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Author Topic: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?  (Read 8705 times)

grimlock1

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #180 on: 13 February 2019, 12:23:20 »
the only problem with chipping away is that the clan mechs are chipping away with 10-15 point chunkers as they run in to gut you with ER mediums

the 10th point of armor is a good sign whoever designed them is a genuine jerkface
It's not the 10th point so much as the gorilla inside that is too hopped up on Hero Juice to realize he's got about 90 seconds to make it back to an aid station before the three sucking chest wounds and 2 perforated arteries catches up with him. :-)

Note that the 10th point of armor was introduced after TRO3050... Originally, 10 points killed an elemental. (OK, technically it always had 10 points of armor. Originally destroying the armor put the BA out of action.)
Wha?
I thought they were introduced in TRO 3050.
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Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #181 on: 13 February 2019, 12:39:06 »
Wha?
I thought they were introduced in TRO 3050.

they were from a game perspective and the 11th point has always been integral

From the original TRO: 3050 pg 234

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #182 on: 13 February 2019, 16:00:28 »
they went from 11 (numbered 10-0) to 10+1.  only the numbering changed
No-Dachi has a counter-argument. Nothing further? Ok.
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BloodRose

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #183 on: 13 February 2019, 20:58:16 »
they went from 11 (numbered 10-0) to 10+1.  only the numbering changed
Either way still evil, considering that they now require more firepower than some lighter mechs to deal with, each.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #184 on: 13 February 2019, 21:26:44 »
Really?  The Stinger 3G can take 11 points of damage to the CT and still be functional if it was not crit.  Throw in it can survive arms and side torsos being blown off- each side for a total of 9 & 12 points of damage before it transfers to the CT and the argument is quite suspect.

When they came out they only had reliable firepower out to 9 hexes.  It was not until late in the game they got something out to 9- way after the IS started using Support PPCs, Magshots and Reccoilless Rifles.
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Greatclub

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #185 on: 13 February 2019, 22:38:49 »
Other end of the luck spectrum, WSP-1W takes 9 damage to a leg and it's a credible threat to nothing the rest of the game.

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #186 on: 13 February 2019, 23:00:32 »
an elemental point also has a higher BV than either of those walking garbage bins

Colt Ward

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #187 on: 14 February 2019, 00:56:38 »
an elemental point also has a higher BV than either of those walking garbage bins

Yes, but they are talking about a single suit being tougher than a whole mech- and that is just not the case.  Even that Wasp taking the hit to the leg is going to pass any more damage to the torso and not be dead like the 11 points a Elemental suit would die from.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #188 on: 14 February 2019, 04:10:14 »
they were from a game perspective and the 11th point has always been integral

From the original TRO: 3050 pg 234

Actual rule (pg 225):

"Each suit of BattleArmor has an armor value of 10 points. For simplicity's sake in BattleTech, the armor is considered to be a single "location". If all armor is destroyed, the Elemental trooper inside is out of action."

And it was obviously still intended to work this way in TRO3055 as the Komodo is specifically able to kill a whole point with its 10 MLs.

What I was never able to find was what was supposed to happen to any leftover damage after killing one BA. After all the only similar situation back then was losing a location on a mech, in which case all leftover damage transferred... The 11th point on the record sheet also confuses things - misprint, or is the last point the trooper?

Colt Ward

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #189 on: 14 February 2019, 11:15:01 »
00 is the Trooper and out of action does not mean dead (Harjel baby) just that the trooper is combat ineffective IMO.

Damage transfer?  The sheets of the time had arrows showing how it transfered IIRC . . . and this does not.
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grimlock1

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #190 on: 14 February 2019, 12:03:35 »
00 is the Trooper and out of action does not mean dead (Harjel baby) just that the trooper is combat ineffective IMO.

Damage transfer?  The sheets of the time had arrows showing how it transfered IIRC . . . and this does not.
Okay, now I'm wondering if I've been doing it wrong....
I've always treated Elementals as needing 11 points to take out of the game.  So in 3050, the only ways to one-shot an Elemental are AC/20s, Gauss, or cER PPC.  Are we now saying that a Toad that takes an AC/10 is now an exceptionally large and muscular grunt, running around the battlefield in his skivvies?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Colt Ward

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #191 on: 14 February 2019, 12:14:08 »
Well, that is how I interpreted the quote from TRO3050 g 225.

But yeah, its 11 points of damage to take out the Elemental (or whatever for BA) but just like mechs, 'destroyed' in the game does not mean truely destroyed since you can salvage armor (roll 10 or better) and like infantry you can medically save some of the 'dead' infantry troopers.  I am not sure if Clan suits, or at least those equipped with Harjel, get a better chance to save the troopers.
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Weirdo

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #192 on: 14 February 2019, 13:25:56 »
Okay, now I'm wondering if I've been doing it wrong....
I've always treated Elementals as needing 11 points to take out of the game.  So in 3050, the only ways to one-shot an Elemental are AC/20s, Gauss, or cER PPC.  Are we now saying that a Toad that takes an AC/10 is now an exceptionally large and muscular grunt, running around the battlefield in his skivvies?

You've been doing it correctly. An Elemental that has taken ten points of damage is still fully functional for game purposes, though you are obligated to make jokes about large people in nothing but skivvies(or less).
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #193 on: 14 February 2019, 17:41:45 »
Yes, the current rules are quite clear; you have to destroy the last point as well. And there is no damage transfer.

It's the original rules that were quite clear that you didn't have to destroy the last point. But didn't tell you a thing about what happened to any leftover points. :P

BloodRose

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #194 on: 14 February 2019, 20:03:20 »
Yes, the current rules are quite clear; you have to destroy the last point as well. And there is no damage transfer.

It's the original rules that were quite clear that you didn't have to destroy the last point. But didn't tell you a thing about what happened to any leftover points. :P
The last point is bull. If the suit is slagged then the trooper inside should be out of commission too, gene bred or not. As it is that last point is the dick move that lets a Elemental withstand a 10 point PPC or AC10 hit and laugh.
The Marauder MAD-3r. A mech of perfection and beauty, a walking duellist and a monster on the offensive.
Or at least it would be if someone would stick more heatsinks in!

massey

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #195 on: 14 February 2019, 20:35:51 »
I'm pretty sure Elementals have always taken 11 points to destroy, even in the original printing.

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #196 on: 14 February 2019, 20:37:13 »
armor values are an abstraction that aren't required to conform to your perception of what they should mean. If the trooper has 0 armor and is still alive, it means the suit is operational. i'll take this over having crit tables for BA. It's bad enough protos have them.

and yes, it's a dick move. a masterful one that still pisses people off decades later. legendary.

Colt Ward

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #197 on: 14 February 2019, 20:47:33 »
The last point is bull. If the suit is slagged then the trooper inside should be out of commission too, gene bred or not. As it is that last point is the dick move that lets a Elemental withstand a 10 point PPC or AC10 hit and laugh.

 . . . abstract . . . you want that level of detail where parts of the suit stop functioning and to track its ammo for MGs, etc play AToW RPG.
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truetanker

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #198 on: 14 February 2019, 23:13:48 »
Well I'll tell you HOW I think about the 10+1...

10 for the Armor, it wears off as it should be, and +1 for the armored Ablative Underwear their seen in, think of shorty wetsuits.

They are wetsuits that cover the complete torso, upper arm and upper thigh part of your body... consider them Neo-Kevlar ballistic clothing. Same material as the MechWarrior clothing... And then don't forget to remember that a possible crossover to this : it's a halfsuit... while a full suit would equal to the classic Clan Infantry battle uniform... Armor Divisor of 2. ( Meaning this cloth covering everything AND includes a Ballistic plate armor for the Shins, Vanbraces, Helmets and Torsos, including Pelvic plates...

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Sabelkatten

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #199 on: 15 February 2019, 20:48:10 »
I'm pretty sure Elementals have always taken 11 points to destroy, even in the original printing.
As I quoted the rules very clearly said 10 points and out. Why it was changed to 11 points is anyone's guess.

grimlock1

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #200 on: 15 February 2019, 20:54:45 »
Well I'll tell you HOW I think about the 10+1...

10 for the Armor, it wears off as it should be, and +1 for the armored Ablative Underwear their seen in, think of shorty wetsuits.

They are wetsuits that cover the complete torso, upper arm and upper thigh part of your body... consider them Neo-Kevlar ballistic clothing. Same material as the MechWarrior clothing... And then don't forget to remember that a possible crossover to this : it's a halfsuit... while a full suit would equal to the classic Clan Infantry battle uniform... Armor Divisor of 2. ( Meaning this cloth covering everything AND includes a Ballistic plate armor for the Shins, Vanbraces, Helmets and Torsos, including Pelvic plates...

TT
All I really care is that an Elemental that takes and AC/10+1 LRM is out of the game, but one takes an AC/10 can still kill me.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #201 on: 15 February 2019, 21:50:53 »
I’m guessing the +1 came in on the BA rules standardization around BMR. They probably needed a way to boost IS suits without using weight. The change made the elemental hilariously tough

massey

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #202 on: 16 February 2019, 19:53:27 »
As I quoted the rules very clearly said 10 points and out. Why it was changed to 11 points is anyone's guess.

I pulled out my old copy of Tech Readout: 3050, and sure enough it says 10 points.  It was published in 1990.  Then I looked at my old copy of the Battletech Compendium (the one with the Ghost Bear Mad Cat and Elemental on the cover), and it says 11 points of armor.  That book was also published in 1990.

So whatever the reason for the change, it happened really fast.

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #203 on: 16 February 2019, 19:59:09 »
between may and september of 1990. maybe the tro was a mistake and they eratta'd it before sending the compendium to print.

massey

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #204 on: 16 February 2019, 20:10:09 »
There are a couple of other differences as well.  The TRO says that they don't take attacker movement mods, and they are unaffected by elevation changes less than 4.  The Compendium says they do take attacker movement mods, and specifies that they have jump movement.

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #205 on: 16 February 2019, 20:13:23 »
angry writer mad his draft of the rules wasn't selected for the TRO and slipped revisions to the printer at the last second?

BloodRose

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #206 on: 16 February 2019, 22:00:18 »
I kind of wish the 11th point was more fluff. As I said before, by that point the suit is basically none-functional and slagged, so in reality it should be removed from the point. That final point should only matter in campaigns and represent whether the guy inside lives and just needs a new/repaired suit or is a smoking greasy stain on the grass somewhere, and you need to find a new BA trained fighter as well as a brand new suit.
There, now you have abstraction that works and does not give the middle finger to IS forces.
The Marauder MAD-3r. A mech of perfection and beauty, a walking duellist and a monster on the offensive.
Or at least it would be if someone would stick more heatsinks in!

Sartris

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #207 on: 16 February 2019, 22:22:58 »
A mech can still jump down from a level six hill safely with one operational jump jet, one point of internal in the leg and intact criticals. “Basically slagged” isn’t a concept in the rules - it’s either operational or destroyed

Also re-litigating 29 year old decisions is stale. Being mad about clan stuff like this is like still going on the internet to be mad about the ending to Newhart

massey

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #208 on: 16 February 2019, 22:44:47 »
The ending to Newhart was awesome.

The way I've always head-canoned Elementals is that the last point represents dude, and internal structure.  The 10 points of armor literally represents armor, and all the functional stuff is covered by that last point.

BloodRose

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Re: Strategy for IS fighting Clans?
« Reply #209 on: 20 February 2019, 08:49:08 »
The way I've always head-canoned Elementals is that the last point represents dude, and internal structure.  The 10 points of armor literally represents armor, and all the functional stuff is covered by that last point.
Huh, now that is an idea that makes sense.
The Marauder MAD-3r. A mech of perfection and beauty, a walking duellist and a monster on the offensive.
Or at least it would be if someone would stick more heatsinks in!

 

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