs they're carrying

beachhead1985

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Wasn't the 20mm on the Centurion also basically used as a ranging gun as well for the main armament?

Not the polsten, but the later .50 RMG (Ranging Machinegun) was specifically installed for that reason and was *not* treated as a coax according to Centurion tankers I've spoken to, but was reserved as a special weapon, not just for ranging, but for engaging targets the 20pdr/105 wasn't suited for, in preference to the normal .30 coax.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
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Garrand

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Re: arming tanks with smaller caliber automatic cannons.

Keep in mind that at least in the US your M1s are going to be operating alongside M2s/M3s that have that 25mm cannon. So in a defensive orientation, you'll have the Brads to hose down the IFVs/APCs while the M1s dedicate to killing tanks. So arming them with a 25mm coaxial just means another weapon system to support, possibly reducing the number of main rounds you carry, & creating a situation where the 25mm is overpowered for anti-infantry/suppressive roles. Let the Brads handle the light armor.

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marauder648

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Not the polsten, but the later .50 RMG (Ranging Machinegun) was specifically installed for that reason and was *not* treated as a coax according to Centurion tankers I've spoken to, but was reserved as a special weapon, not just for ranging, but for engaging targets the 20pdr/105 wasn't suited for, in preference to the normal .30 coax.

Ahh yes! Thank you I forgot about that :) I guess at the time it was designed the 20mm on the Centurion made sense as as you could run across half tracks and other light vehicles and the 20mm's perfect for shooting those up without having to use the 17/20lb'er.
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