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Author Topic: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons  (Read 2911 times)

dragonkid11

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Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« on: 18 July 2018, 11:27:26 »
I was just checking out advanced battlemech melee weapon and see if I could make unique mech design for my AU setting until I saw the lance which has so many favourable stats over hatchet that I wonder why nobody used it more.

Seriously, it deals as much damage as hatchet while being lighter, it also has a chance to get through armor critical hit.

Why don't people use it more?

Also, I making this thread because I literally cannot search the word lance without people asking for something else entirely...
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #1 on: 18 July 2018, 11:47:47 »
#1: It is advanced tech (rules level advanced).
#2: Hatchet has a -1 to hit, lance does not.
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dragonkid11

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #2 on: 19 July 2018, 02:05:59 »
And nothing else?

I mean, you could just design a mech armed with one in the fan design section or just put it in megamek.

Does it have any other drawback? Like not benefiting from TSM?
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AJC46

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #3 on: 19 July 2018, 03:21:38 »
the lance has a +2 to hit penalty making it harder to land a hit.

garhkal

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #4 on: 19 July 2018, 14:35:18 »
Does it do extra damage if you charge with it?
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #5 on: 19 July 2018, 15:30:22 »
Only if you're on a Balius.
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #6 on: 19 July 2018, 15:40:45 »
For some clarification on the lance:

As per TacOps p.89

Lance has a +1 to hit (compared to -1 for a Hatchet), is also increased by TSM. (This is where the +2 mention comes from, it is +2 compared to hatchet)  As per TacOps Errata page 51, it is a +0 to hit, still can be increased by TSM.

As per TacOps p.290

Lance does tonnage/5 damage. It rolls 2d6. on a 10+ it marks 1 internal structure off and rolls a crit chance with a -2 modifier (aka: 10+ for a crit).

So it is harder to hit with, needs 2 rolls of 10+ to give a crit as well.

It is considered Experimental for rules.
« Last Edit: 20 July 2018, 11:30:45 by RoundTop »
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Empyrus

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #7 on: 19 July 2018, 16:33:44 »
It is considered Experimental for rules.
I'll add to that it becomes Advanced in 3083 per TROProto though it never gains TL status, staying Advanced even in TRO3145.
Not that there's much practical difference between Experimental and Advanced.
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dragonkid11

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #8 on: 20 July 2018, 05:11:18 »
One would think that reinventing a pointy rod won't really take such herculean effort that it ended up being experimental.
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Alsadius

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #9 on: 20 July 2018, 07:37:31 »
One would think that reinventing a pointy rod won't really take such herculean effort that it ended up being experimental.

We're also talking about a game where you can only cut a limited number of holes into the side of your ship, and where the light machine gun and heavy machine gun took over a millennium to invent after the advent of the regular machine gun. Don't think about it too hard.

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #10 on: 20 July 2018, 08:04:37 »
Don't think about it too hard.

Sage advice for the btu in general

On a related note, I’ve used the lance via the Night Stalker and the crit chance is booboo. 10+ to crit and then -2 on the crit roll. Combined with the lack of negative to hit mod it’s just not a good weapon.

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #11 on: 20 July 2018, 08:28:52 »
Why did wob put two on a nyx. That's what I want to know
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dragonkid11

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #12 on: 20 July 2018, 10:04:38 »
Why did wob put two on a nyx. That's what I want to know

Yeah, that's a bit weird. Could you even use two lances or even other melee weapons that aren't fists and claws in one turn?
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Brakiel

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #13 on: 20 July 2018, 11:02:57 »
For some clarification on the lance:

As per TacOps p.89

Lance has a +1 to hit (compared to -1 for a Hatchet), is also increased by TSM. (This is where the +2 mention comes from, it is +2 compared to hatchet)

As per TacOps p.290

Lance does tonnage/5 damage. It rolls 2d6. on a 10+ it marks 1 internal structure off and rolls a crit chance with a -2 modifier (aka: 10+ for a crit).

So it is harder to hit with, needs 2 rolls of 10+ to give a crit as well.

It is considered Experimental for rules.

That's weird. The BMM lists the Lance as having a 0 mod for to-hit (Physical Weapon Attacks Table, Page 38 and/or 137).

Empyrus

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #14 on: 20 July 2018, 11:22:29 »
Why did wob put two on a nyx. That's what I want to know
Because the MWDA iteration was purely melee 'Mech, or something like that. Hell, it might have gotten description in a novel, meaning stats really had to be fitted to idiocy.
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #15 on: 20 July 2018, 11:29:51 »
That's weird. The BMM lists the Lance as having a 0 mod for to-hit (Physical Weapon Attacks Table, Page 38 and/or 137).

Ahh. TacOps errata page 51 mentions it is only a 0 mod (+1 from the hatchet).
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Demon55

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #16 on: 23 July 2018, 10:24:27 »
I generally stick with punching or kicking as the weight and space for a melee weapon could be better allocated to ranged weapons, ammunition, heat sinks, jump jets or armor. 

In the games I have played rarely did I get to use the melee weapons on the mechs that had them.  They are niche weapons.

Brakiel

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #17 on: 23 July 2018, 12:45:51 »
I generally stick with punching or kicking as the weight and space for a melee weapon could be better allocated to ranged weapons, ammunition, heat sinks, jump jets or armor. 

In the games I have played rarely did I get to use the melee weapons on the mechs that had them.  They are niche weapons.

Well, yeah they're niche. Same way that, say, Flamers are niche. Slapping on melee weapons is not going to be a universal solution like slapping on Medium Lasers would be. No one's going to be arming an Archer with a Hatchet.

But on the right design, they create a credible threat bubble that has to be respected, similar to how AC20 mechs tend to draw attention. Consider: a 50-tonner with a Hatchet and TSM can deal 20 points of concentrated damage for 4 tons and 10 crits. That's really dang efficient, and that's not counting the side benefit of the movement increase. You'd not want to risk being near that for too long, unless you can burn it down quickly.

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #18 on: 23 July 2018, 13:57:59 »
Very true. Melee weapons are often more useful for their psychological effect than for their actual damage. Moving away from melee units negates the damage potential, but can become an exploitable pattern of behavior. If on a regular basis you refuse to move any units next to my melee guy, that's six hexes you've ceded to me, and I can move him to essentially take control of areas larger than otherwise possible. If I hold an Axman or Berserker's movement until last and you avoid that mech's most likely end points, then even without dealing any damage points, that hatchet has seized large areas of territory from you.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #19 on: 23 July 2018, 14:22:52 »
that hatchet has seized large areas of territory from you.

Very, very disappointed in you. At least you could have gone with "cut into your territory" or "chopped off your deployment area".  :-\
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #20 on: 23 July 2018, 15:02:39 »
Takes too much time. Before chopping off my opponent's deployment area, I need to consult with their spouse, and obtaining some form of medical certification might be wise.
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monbvol

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #21 on: 23 July 2018, 15:07:42 »
*nod*

The numbers are never favorable as far as mounting physical combat weapons but the non-quantitative value does tend to keep them relavent.

garhkal

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #22 on: 23 July 2018, 16:08:48 »
I generally stick with punching or kicking as the weight and space for a melee weapon could be better allocated to ranged weapons, ammunition, heat sinks, jump jets or armor. 

In the games I have played rarely did I get to use the melee weapons on the mechs that had them.  They are niche weapons.

That's the comment most players seem to have.  While useful in their specific niche, melee weapons just are not worth the tonnage allocation (OR Crit space taken up).
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #23 on: 23 July 2018, 16:46:37 »
I can't even begin to count the number of people who run from my No-Dachi. :) But they eventually get tired and it catches up. :)

Honestly, I think it is partly the thought of the damage hitting anywhere. Take the aforementioned No-Dachi, it has a sword, which isn't the best melee weapon, but on a NDA, it does 16 points of damage with TSM active, with a -2 modifier.  Most mechs don't want to take a 16 point hit to one location. Yes, it could punch for 2x14 damage, and on the punch table too, but psychologically the sword is scary because of the -2.

So if I have a 4 pilot (you better believe I upgrade the pilot), and have TSM active, I can run 9 hexes to you and take a swipe without paying for my run.  Or if I feel like it, a 28 point kick (that tends to take legs off).

For the Hatchetman, that is 9 points of damage with a -1 to hit. Nothing to sneeze at, especially if it can get behind you.
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #24 on: 23 July 2018, 17:07:08 »
I will note that Talons with TSM might be worth their investment, especially on a machine large enough to take off legs reliably and mobile enough to create a large threat bubble.

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #25 on: 23 July 2018, 20:52:01 »
The more I see the threads the more I am realizing that as much as I like hatchets and even maces they aren't really worth the tonnage. 
That said cleaving big mechs in two is always immensely satisfying.   

I am these days when I want to melee looking more twords weapons that don't use the main hit location table. 
For the most part that means claws and the retractable blade.   
If your pilot is good enough to take the accuracy hit with the claws they can do nasty damage. 
The blade being able to generate crits seems to make it worth it's own weight. 

One thing that I think is not factored in enough on these threads is that a machine that is built to use melee weapons should be fast, and likely a good jumper.   
If used in a target rich enough environment that it has a good chance of chasing down a target, with the initiative system, it should probably be able to position itself in the rear of it's target.   
Lets face it getting a melee weapon shoved into a rear torso is pretty bad, nearly as bad as a head hit. 
With the claws/blade that is a 4 in 6 chance of massive damage. 

I am thinking of graduating to talons except for the two issues A:clan tech and B: with TSM that is a quad level kick which just seems unfair.

dragonkid11

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #26 on: 24 July 2018, 00:54:19 »
All melee weapons would certainly be way more devastating if all of them besides talon would have punch hit table instead.

Imagine a 1 to 6 chance of having someone axing you a question straight to your face.
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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #27 on: 24 July 2018, 07:57:42 »

That said cleaving big mechs in two is always immensely satisfying.   

And Iceweb nicely summarizes BattleMech Melee weapons in general. ;)

Sartris

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #28 on: 24 July 2018, 09:54:33 »
All melee weapons would certainly be way more devastating if all of them besides talon would have punch hit table instead.

Imagine a 1 to 6 chance of having someone axing you a question straight to your face.

For a mere +3 they can. Is that a tacops rule? Is it even a real rule?  I’ve been playing with it so long as standard in my games I forgot whether it was advanced or not

Full body table for melee is merely an representation of what is lost in abstraction. A mech isn’t just waiting politely to be smacked. A leg hit might be an unsuccessful dodge where the melee weapon misses the mark on a torso but catches the target right below the hip on the follow through

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Re: Lance versus Hatchet and maybe other melee weapons
« Reply #29 on: 24 July 2018, 09:58:54 »
For a mere +3 they can. Is that a tacops rule? Is it even a real rule?  I’ve been playing with it so long as standard in my games I forgot whether it was advanced or not

Full body table for melee is merely an representation of what is lost in abstraction. A mech isn’t just waiting politely to be smacked. A leg hit might be an unsuccessful dodge where the melee weapon misses the mark on a torso but catches the target right below the hip on the follow through

Tw. Swords and hatchets can make a called table shot to either punch or kick table at a +4 (then minus their usual modifier)
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