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Author Topic: This is what I was afraid of...  (Read 3686 times)

jackpot4

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This is what I was afraid of...
« on: 28 April 2018, 00:04:20 »
I am not sure where to begin.  I love the complexity of Battletech but BattletechPC is WAY over complicated.  I feel like I literally just opened up Tech Manual and need to learn to number crunch and then learn all ways all the components can be put together while determining their BV, etc. etc. etc. 

They said that alternating movement and simultaneous combat would be confusing and this is how they set up your home base?  Where is all the voice acting?  Clicking through endless screens of reading about characters and details is not simplified or fun.  I didn't get this game to read a novel. 

As I expected the Gentleman's warfare is a nuisance.  I said it since the day the game was set to be turn based instead of Battletech.  Its move behind, shoot in back, over and over and over and over.  I have no idea how people find it fun for an opponent to walk up, around, and behind you, then stand there and let them hit you.  I simply cannot grasp the mindset necessary to think archaic gentleman's warfare is preferred over simultaneous combat. 

The criticals are lunacy.  I have no idea how many times I got hit by them in just mission 2! 

Besides the endless click and read screens there aren't even enough talking options in mission conversations.  I agreed with the guy and all the options were opposing or ignoring him. 

I got super excited for this game, even upgraded my computer for it and so far I am severely disappointed and I really doubt this game will attract many, if any new players to the tabletop.  The combat is strange and unrealistic through gentleman's warfare, the mechlab is cluttered and confusing, and they really did not get enough voice acting in. 

Yes, I am only two missions in but, so far, I am not impressed......  what a shame.....
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Alexander Knight

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2018, 01:40:49 »
Curious:  What part of tabletop Battletech movement is not turn based?

NickAragua

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2018, 02:05:12 »
Must be the part without initiative order.

I disagree about reading. I like reading. It lets me read as fast or as slow as I want, rather than have to listen to some voice actor drone on and on like a robot for half an hour.

If you get hit by too many crits, you should try to move your mechs further or jump them so you get more evasion arrows. Perhaps also into forests for a 25% damage reduction. Or out of LOS of enemy units. Pay attention to tooltips, they'll tell you what kind of terrain your destination hex is.

Your point about too many back shots leads me to believe you're overexposing your mechs by running them into the enemy formation. I would recommend instead keeping your mechs together and focus fire.

jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2018, 02:26:43 »
Curious:  What part of tabletop Battletech movement is not turn based?

Since the game was released movement hasnt been turned based move and shoot.  Its always been alternate movement of the mech of your choice and simultaneous combat.
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guardiandashi

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #4 on: 28 April 2018, 02:39:31 »
Since the game was released movement hasnt been turned based move and shoot.  Its always been alternate movement of the mech of your choice and simultaneous combat.
That's not totally true actually Solaris 7 the dueling rules from the boxed set was initiative based combat, so it was quite possible to kill an enemy without them getting to respond

Luciora

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #5 on: 28 April 2018, 03:54:46 »
I run 4 mediums and 1 light with a sensor lock pilot currently.  I have the light run up ahead, and the 3 mediums following behind a small distance.  The second the light gets a sensor contact, I keep it as far back as the sensor range allows and then sensor lock it, letting the meds in the rear drop LRMs with impunity.  Sure the recon pilot doesn't get to shoot, but that's not thier assignment.  Haven't been buckshot or caught unawares.

jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #6 on: 28 April 2018, 03:55:20 »
While that may be true for that specific ruleset my comment is directed at the base Battletech rules.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #7 on: 28 April 2018, 04:00:22 »
And in basic Battletech rules on the tabletop it is most certainly possible for a "Conga Line of Death" to emerge.  I'm curious as to why you seem to thing otherwise?

jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #8 on: 28 April 2018, 10:09:59 »
And in basic Battletech rules on the tabletop it is most certainly possible for a "Conga Line of Death" to emerge.  I'm curious as to why you seem to thing otherwise?

Do you not play Battletech very often?  Nothing happens without you getting a chance to react, just like on modern battlefields.  In Battletech PC the active unit does whatever it wants without risk during its turn.  It can run behind you and kill you without you getting the chance to swing at it or use an arm weapon.  Sure, it may open itself to damage by another unit, depending on the turn order but, if timed right the gentlemans warfare shields mechs from threats many times.

In Battletech if you run behind me i can potentially torso twist, hit back, bring a desired unit in, etc all before you get the chance of a killing blow.
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Luciora

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2018, 11:13:42 »
Nowhere did HBS promise a exact tabletop translation of the game.  They promised a battletech game.  I believe there is a mod for tabletop simulator that might do that, but I'm not going to pay for it when I could play Megamek. 

They made an excellent tactical battletech game, much in the vein of Mechcommander 1 and 2. 

As it goes, how they handle movement and weight classes seems to be a decent balance of keeping all weight classes relevant and not have lights outright killed in combat. 

Maybe down the road, HBS or even a modder will release a random initiative game mode, the game just launched and the devs need time to polish what they have now.

ActionButler

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #10 on: 28 April 2018, 11:17:10 »
HBS Battletech was never goong to be MegaMek with nice graphics.  It was always going to be a different set of rules that more closely aligned to modern tactical PC/Tableteop games.  We have known this for months. 

Now, take from that what you will.  It is not a criticism of people who wanted MekaMek with better graphics.  It is not meant as a criticism of people who want Battletech with modern rules.  It is just a fact.

The game is currently sitting at an 80 on Metacritic.  Clearly whatever they did is working pretty well.  It has a 7/10 based on user reviews and most of the criticism there are 1) slow battles, which were inherited from the source material, 2) no cutscenes/voice acting/FMVs, which was inherited from the source material, and 3) technical problems which are unrelated to the source material and possibly the game.

In other words, for those of us who want a 1:1 translation of Battletech-to-PC, we have had MegaMek for AGES. For those of us who want a different flavor of Battletech, HBS seems to have delivered. 
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Daryk

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #11 on: 28 April 2018, 12:01:41 »
I'm in the crowd that was originally expecting MegaMek with better graphics, but don't mind that my Spider is able to DFA a tank and jump away without taking return fire from its lance mates.  The tactics are different, but it's still recognizably BattleTech (even if my machine needs crutches to run it).

NeonKnight

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #12 on: 28 April 2018, 13:16:39 »
HBS Battletech was never goong to be MegaMek with nice graphics.  It was always going to be a different set of rules that more closely aligned to modern tactical PC/Tableteop games.  We have known this for months. 

Now, take from that what you will.  It is not a criticism of people who wanted MekaMek with better graphics.  It is not meant as a criticism of people who want Battletech with modern rules.  It is just a fact.

The game is currently sitting at an 80 on Metacritic.  Clearly whatever they did is working pretty well.  It has a 7/10 based on user reviews and most of the criticism there are 1) slow battles, which were inherited from the source material, 2) no cutscenes/voice acting/FMVs, which was inherited from the source material, and 3) technical problems which are unrelated to the source material and possibly the game.

In other words, for those of us who want a 1:1 translation of Battletech-to-PC, we have had MegaMek for AGES. For those of us who want a different flavor of Battletech, HBS seems to have delivered.

Yeah, I've watched a few youtube reviews and they have all been overwhelmingly positive.

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Alexander Knight

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2018, 13:31:32 »
In Battletech if you run behind me i can potentially torso twist, hit back, bring a desired unit in, etc all before you get the chance of a killing blow.

In Battletech you can torso twist, move in a new unit, etc...but I *still* get the chance to core your rear center torso and you can't stop me from doing it.  The fire phase is no longer simultaneous,and they said that was to give light 'mechs more of a reason to exist.

jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2018, 16:40:55 »
Since the day this game was announced I dreaded that they took the realistic, modernized concept of simultaneous combat and reverted to gentleman's warfare.  Their reasoning was always that it was too complicated, then they went and made the campaign mechlab obviously not caring about complication or the tediousness of reading everything of importance instead of hiring voice actors. 

I do play the game and I will continue to do so but I do not think that gentleman's warfare, in a universe where it has never really existed, makes sense.
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Bedwyr

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #15 on: 28 April 2018, 16:48:57 »
Alright y'all, mod here in an official capacity.

I see very early signs of umbrage at either the merits or flaws of the game being slowly turned toward people holding the opposing opinion. This is not a bar in which the phrase "smile when you say that, stranger" or "wanna *make* something of it?" is a thing. Therefore if you want to debate this, it will be an impersonal, rational debate. Feel free to emote. But be resolute in emoting at the game and not people.

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Alexander Knight

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #16 on: 28 April 2018, 18:57:46 »
I do play the game and I will continue to do so but I do not think that gentleman's warfare, in a universe where it has never really existed, makes sense.

Again, I think you and I have played two different versions of Battletech on table top.  Waiting for your opponent to move and then moving into a position to take advantage of that, even if it means walking around them, is standard rules and tactics.

Now, is it possible that in the computer game a 'mech can be killed before it can act?  Yes.  Is that the same as tabletop?  No.  The reasoning behind this change was explained already, and was known before the game went on sale.

jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #17 on: 29 April 2018, 02:30:08 »
Again, I think you and I have played two different versions of Battletech on table top.  Waiting for your opponent to move and then moving into a position to take advantage of that, even if it means walking around them, is standard rules and tactics.

Now, is it possible that in the computer game a 'mech can be killed before it can act?  Yes.  Is that the same as tabletop?  No.  The reasoning behind this change was explained already, and was known before the game went on sale.

In standard Battletech play the individual gets to decide which mech moves when.  Mechs are moved with each player taking turns.  Yes, one mech can swing behind another but it cannot swing behind and attack free of risk as easily as BattletechPC. 

I understand a reasoning was made and I am simply expressing it was a very poor one in my eyes. 
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Nightlord01

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #18 on: 30 April 2018, 05:54:52 »
In standard Battletech play the individual gets to decide which mech moves when.  Mechs are moved with each player taking turns.  Yes, one mech can swing behind another but it cannot swing behind and attack free of risk as easily as BattletechPC. 

I understand a reasoning was made and I am simply expressing it was a very poor one in my eyes.

And you're welcome to your opinion. The same as everyone else is. I, for one, enjoy the change and think it's made a superior product, an upgraded megamek would never sell because of how slow it is, the slightly streamlined rule set in this game captures the feel of Battletech without being a slave to its peculiarities.

Daryk

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #19 on: 30 April 2018, 18:55:04 »
Probably due to my ancient machine, I don't see a speed increase due to the rules changes.  Back when I was playing table top regularly, I could easily finish three times as many engagements as I can in the time it takes to do one right now (which is to say something over an hour, mostly due to it taking a good 10-15 minutes just to load the map).

pheonixstorm

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #20 on: 30 April 2018, 20:27:29 »
I have enjoyed the game so far, even though there is more text than VA work.

But, for all the faults you find in the game, remember this. This is NOT MECHWARRIOR. It isn't even Mechcommander. This is closer to TT than most other games but still has the limitations of your usual tactical war game. Tired of being shot in the back? Don't close to melee range. Use woods for cover, use the terrain to your advantage. If that still doesn't make it more enjoyable... Don't play. Move on to something else and wait for MW5 Mercs which looks to be better than previous MW Merc titles. I for one am glad to have backed HBS BattleTech. The portrait system is a bit annoying but still worth what I paid. The salvage has its quirks, but the mechlab is fairly simple. Repair or refit, and even refits aren't too difficult compared to the full TM rules.

Nightlord01

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #21 on: 01 May 2018, 04:47:51 »
Probably due to my ancient machine, I don't see a speed increase due to the rules changes.  Back when I was playing table top regularly, I could easily finish three times as many engagements as I can in the time it takes to do one right now (which is to say something over an hour, mostly due to it taking a good 10-15 minutes just to load the map).

Not exactly a binding grumble there mate. :-)

I'm thinking of seeing if I can get Steam to load just this game on my SSD, so it will at least load a little faster. If it still takes a long time though, you could turn off the camera hopping and speed it up that way.

Sir Chaos

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #22 on: 01 May 2018, 07:50:32 »
I have enjoyed the game so far, even though there is more text than VA work.

But, for all the faults you find in the game, remember this. This is NOT MECHWARRIOR. It isn't even Mechcommander. This is closer to TT than most other games but still has the limitations of your usual tactical war game. Tired of being shot in the back? Don't close to melee range. Use woods for cover, use the terrain to your advantage. If that still doesn't make it more enjoyable... Don't play. Move on to something else and wait for MW5 Mercs which looks to be better than previous MW Merc titles. I for one am glad to have backed HBS BattleTech. The portrait system is a bit annoying but still worth what I paid. The salvage has its quirks, but the mechlab is fairly simple. Repair or refit, and even refits aren't too difficult compared to the full TM rules.

Bolded for emphasis.

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Daryk

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #23 on: 01 May 2018, 18:53:46 »
Not exactly a binding grumble there mate. :-)

I'm thinking of seeing if I can get Steam to load just this game on my SSD, so it will at least load a little faster. If it still takes a long time though, you could turn off the camera hopping and speed it up that way.
I've turned off everything I can find to turn off, and wish there were a few switches to throw (looking at you, clouds...).

Nightlord01

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #24 on: 02 May 2018, 03:45:30 »
I've turned off everything I can find to turn off, and wish there were a few switches to throw (looking at you, clouds...).

Oh I'm feeling your pain, but can you really complain when you are using an ancient computer?

Being able to kill the clouds would be nice...

Daryk

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #25 on: 02 May 2018, 04:27:48 »
Complain?  Yes... I mean, this IS the internet.  Getting anything more than catharsis out of it?  Well, this IS the internet...  ::)

Thatguybil

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #26 on: 05 May 2018, 20:42:16 »
OP, I think you've played a very different board game then I have for the last 25 years.

Also I do not understand what "gentlemen" means in the context you are using it. 

captnmartin

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #27 on: 06 May 2018, 16:34:50 »
In Battletech you can torso twist, move in a new unit, etc...but I *still* get the chance to core your rear center torso and you can't stop me from doing it.  The fire phase is no longer simultaneous,and they said that was to give light 'mechs more of a reason to exist.

I read your post and was confused at first, that CBT had changed damage taking place simultaneously.  What you meant with the fire phase not being simultaneous was for HBSBT, not CBT.

Had me worried there for a moment.
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jackpot4

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #28 on: 08 July 2018, 12:53:33 »
OP, I think you've played a very different board game then I have for the last 25 years.

Also I do not understand what "gentlemen" means in the context you are using it.

Standard Total Warfare rules all the way!  Alternating movement and simultaneous weapons fire.  Gentleman's warfare is exactly how it is portrayed in "The Patriot".  I stand there, you move, you shoot at me, then I move and shoot at you if I am still alive when it is my turn.  You can see a clear distinction between modernized simultaneous combat and gentleman's warfare. 

In Battletech you can move behind my guy, sure, but then before you move again I can have any mech within range engage you.  You may survive, you may not, that is your gamble. 

In HBStech, you just move last, shoot the opposing mech in the back and then, given the right perks or weight class, you can move again and save yourself.  It violates the limit of disbelief that your entire lance would stand there and do nothing as a mech runs through your line, shoots your mech in the back, then runs away without ANY retaliation.  Anyway, this is just one problem of the vast many with gentleman's warfare style gameplay and why I won't touch 40K or organized Xwing. 

Total Warfare is the most balanced and fair ruleset I have ever seen.  Everything that happens is based on the dice and very direct.  They tried to reinvent the wheel and (IMO) failed - as far as the gameplay goes.  2-3 adjustments could be made to make the game Total Warfare and it would be infinitely more fun but, they chose the route that would wind up with units dropping off faster for the short attention spans of the current generation of game players. 

Is it fun for a play through every few months?  Sure.  Is it something I will be playing over and over?  No.  And that is what disappoints me most of all.  I am still trying to get MW4 mercs running (18 year old game) over putting more hours into this one and will soon be trying to get MC2 running as well.  I am a diehard Battletech/Mechwarrior fan and a turn-based addition to Battletech (IMO) was the wrong way to go.
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Colt Ward

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Re: This is what I was afraid of...
« Reply #29 on: 25 July 2018, 15:37:26 »
Forget MC2 . . . Micro$haft put all their development money into the looks, the enemy/AI programming is horrible.  If you are really wanting to play, I am not going to tell you the 2 obvious commands they put in the Oppo- but it was a cheap total crap move.  Other than actually playing against the computer, the game is pretty good- its also loosely programmed enough you can adjust it to put in other BT mechs as long as they fit the templates.
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