Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?

[00Dawg]

Someone may have to correct me, but I was under the impression that Demo Agents are not required to run their demo games at a FLGS.  Doing so makes things easier (more foot traffic that is already interested in boardgames, access to books and minis for potential new buyers, etc), but that isn't actually mandatory.

I haven't had to report lately, but at one time the reporting system required a location to be entered for an official event, and those locations had to be approved before being added to the selectable list.  For instance, when I submitted a new game store as a location, someone actually with the (at the time) Demo Team checked to see if it existed.

[klarg1]

Random thought as well: I'd love to be a Demo Agent (hahahaha yeah right Tyler: not with RL, School, and work) and introduce new people to BT.... but the two local stores (within 30 minutes of me) are very unfriendly. Theirs two stores within an hour of me that I haven't checked out (and will be doing sometime this summer). Then of course I could try driving two hours to NYC or 2-3 to Boston... not really applicable.

Sadly, I can attest that the monthly public game in Boston will officially outlive its host store in exactly 14 days.  :'(

I am not a Catalyst Demo Agent, but I do my best.

[Crimson Dawn]

Something else to consider might be libraries and community centers, depending on the facility they have rooms that can be taken/requested for activities.

Very much this I am always surprised how many people forget to check their local library.  Sadly quality varies greatly state to state (and of course by community but you would be surprised how much state matters in this regard).  Heck here in Ohio I know libraries where you can check out games, video games, video game systems, portable hot spots, and maker spaces which can include 3D printers (which can be a lot of fun). 

Certainly some libraries have nice spaces that can do well for a gaming event and are worth looking into.  My wife works at one and would love to have somebody do a gaming event there.  She just needs somebody to run the event and people to come in and play.

[abou]

Skimming over that thread, I really like a lot of those changes.

I'm glad to hear that, Butler. We are going to give it a go again sometime soon. Having played Pathfinder, I think the number of dice rolls isn't the problem, but rather the math. Hopefully I can prove that.

[Androsynth]

I wish I had a BT group in here in Washington, all the shops around here just play Magic and Warhammer, neither of which I can stand.

[Col Toda]

It is more frustration than anything else for me . The eternity it took to release all the Core books , the incomplete buggy mech and other unit software . I have playing off and on for decades enthusiasm rises and falls . All it would take to turn things around would be to roll out more product faster

[Weirdo]

I wish I had a BT group in here in Washington, all the shops around here just play Magic and Warhammer, neither of which I can stand.

Washington State?
Your not that far from CGL itself. (Okay, far may be relative, living in Texas has skewed my sense of acceptable driving distances.)

I believe MechCon is in that hemisphere, and while I have no idea where you'd look, there gotta be some feed you can subscribe to or something, and get to pay with the head honchos themselves on occasion.

If you're in the other Washington, there's plenty of folks on this forum in that area who'd probably love another target to shoot at.

[Androsynth]

Washington State?
Your not that far from CGL itself. (Okay, far may be relative, living in Texas has skewed my sense of acceptable driving distances.)

I believe MechCon is in that hemisphere, and while I have no idea where you'd look, there gotta be some feed you can subscribe to or something, and get to pay with the head honchos themselves on occasion.

If you're in the other Washington, there's plenty of folks on this forum in that area who'd probably love another target to shoot at.

Yeah, WA state. I'm about 4 hours driving from CGL, which is a bit too far to drive. I may be able to pick up a game at a convention, but I'm looking for a local one I can just play games on the weekend at. I may have to start my own. Was hoping to play some vets as I'm really rusty, and the last new mech I saw was the original clan line.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How far are you from Portland?  There's a group that meets at Guardian Games roughly monthly.

[Foxx Ital]

Been a few years but I remember the Portland crew to be a good bunch. Guardians is a pretty good store so I visit it every time I go....last month I was in Portland for 3 days and went in every time to buy something. Got a nice karhu!

[Androsynth]

Been a few years but I remember the Portland crew to be a good bunch. Guardians is a pretty good store so I visit it every time I go....last month I was in Portland for 3 days and went in every time to buy something. Got a nice karhu!

Guardian games... That's right, I forgot about them. It's a bit too far to drive for a weekly thing, but I could make it there occasionally. I'll see when they have a BT group. Good suggestion.

[Colt Ward]

Best bet honestly is to check FB and the forum section here.

[Foxx Ital]

Guardian games... That's right, I forgot about them. It's a bit too far to drive for a weekly thing, but I could make it there occasionally. I'll see when they have a BT group. Good suggestion.

 I feel you, I live in Eugene so it's not bad but.i need a good heads up to make it. Here's their fb page.
 https://m.facebook.com/FedCom4ever/

[ActionButler]

I'm glad to hear that, Butler. We are going to give it a go again sometime soon. Having played Pathfinder, I think the number of dice rolls isn't the problem, but rather the math. Hopefully I can prove that.

I look forward to hearing your results.

Personally, I really don't think any one thing is the problem.  I agree that the math, and the ever increasing number of things that people need to keep track of to determine to-hit rolls, is a big part of it, though.  The number of die rolls on a standard attack isn't a huge issue, I think, until you start rolling for clusters or attacking with something with a ton of weapons (the Dire Wolf or my beloved Piranha, for example). 

[Fear Factory]

I look forward to hearing your results.

Personally, I really don't think any one thing is the problem.  I agree that the math, and the ever increasing number of things that people need to keep track of to determine to-hit rolls, is a big part of it, though.  The number of die rolls on a standard attack isn't a huge issue, I think, until you start rolling for clusters or attacking with something with a ton of weapons (the Dire Wolf or my beloved Piranha, for example).

It is worth mentioning that we did notice a big change in the time it took just by changing movement and range, and maybe a slight change in tactics, which is our goal.  Streamline the game without compromising what we all love about it.  Rolling for multiple weapons and missile hits might not be that big of a deal in the end.  I still think the "box of death" for cluster hits (lb-x, missile, etc) is one of the best ideas for speeding up the game, even in the introductory tech level.  Time will tell.

But to stay on topic (there was a point to my rant):  It's hard to find a universal language over the issues with the core game that we can all agree with without angering the loyal player base.  Maybe, frustrating?  Exhausting?  Even if new players are drawn into the game, it is still worth looking at, because like us, I'm sure they will start seeing that time becomes more important as you age.  Alpha Strike is a nice option, but it just does not have that grit it's parent game has.

[Bedwyr]

I look forward to hearing your results.

Personally, I really don't think any one thing is the problem.  I agree that the math, and the ever increasing number of things that people need to keep track of to determine to-hit rolls, is a big part of it, though.  The number of die rolls on a standard attack isn't a huge issue, I think, until you start rolling for clusters or attacking with something with a ton of weapons (the Dire Wolf or my beloved Piranha, for example).

Is there a possible alternative mechanic that would create roughly the same distribution/game balance with much much less rolling? I'm trying to brainstorm a bunch of techniques from regular board games:

- cards?
- token stacking (like cards but with tokens)?
- strict pattern (like a spiral of damage from the location hit)?
- anything else?

[Fear Factory]

Is there a possible alternative mechanic that would create roughly the same distribution/game balance with much much less rolling? I'm trying to brainstorm a bunch of techniques from regular board games:

- cards?
- token stacking (like cards but with tokens)?
- strict pattern (like a spiral of damage from the location hit)?
- anything else?

I know about a lot of these methods as well and I keep them in the back of my mind.  It's why I'm going to use the box of doom when we start getting into later tech bases.

Cards?  Maybe
Token stacking?  Maybe
Strict pattern?  That's a good idea that I did not consider.  I feel like this is done well with the hit location tables as they stand, but maybe we can take a look at those...  widen the arcs a bit so the other tables (Right, Left, Punch, Kick) get used more often.  Or, kind of do a fix like we did for partial cover and just reroll certain locations (reroll leg hits, instead of missing out on damage done).
Anything else?  We're going to try hit dice for TMM's so the math is halfway done.  I figure as you move your units you can place dice down with the terrain modifiers already added.  Then all you need to do is add your gunnery + range to the number sitting in front of the target.

The thing is, I don't mind rolling or doing math.  I just don't want it to take an excessive amount of time (think about skidding or counting hexes to get the best modifier for moving and shooting).  The only thing I won't do is put a timer down, I feel like it's just a lazy and unfair excuse to blame an outdated game mechanic on a player, most of the time...

[Bedwyr]

I do contend that excessive rolling is one of the pain points in getting people excited about the game, especially when it's a multistep process.

One of my main references is a software-engineering friend of mine (embedded/electrical design) who just had to stop the game because his brain would not stop saying "I could totally write a program that would make this go much faster". It killed his imagination. So the longer the process of resolution and the more repetitive it is, the greater the chance of triggering the "why am I doing this?" response in a newbie.

[Colt Ward]

I think there are some apps out there where you just put the info in and it plots it.

[Fear Factory]

I do contend that excessive rolling is one of the pain points in getting people excited about the game, especially when it's a multistep process.

One of my main references is a software-engineering friend of mine (embedded/electrical design) who just had to stop the game because his brain would not stop saying "I could totally write a program that would make this go much faster". It killed his imagination. So the longer the process of resolution and the more repetitive it is, the greater the chance of triggering the "why am I doing this?" response in a newbie.

Absolutely.

I can relate because my pain comes from my love for fast units like the Fire Moth.  It's dreadful having to count hexes efficiently because it is necessary in order to keep it around.  Can't mess up or BOOM.  It's a project on its own...

As far as hit locations?  Yeah, the H made it worse.  Box of doom (I guess it's called 'box of death') helped a lot.

I don't think too much can be done as long as hit locations are kept the way they are.  I'm pretty sure every record sheet would have to be modified excessively, and I want to avoid doing that.

[Kidd]

So the longer the process of resolution and the more repetitive it is, the greater the chance of triggering the "why am I doing this?" response in a newbie.

Be honest. In most of us too.

[iamfanboy]

There are plenty of possible ways to cut down on dice rolling:

1) roll a single hit location BEFORE you roll for which weapons hit: Yes, 'Mechs move around, but say that it locks onto that one spot and deals damage to the area. Not only would this speed up gameplay by cutting dice rolling, but it would speed up gameplay by making things DIE FASTER.

2) Battery fire. Say that each weapon in medium, short, or long shares a single to-hit roll and if you hit with one weapon, you hit with them all. So if you have 3 medium lasers and an AC-20 in medium range, and two ER Large Lasers and an LRM-20 in short range, you roll for the MLs and AC-20 in one roll, and the ERLLs and LRM in another. Perhaps have minimum ranges subtracted from your to-hit for that weapon only, so it might hit with the ERLLs and miss with the LRM if the roll was close enough to a miss. Once again, speed up gameplay by reducing rolls and making things DIE FASTER.

Another benefit: Speed might actually become ARMOR under such a system. If you're making six to-hit rolls with weapons that need 10+ to hit, the odds are going to eventually mean you hit with one or two of them. If you roll once and miss with them all...


Yes, both of those are Battletech heresy. But remember what happened to the last set of people in-universe who worshipped an ancient, dead idea to the extreme? :D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Here's one: start figuring out your targets and TMMs during the movement phase.  People still trying to figure out who they're going to shoot and what they need to do so tends to slow the games I'm in down more than actually rolling the dice does.

[Nicoli]

Here's one: start figuring out your targets and TMMs during the movement phase.  People still trying to figure out who they're going to shoot and what they need to do so tends to slow the games I'm in down more than actually rolling the dice does.

problem comes in that you are normally waiting for your opponent to move their last mech as that is the one that will determine all of your firing. The new computer game's initiative system helps that quite a bit.

[ActionButler]

Here's one: start figuring out your targets and TMMs during the movement phase.  People still trying to figure out who they're going to shoot and what they need to do so tends to slow the games I'm in down more than actually rolling the dice does.

I don't think that doing the math earlier actually addresses the problem.

Its kind of like the Box of Death, thing. Does it speed the game up?  Yes, to a degree.  Is THAT the heart of the issue, though?  Speeding the game up by using tips and tricks and gimmicks doesn't resolve the underlying issues that people have with the game, it just means that the game needs ad hoc hacks to avoid being really slow.  It also means that either A) CGL needs to publish all of these hacks that only veteran players know about in a tips and tricks document or B) new players need veteran players to show them these tricks in-person. 

No, I respect what you are trying to do, I really do, but that doesn't fix the issues with the game, it just tries to hide them. 

Absolute range brackets ala Alpha Strike.  THAT helps the system. 
Not having a multi-column, page long table of to-hit modifiers.  THAT helps the system.
Not having to add one modifer after another after another just because your highest or high tech warmachine is trying to shoot through some trees.  THAT helps the system.

[ColBosch]

I'm tempted by the idea of assuming weapons always hit, and it's just a matter of figuring out if they do damage or not. A system like Ogre or Leviathans, for examples.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think that doing the math earlier actually addresses the problem.

Its kind of like the Box of Death, thing. Does it speed the game up?  Yes, to a degree.  Is THAT the heart of the issue, though?  Speeding the game up by using tips and tricks and gimmicks doesn't resolve the underlying issues that people have with the game, it just means that the game needs ad hoc hacks to avoid being really slow.  It also means that either A) CGL needs to publish all of these hacks that only veteran players know about in a tips and tricks document or B) new players need veteran players to show them these tricks in-person. 

No, I respect what you are trying to do, I really do, but that doesn't fix the issues with the game, it just tries to hide them. 

Absolute range brackets ala Alpha Strike.  THAT helps the system. 
Not having a multi-column, page long table of to-hit modifiers.  THAT helps the system.
Not having to add one modifer after another after another just because your highest or high tech warmachine is trying to shoot through some trees.  THAT helps the system.

My point is that while looking up rules or rolling dice do slow down the game, the thing that seems to slow it down more than anything else is the players who wait and aren't ready when it's their turn.  They're focusing on something else and then have to spend five minutes figuring out what's changed since they last looked at the map or try to decide who they're going to shoot and what all the modifiers are.  When people are focused, the game goes much faster.

[blackjack]

Yeah, WA state. I'm about 4 hours driving from CGL, which is a bit too far to drive. I may be able to pick up a game at a convention, but I'm looking for a local one I can just play games on the weekend at. I may have to start my own. Was hoping to play some vets as I'm really rusty, and the last new mech I saw was the original clan line.

I'm in Spokane. 

We have had some of the same struggles with there being an overwhelming amount of content in regards to rules. We have had several people interested in the game that after they realize they need 3 rather large rule books to play (build mechs) & understand what counters what etc. They turn away. There has been more alphastike played in recent years but again we see a creep in rules & inclusion of every possible weapon /unit/system created.

I would hope that CGL would consider something along the lines of the old Battletech Compendium, a core set of  rules & systems. It has seemd to me that for many years they expanded scope & rules making the game very complicated to play instead of expanding srory line etc.  I know I may be in the minority in my view but battletech started of with giant stompy robots, Tanks, infantry etc were added for flavor etc. Several people that I have played with in recent years insist on mech only games.

[Fear Factory]

My point is that while looking up rules or rolling dice do slow down the game, the thing that seems to slow it down more than anything else is the players who wait and aren't ready when it's their turn.  They're focusing on something else and then have to spend five minutes figuring out what's changed since they last looked at the map or try to decide who they're going to shoot and what all the modifiers are.  When people are focused, the game goes much faster.

Chiming in here, but there is usually a reason why players are unfocused in groups larger than 2.  At least in my case.  BattleTech takes a long time to finish movement and even declare and fire weapons.  While one person is doing this for their turn, the other usually isn't paying much attention anymore because it's so slow.  On one hand, yes they should stay focused because it's just good gaming etiquette.  On the other hand, WHY should you have to force them to do something they clearly lost some interest in paying attention to?

I'm in Spokane. 

We have had some of the same struggles with there being an overwhelming amount of content in regards to rules. We have had several people interested in the game that after they realize they need 3 rather large rule books to play (build mechs) & understand what counters what etc. They turn away. There has been more alphastike played in recent years but again we see a creep in rules & inclusion of every possible weapon /unit/system created.

I would hope that CGL would consider something along the lines of the old Battletech Compendium, a core set of  rules & systems. It has seemd to me that for many years they expanded scope & rules making the game very complicated to play instead of expanding srory line etc.  I know I may be in the minority in my view but battletech started of with giant stompy robots, Tanks, infantry etc were added for flavor etc. Several people that I have played with in recent years insist on mech only games.

They did this with the BattleMech Manual.

[ActionButler]

 C:-)

Alright, guys, I need to put my Mod hat on now.

Before this thread gets too carried away, let me remind you to confront opinions and not your fellow fans.  See an argument that you don't agree with?  By all means, post your disagreement. 

Do not make it personal.

Now, go forth and discuss.
And with that... I will show myself out.