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Author Topic: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?  (Read 5700 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #90 on: 17 May 2018, 12:41:29 »
FL and Hardened Armors are from TacOps, not Total Warfare.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #91 on: 17 May 2018, 12:43:28 »
Yes, but PSR is a TW rule . . . anyway, it was in the rules forum section even if folks think it should have been in a different sub-forum.  Its not like it was answered in the Ground Combat or Inner Sphere forum.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #92 on: 17 May 2018, 12:44:22 »
Ferro-Lamellor, as well as all other damage-reducing advanced armors, are TacOps. SInce I knew F-L armor was TacOps, I knew that any questions about it had to be found in the TacOps forum, so that's where I searched, so there was no possible way for that other answer to be found.

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but there are reasons why even minor rules like that exist, and people that ignore them for no good reason just piss me off.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #93 on: 17 May 2018, 13:09:27 »
No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor.  IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer.  Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #94 on: 17 May 2018, 13:32:22 »
Guys, guys, we're forgetting the more important issue.  If you're firing cluster ammo from an LB-20X Annihilator at anything with FL armor, CPS is going to take your Annihilator away for criminal neglect not feeding it correctly.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #95 on: 17 May 2018, 13:48:18 »
Guys, guys, we're forgetting the more important issue.  If you're firing cluster ammo from an LB-20X Annihilator at anything with FL armor, CPS is going to take your Annihilator away for criminal neglect not feeding it correctly.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #96 on: 17 May 2018, 13:48:52 »
No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor.  IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer.  Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.
I think there was answer about PSRs and Reflec that basically boiled down "whether PSR happens depend on how many circles you fill", with the Hardened armor being something of an exception since it absorbs more damage but doesn't reduce it.
Presumably the inverse is also true, that is 10 point punch to Reflec armor counts as 20 points and causes a PSR, assuming it doesn't go internal.

This would be in-line how battles are described in novels, where authors usually describe loss of balance being caused by rapid loss of armor and that shifting balance of 'Mech. 20 points of standard armor is 1.25 tons, so i kinda see the idea.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #97 on: 17 May 2018, 13:53:44 »
No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor.  IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer.  Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.

The BMM doesn't appear to have anything explicitly relating to this.

That said, straining to read between the lines, the text does differentiate between "damage value" and "damage". Damage value being the ideal damage an attack or effect would deal, with damage bring the what the unit actually receives. The BMM does also specifically say: "A ’Mech only makes one Piloting Skill Roll for taking 20 or more damage points in a single phase, regardless of how many points of damage is taken that phase." If my reading of that is correct (and I freely admit that it's really questionable), then PSRs are based on what is physically marked off on the sheet. If the intention was for 20 damage prior to mitigation to cause a PSR, I would have expected it to say damage value instead. YMMV, though.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #98 on: 17 May 2018, 16:34:34 »
I had the chance to witness a Stalker II with hardened armor in a game recently.  Everyone kept shooting at it and it just kept coming.  It absorbed huge amounts of damage and just laughed.  I would really hate to be on the receiving end of one or more of those.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #99 on: 17 May 2018, 16:39:54 »
How often did it fall over?  That's the real weakness of the Stalker II: Hardened Armor and a Torso-Mounted Cockpit are an unpleasant combination if you're trying to keep your mech upright.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #100 on: 17 May 2018, 16:43:55 »
Yeah, IMO it sort of forces people to pay for better piloting- which is not something folks usually do unless you have a Cicada ChargeMonkey.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #101 on: 17 May 2018, 16:53:48 »
The other side of it is that if I gave a chess-king unit like a Stalker II to Mechwarrior Jim Bob DerpPilot, it begs the question what photos he has of me as blackmail. That caliber of Mech, particularly in the post-Jihad era, goes to your elite warriors- and if you don't have any to put in it, you probably don't have the Mech for very long either.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #102 on: 17 May 2018, 17:32:19 »
I'll see about sorting the damage modification out, as not even the BMM solves the issue.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #103 on: 17 May 2018, 17:40:35 »
The other side of it is that if I gave a chess-king unit like a Stalker II to Mechwarrior Jim Bob DerpPilot, it begs the question what photos he has of me as blackmail. That caliber of Mech, particularly in the post-Jihad era, goes to your elite warriors- and if you don't have any to put in it, you probably don't have the Mech for very long either.

I agree, and its lance mates should be pretty solid too . . . to test it out in MM, I put it in a lance with a Juliano, Anzu and . . . a Awesome?  I think they were vets, ground down a pair of random Lyran lances.
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #104 on: 17 May 2018, 20:26:01 »
The Stalker II is a creature of weird compromises. While the ELRM is a good and necessary weapon in theory on the tabletop, in practice using it means having at least a 3-4 mapsheet wide battlefield which is... a bit impractical. And weighs a LOT. For a weapon that does maybe 4-7 damage a poke. The ML battery is something that surprised me when I went back to look at it, but backed up by a targeting computer it's the most solid thing about the 'Mech.

I just wish it sacrificed some of that Hardened, went to maybe 120% of normal armor instead of 160ish, to mount a more reasonable array of weaponry.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #105 on: 17 May 2018, 22:50:46 »
It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.

Only if you're the other guy. Having them on your side is a whole other kinda dream...  :drool:
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #106 on: 17 May 2018, 23:12:43 »
The Stalker II is a creature of weird compromises. While the ELRM is a good and necessary weapon in theory on the tabletop, in practice using it means having at least a 3-4 mapsheet wide battlefield which is... a bit impractical. And weighs a LOT. For a weapon that does maybe 4-7 damage a poke. The ML battery is something that surprised me when I went back to look at it, but backed up by a targeting computer it's the most solid thing about the 'Mech.

I just wish it sacrificed some of that Hardened, went to maybe 120% of normal armor instead of 160ish, to mount a more reasonable array of weaponry.

ERLRMs seem to be the new LGR for the FWL region.  Fortunately they're not sticking them on quite as many mechs as they did with the LGR.  They do make some sense on the Stalker II, as they insure that it's almost impossible for an opponent to get to a point where they can plink with impunity.  But against dedicated long-range fighters it's still at a serious disadvantage.  It's definitely a case of dangerous overspecialization.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #107 on: 18 May 2018, 00:03:45 »
I don't hate it like I do some things (Grigori, ugh), but looking at it in Alpha Strike says it all: S3/M4/L2 OV2 with 14 Armor and 7 Structure. Fairly weedy damage for a juggernaut, coupled with its puny TMM and high PV, means that it can be more or less ignored while you break its buddies, and then gang up on it afterwards.

But man, that Viking IIC. Almost it persuades me that Hardened and Assaults can go together. I've been wanting one for my Ghost Bear Dominion force for... quite some time.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #108 on: 18 May 2018, 01:00:12 »
Yeah, that thing's going to bombard you with missiles till the bins run dry, then walk off the field under its own power just because nothing can stop it from doing so.

You know what it really reminds me of?  The Rhino fire-support tank: LRMs and an absurd amount of armor.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #109 on: 18 May 2018, 02:25:07 »
The challenge with retrofitting Mechs with Hardened Armor is finding the mass to carry enough armor to justify the change. Eg swapping FF is probably not worth the effort. Std is one for one, then you have to find weight savings somewhere to get more than juat the penetration bonuses.

That is where the Viking stepped up. Std armor. Clantech LRMs has massive weight savings. Traditionally you would have tried for 4 LRM20s or something but Hardened allowed the Viking IIC to really keep that Viking look and feel. Yeah they could have changed up the leg guns but if you are going to Viking you Viking like a Viking.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #110 on: 18 May 2018, 07:40:25 »
This is why I like hardened armor on quads more than bipeds. Quad turrets are TL now so you don’t have to worry about getting flanked so easily

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #111 on: 18 May 2018, 08:45:52 »
This is why I like hardened armor on quads more than bipeds. Quad turrets are TL now so you don’t have to worry about getting flanked so easily

And the Quad piloting bonus helps pay for the piloting penalty from the Hardened Amror... and Quads limited critical slots mean they can more easily pay the tonnage for Hardened Armor.

Throw in a Torso Cockpit to cut down on ‘pilot loss to head rattling’... yeah.  Quads and Hardened go together like eggs and bacon.  Though like everyone else says, Ferro-Lamellor and Ballistic Reinforced have more general use, due to the lack of crippling drawbacks.  Hardened probably wants a later generation version that trades the movement and PSR penalties for a space penalty.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #112 on: 18 May 2018, 09:44:09 »
Hardened probably wants a later generation version that trades the movement and PSR penalties for a space penalty.

Ballistic Reinforced is described as being the next generation of Hardened. That's about as close as it's going to get, due to the gameplay imperative of making everything sufficiently unique.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #113 on: 18 May 2018, 11:59:18 »
BRA reduces head-cappers substantially, by taking the AC20, UAC20, LBX20, GR and HGR (except at close range) out of the running (and AC10, LBX10 for crit). But still has cERPPC, HPPC and cHLL that can headcap, and the 10 damage laser/PPC weapons will penetrate.

Plus LBX it rounds to a minimum of 1 (so shotgun does full damage, but slug half damage). So isn't as effective against that.  It also doesn't give crit resistance.

Decent, but that is a trade-off.  (I know, why not take the BRA Hatamoto-Suna against the Viking IIC hardened, see how it goes. 2086BV for the -Suna, 2780 for the viking, so make the -suna a 3/4 pilot (2,878) and fight that battle. GR and MRM20s against a ton of LRMs. BRA vs hardened).
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #114 on: 18 May 2018, 12:12:37 »
Well, those LRMs are going to be hosed.  Damage halved, rounding down, means each five point cluster is doing 2 damage at most - that's arguably more effective than hardened is, since you'd mark two and one half circles of damage with it.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #115 on: 18 May 2018, 12:50:23 »
It's a race to see if the Viking IIC can penetrate the Suna's armor before running out of ammo.  The Viking IIC only has enough ammo for 12 rounds of fire, while the Suna can fire its MRMs for 18 rounds and its Gauss for 24.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #116 on: 18 May 2018, 12:59:29 »
Ballistic Reinforced is described as being the next generation of Hardened. That's about as close as it's going to get, due to the gameplay imperative of making everything sufficiently unique.

You arent wrong.  I just find flashbulbs sufficiently common that I find it hard to go for full up Ballistic Reinforced.  If I'm going for 'special tough armor', I tend to either go Ferro-Lamellor or Hardened - because my perception (true or false!) is that if I mount anything that is good against X, most of what it sees will be Y.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #117 on: 18 May 2018, 13:04:32 »
Weirdo's comment about Blue Shield got me wondering . . . do we have any Hardened with Blue Shield?  are they compatible?  would you do it?  How about with the BRA?
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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #118 on: 18 May 2018, 13:28:21 »
Weirdo's comment about Blue Shield got me wondering . . . do we have any Hardened with Blue Shield?  are they compatible?  would you do it?  How about with the BRA?

I didn't see anything about construction limitations in TacOps. So long as the crit space requirements can be met (which would immediately count out Stealth), it should be mountable with any armor, or even CLPS or Null-Sig. If you really want to hate on PPCs, use Blue Shield with Reflective. IIRC, a standard PPC would only do 2 damage, and Clan ERPPCs do 3.

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Re: Hardened Armor: Yes or No?
« Reply #119 on: 18 May 2018, 13:32:03 »
I wouldnt do Hardened plus Blue Shield, I dont think.  You already have such an investment in resilience (assuming full Hardened) that I have trouble justifying pursuing more toughness - a full hardened machine needs to also have some punch, or it is just a large rock.

Ballistic Reinforced?  I might.  Would depend on tonnage - crit slots are starting to get tighter at that point.  But if your Ballistic Reinforced, PPCs represent a greater share of your incoming damage - so it is tempting. 

A lot really depends on threat environment.  If Im fighting omni-heavy opponets, Im more likely to go Ferro-Lammelor or Hardened, because the Omnimechs can more easily change weapons than I can change armor.  If Im building for the Capellans in 3145, Ballistic Reinforced plus PBS would be ideal... the davions love their autocannon, and are pretty big on PPCs if I recall correctly.

A lot of this comes down to who is building the machine, with what tactical doctrine, against what anticipated opponent.  If Im going in blind, something that looks a lot like an Osteon, standard engine, compact gyro, max mounts in head and chest for the ultimate in zombification - is going to be tempting.

 

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