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Author Topic: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app  (Read 2962 times)

Papabees

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In an effort to move play along with Cluster Hits I'm thinking of incorporating this into my games. As a player would that bother you, bum you out, indifferent. I've found it pretty slick for anything that hits multiple locations. And only for locations not the to hit itself. I just wondered about others opinions on the matter?

klarg1

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #1 on: 06 July 2018, 13:12:34 »
A couple of our local players already use a custom Android App for cluster hits, and it seems to work pretty well.

This seems like a good optimization, and much less of a noise hazard than the popular "box of death".
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Robroy

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #2 on: 06 July 2018, 13:13:06 »
I would not mind it. I think it would speed things up a little, and because I never bothered getting around to making a box o death.

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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #3 on: 06 July 2018, 13:13:53 »
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.

I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust.  A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls.  Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.

NeonKnight

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #4 on: 06 July 2018, 13:36:57 »
I like for Clusters (what...I hit with 16 LB20X hits!  :o)

I could roll 16 times or 1 button push!
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Luciora

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #5 on: 06 July 2018, 13:41:55 »
Its all about prior agreement, if all participating players are amicable to the use of the program.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #6 on: 06 July 2018, 13:56:06 »
As long as I had no suspicions of the program being rigged or otherwise nonrandom, and the player always kept the device in the open so fellow players could see each roll clearly(no worries about hiding a bad roll or quickly rerolling before others can see), I'd have no issues whatsoever. If you distrust someone enough that this doesn't assuage you, then why are you spending your leisure time with them?
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NeonKnight

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #7 on: 06 July 2018, 14:38:02 »
If you worry your opponent's dice roller APP is cheaty, suggest to him you use it as well, same with actual dice.
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #8 on: 06 July 2018, 14:46:03 »
My biggest worry is them tapping the roll button again with a bad roll. It is not sanity checked by another player.

Amongst friends I'd allow it, but in a tournament setting I would prefer against it, and if required due to disability would want it face up on the table and rolled with a single touch.
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NeonKnight

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #9 on: 06 July 2018, 15:06:03 »
i know one BT die roller out there makes noise when 'rolled'. an requires a separate tap of a different button to clear the screen
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #10 on: 06 July 2018, 15:34:27 »
[Boring Old Fart (BOF) hat on]

I can’t say I like the idea. As far as I’m aware there is no such thing as a truly random number generator and would rather trust dice I can see bounce accross the table.

Though to be fair I’ve played against guys with weighted dice which isn’t much fun either.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #11 on: 06 July 2018, 16:11:53 »
[Boring Old Fart (BOF) hat on]

I can’t say I like the idea. As far as I’m aware there is no such thing as a truly random number generator and would rather trust dice I can see bounce accross the table.

Though to be fair I’ve played against guys with weighted dice which isn’t much fun either.

It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.

klarg1

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #12 on: 06 July 2018, 16:18:36 »
It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.

Yes.
Any inked & tumbled gaming die is likely to have a measurable bias. You have to go out of your way to get really high quality, random dice. (i.e. with very tight tolerances on their rolling balance)
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William J. Pennington

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #13 on: 06 July 2018, 23:09:52 »
In an effort to move play along with Cluster Hits I'm thinking of incorporating this into my games. As a player would that bother you, bum you out, indifferent. I've found it pretty slick for anything that hits multiple locations. And only for locations not the to hit itself. I just wondered about others opinions on the matter?

I'd prefer it actually. Maybe have a larger tablet, and let everyone share it in case someone has some rather extreme worries about cheating. Its far more likely you'll come across someone with biased dice than someone manipulating a dice roller. I'd be ok with all dice rolls being replaced, including to hit and initiative.

I hink an optimal setup would be a wall mounted display, or something else easily visible. Random is random, who cares if its dice or from a mouse click?

AnejoDave

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #14 on: 07 July 2018, 00:21:17 »
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.

I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust.  A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls.  Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.

:this:
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garhkal

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #15 on: 07 July 2018, 00:36:01 »
I'd be indifferent if it were being used by a player I knew and trusted.

I'd have a full bore hate on for it at a tournament or even casual play with someone I didn't know and trust.  A) It's just "against the spirit" of a game to simulate dice rolls (IMO) but even moreso B) it's too easy to manipulate digital die rolls.  Granted physical dice rolls can also be manipulated... but at least in that case you have a reasonable opportunity to spot the cheating.

Same.  I'd be ok with it in home games, if it was done by someone i knew and trusted, but would NOT trust it in any tournament game..

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #16 on: 07 July 2018, 01:04:16 »
It's a really good idea considering the #1 issue many have is die roles but people have a built in mistrust of in random number generators. Considering how often my table changes out dice (as often as a craps table at the casino) and Hellbie infamously melting his die down in a parking lot after a legendary bad number of rolls, it's fair to say our mistrust in any one RNG, physical or digital, boarders on pathological.

That said; it's really a tool that needs to be accepted to bridge the gap between table top and digital gaming, spirit of the game be damned. It will need to be vetted to hell and back to be excepted at the table. I remember a few people posting they used Megamek on a laptop for GMing large games so community may already have a golden standard for BT community. 
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BiggRigg42

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #17 on: 07 July 2018, 02:26:05 »
I would be upset and insist that I be allowed to use my death box, as shown below. It is like an adult rattle.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #18 on: 07 July 2018, 09:05:43 »
No, I don't even like the idea of people using dice that are "exclusives" much. If the dice seem to be as horrible as they are good, then it helps gain acceptance. If they are always rolling high, then that is going to invite criticism. At one point it actually got 2 people to go out and buy a block of dice in the hopes that everyone would agree to use them.

The most criticism that any of my dice has received were the official BT dice that came out the other year. "I can't see what the numbers are." Was the main complaint, well the only complaint received several times. But, when I'm calling out misses on shots that needed a measly 5+ to hit, it's hard for anyone to feel as though the design is helping me in any way possible, other then to hide just how horrible the rolls are!

Regarding RNGs, I know to much about psychology and sadistics to feel comfortable with them. Its not about not trusting the other person, its about knowing not to trust the other person. People will try to roll dice without declaring what it's for, then act like they were "getting the bad rolls out before making their shot", but next time they roll well they will declare a hit and act as though they did declare or forgot and if you don't trust them then you are the questionable one. I can deal with a lot of fresh fertilizer, but I want everyone at the table to not only have a fair game, but to also have the perception of a fair game on top of it. A lot of fragile egos, short child like tempers, and mistrust can ruin a game fast.

If someone rolls really well on an RNG but nobody declared or saw if it was a single button push then that opens a can of worms. Making sound when one pushes the button? Cute, but that volume can be turned down. Someone can "accidentally" tap it again while trying to show you the results. You might be able to trust someone with a grand sitting on the table, but not trust them to not panic and try to reroll. RNGs are flawed, but so are dice, right? Sure, but I can always have you use my biased dice instead, or have you swap yours out, or I use yours, but I cannot modify your RNG. I cannot modify the perception of a 3rd player by telling you to change RNGs, or reroll the RNG.

In the end its a lot easier to mess with an RNG result then it is to change a roll of dice that is observable by all parties and anyone else that you want to ask to observe as a neutral party. If you are going to be rolling clusters like crazy, you better have several pairs of dice of various designs. Hell, even if you have a lot of them I could just say "roll the dice and write them down and we'll get back to you in a minute". While you could try to fudge the dice rolls someone else is going to be watching out of interest which helps to check anyone that is trying to cheat. Their responses, verbal or body language will give me a means of observing your dice results to some degree. Things are just a lot easier if people can see it.

Playing MM is to agree upon using it's RNG, but it also locks individuals out by doing the dice roll one time. It would be a lot harder to cheat that way then with an RNG on a phone or tablet at a table, especially in a noisy game store where one could turn the sound down.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #19 on: 07 July 2018, 09:26:59 »
As long as the player or players put their phone on the table so everyone can see the result and nobody can get up to shenanigans, go for it.  I’m in favor of anything that speeds up play.  It makes me wonder if CGL couldn’t create an official app for offloading the dice rolling and to-hit calculations to help new players along.  I *think* the Fantasy Flight games have similar companion programs.
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #20 on: 07 July 2018, 12:01:45 »
No problem for me. It's a game. No ones life depends on it. It would be fun to see if whatever gremlin I gave that gives me such terrible dice luck can make the upgrade to electronic dice??.. 😁 But for me, I like the noisy rattle of dice rolling and ruining my cunning strategy!! 😂
Seriously, all the concern here about cheating and angsty bitterness makes me think it's way more likely to be a player issue than a game mechanics issue. I've never sat down to a game saying "now, what's the best way to insure I don't get cheated..." that just sounds like a real buzz-kill. 😕

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #21 on: 07 July 2018, 12:08:58 »
As stated, this is the one I have used in the past for HOME GAMES:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boredrobot.btdice

And below is a screen shot of the 'main' screen.

As you can see, it is all there, visible. And is tracked, and only goes away when cleared. If you really distrust your opponent, tap the button your self for a roll, and then tell him, he can have the next roll to count so there is a 'marked roll'

So, in the picture, you can see, the person is shooting at a mech into it's front arc. The top 4 rolls are standard 2d6 to hit rolls. The app does not know what you need to hit, just that rolled the dice.

Next two rolls ould be using the large HIT LOCATION button on the left side of the screen.

Below is an LRM 20 with Artemis (hence the 9+2), which then rolls for location.

On older tables you can even use the Hit Location and Floating Critical rules out of TAC OPS, but I don;t know if the programmer has change the access for newer devices.

Second image is the CLUSTER TABLE, allowing good things like, rolling for them pesky LB20X :D
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #22 on: 07 July 2018, 12:16:20 »
It doesn't need to be the Platonic ideal of randomness - physical dice aren't. It just needs to be random enough that there's no bias that anyone can be aware of, and any half-decent RNG manages that. I wouldn't use them to encode national security material, but I'm perfectly happy using them for a game.

Agreed, but I’d still rather accept the physical limitations of a ‘real’ dice than accept the ‘invisible’ calculations of a computer.

I’m not going to pretend my position is particularly logical, but I’d be very unhappy to allow my opponent to use an app rather than actual dice. I prefer to see the dice tumble.

Challenger

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #23 on: 07 July 2018, 12:27:02 »
...
Seriously, all the concern here about cheating and angsty bitterness makes me think it's way more likely to be a player issue than a game mechanics issue. I've never sat down to a game saying "now, what's the best way to insure I don't get cheated..." that just sounds like a real buzz-kill. 😕

I guess it depends on how often you're facing the WAAC mindset across the table.  Between having lived through the introduction of the Clans in BattleTech to playing a few editions of 40K to seeing die rolling apps with programmed functions purposely made to cheat the die rolls in hidden windows so the app can stand up to dubious opponents' scrutiny... I'm hesitant to initially trust strangers' sense of fair play when it comes to wargaming.

Call me a pessimist.  If I don't know my opponent, I assume he's WAAC until evidence indicates otherwise.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2018, 12:56:15 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #24 on: 07 July 2018, 13:58:11 »
As stated, this is the one I have used in the past for HOME GAMES:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boredrobot.btdice



I've this one too.  Love it.
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #25 on: 07 July 2018, 14:28:09 »
It's an interesting idea. I don't think I'd have a big problem with it. I don't think I'd really be playing with someone I didn't trust not to cheat in the first place.

It's a total pipedream but I would totally be into something like a TT Battletech app. One that tracked and rolled multiple aspects of the game. Basically a digital record sheet that tracked heat and movement with a dice roller for attacks. That would be pretty neat.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #26 on: 07 July 2018, 19:05:52 »
If my opponent needs to cheat in order to enjoy a casual game... ok? I’m not going to stress about an app. If it’s over a series of games I’ll catch onto the dishonesty.

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #27 on: 08 July 2018, 08:26:06 »
I worry less about outright dishonesty than my fudgy fingers accidentally re-rolling or erasing the roll.

“Oh, sure—pass me your phone and I’ll write it down?”
“You bet. Here—“ (finger slip) (re-roll) “Uh...”

I’ve had similar problems with MTG life-tracker apps, both when I’ve used them and played against those who did. It was far too easy to accidentally finger-fudge one too many or one too few life off. That led to debates about what life totals were before the change, etc. The “convenience” of an app ended up costing more time than just the pen and paper I always use now.

But, anything is better than the shake-box. I encountered it for the first time at a local game maybe six months ago, and it was instant Excedrin time.
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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #28 on: 08 July 2018, 09:04:44 »
I looked at the BT dice roller app after it was linked here. Accidentally deleting roles with it isn't exactly easy. So you should be save there.
Nice app, btw
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Papabees

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Re: How do you feel about players using the BT dice roller app
« Reply #29 on: 08 July 2018, 09:32:12 »
Agreed, but I’d still rather accept the physical limitations of a ‘real’ dice than accept the ‘invisible’ calculations of a computer.

I’m not going to pretend my position is particularly logical, but I’d be very unhappy to allow my opponent to use an app rather than actual dice. I prefer to see the dice tumble.

Challenger
Yep. this is the one if I go this route. Pretty slick and hard to screw up.

 

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