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Author Topic: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?  (Read 4170 times)

abou

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Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« on: 07 September 2018, 12:07:21 »
I know some people have really been down on the cluster hits table complaining about the die rolls. But having experienced the nastiness of SRM boats -- floating crits, head hits, and general crit seeking -- has me thinking. And that thought is whether the maligned Gargoyle Prime is actually... good. Although unlikely to actually have all 23 individual strikes hit, that is a lot of location rolls. We all know the Prime would tear apart vehicles and infantry, but would it disable 'mechs through die rolls of 2s and 12s rather than simple destruction?

Has anyone experienced this in game?

Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #1 on: 07 September 2018, 12:21:06 »
I guess the one thing it has going for it is that the BV is about the same as an IS medium - which is only about 200 more than the gold standard of Mr "All the Missiles" Arctic Wolf.

In general, I've used a lot of SRM/shotgun boats. They're great sandblasters for vees or crit seeking but if your plan is to TAC someone to death, you're putting your fate in the hands of the fickle, fickle dice gods.

23 individual strikes hit,


statistically improbable. you're probably only getting 5-10 plinks depending on shot difficulty.

Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #2 on: 07 September 2018, 13:28:41 »
Couple of things to consider . . .

are you comparing it to dueling other Clan mechs?
are you comparing it to IS mechs it was likely to see in the original invasion (mostly 3025 stuff until late)
are you comparing it to IS mechs it would see in the invasion retcon?

Against other Clans . . . the Gargoyle is going to run into the problem of the ERPPC, Gauss Rifle and cERLL having nearly the same or better ranges and most mechs will have the same speed or better- those that do not will typically be armed with those same range/more damage weapons.

Against the original 3025 using invasion?  It can keep up with many light mechs and will massively outrange them while the 5 pt LBX slug hit matches what they could do with MLs if the Gargoyle ever let them get close.  Against meds, heavies & assaults?  Good luck getting your PPC in range on the 3/5 or 4/6 mech- AC/10s, LL and ML batteries have a worse problem.  Its sort of like a heavy cruiser with the armor/firepower reversed- it can outrun (and range) anything that is better armed and catch anything with less armor/structure.

Against Invasion retcon?  Well . . . how well its going to do is dependent on what you allow the IS to field in that campaign and how its employed.

But I still hold with the Gargoyle Prime BEING the Prime as a anti-veh & AA platform b/c it was the best option among common configs to deal with the massed armor of the AFFC's RCTs.
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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #3 on: 07 September 2018, 14:37:44 »
AA it's a good platform. Good vee hunter (though I'd probably take a Black Hawk B or an Arctic Wolf if given the option). But against mechs except those that it heavily outweighs? ish.

i don't factor the indefinite clan range advantage because i've never been in a place that allows me to set up a map that large or devoid of enough terrain to allow a unit to fire every turn from 20+ hexes while the enemy closes. assuming long range + 3 gunnery + walk, that's 8s. probably 9s or 10s if it's retreating from a 4/6 or 3/5 heavy / assault. So you're hitting with 40% on average with the slug at best. that's optimistically 40 damage - which, barring optimal clustering isn't bringing down shit.  you're actually better off closing with most IS mechs  in the early invasion because they either can't hurt you as much as you hurt them or suffer from heat issues. in a Tukayyid-type scenario, stay away from units that will end you like a Black Knight or Flashman.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #4 on: 07 September 2018, 16:04:01 »
Yeah, its a 3025 light & medium mech hunter with a pair of 8 hex short range MLs backed by some SRMs.  Its got about the same damage potential as the Griffin 2N- just the PPC dmg is split.
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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #5 on: 07 September 2018, 16:21:51 »
a role that always perplexes me. a light / medium pilot has no obligation under zell to accept a challenge from an assault mech. Also I think a Dragonfly or Vixen is far better suited to that role.

personally, i *love* the D config. i think that's where ceding the tonnage to the 5/8 engine actually makes sense.

Terrace

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #6 on: 07 September 2018, 16:42:13 »
This discussion just makes me think that the Inner Sphere first spotted the Gargoyle fighting vehicle and infantry-heavy formation, and called the configuration it was sporting for that the Prime.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #7 on: 07 September 2018, 17:34:45 »
It isn't worthless, but its load out is one that isn't useful unless you are dealing with vehicles.  I played one last year in the world wide event and used it to deal with vehicles and infantry.  The force commander was giving me crap for it but I turned two tanks into pill boxed which later got waxed.  If one of those lbs been a ppc or large laser that would give the design a bigger bite.  An ATM even makes sense, but they didn't exist in 3050.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #8 on: 07 September 2018, 17:42:01 »
This discussion just makes me think that the Inner Sphere first spotted the Gargoyle fighting vehicle and infantry-heavy formation, and called the configuration it was sporting for that the Prime.

Which is why I said . . . AFFC . . . RCTs . . . considering we are told there are 3 or 4 armor regiments per single mech regiment- a configuration set to go after armor so that Timberwolves, Ice Ferrets and Adders go after mechs.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #9 on: 08 September 2018, 23:23:37 »
The Man O' War Prime is an utter waste for an 80 ton mech.  It's an okay vehicle and BA hunter, but that's really a job for a mech half its size.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #10 on: 09 September 2018, 01:26:34 »
I'm not sure that the Gargoyle Prime is good per se; it would be more correct to say that there are things it's good at. But it is, as other's have pointed out, a waste of an assault 'Mech. This is not a thing you use assault 'Mechs for; there are a million better ways to do the things the Gargoyle Prime is best at better than it does.
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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #11 on: 09 September 2018, 01:38:02 »
I’d say the A should be the prime but the clans already have enough dual erppc hell machines.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #12 on: 09 September 2018, 02:22:35 »
Well it should be noted that the A was almost as common as the Prime in the fluff, IIRC.

And as Colt pointed out, this thing is the Primary Wolf-Assault mech & the Wolves are smart & knee deep in facing FedCom RCTs & FRR Militias in their invasion corridor.

You can say that a mech 1/2 its size would be just as good, but I'm not so sure, an Adder lacks the Armor to tangle with more than 1-2 tanks like Manticores before it has to retreat & lacks the pod space to pack in lots of LBX cannons.

The Gargoyle-Prime would have little difficulty facing off against a Lance of them & immobilizing them all before they landed enough shots to hurt it.

Something fast like an IceFerret-Prime is IMHO more useful striking & retreating from IS Heavy's with its ERPPC & tearing holes in them for the Elementals to then crit hunt it to death.

T-Wolves just crush anything in their path & aren't "that" much better than a Garg-A but if I have to put 1 of my 2 5/8 Cav monsters into "Anti-Vehicle" duty, I'd rather it be the Garg than the sheer perfection that is the T-Wolf.

My only real complaint about the Garg-Prime is that they went just a tad too far to the point that it doesn't use those 16 fixed engine Heatsinks.
I think dropping off 1 of the LBX's for an ERLL & a trio of ERML's would go a long way to making it a much more potent machine & give it something to fall back on when the AC's & SRM's run dry.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #13 on: 09 September 2018, 05:35:27 »
Some years ago I noted that there is one 5/8 clan mech that's perfect for the Gargoyle Prime's config - the Hellbringer!

Underarmored as it is sniping at tanks is really the perfect job for the Hellbie. And it's even got enough pod space to add a third AC to the armament! ;D

Ruger

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #14 on: 09 September 2018, 08:54:56 »
Some years ago I noted that there is one 5/8 clan mech that's perfect for the Gargoyle Prime's config - the Hellbringer!

Underarmored as it is sniping at tanks is really the perfect job for the Hellbie. And it's even got enough pod space to add a third AC to the armament! ;D

Hmm...that brings to mind an evil idea...

Yep...that works...maybe not as many SRM's on one of the ideas, but with two big long range guns to make big holes for the rest...

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« Last Edit: 09 September 2018, 15:20:17 by Ruger »
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #15 on: 09 September 2018, 15:00:47 »
Some years ago I noted that there is one 5/8 clan mech that's perfect for the Gargoyle Prime's config - the Hellbringer!

Underarmored as it is sniping at tanks is really the perfect job for the Hellbie. And it's even got enough pod space to add a third AC to the armament! ;D

Yeah, I can get behind this.

My favorite custom pods for the Hellbringer all involve lots of long range guns,  LPLs, LRMs, ERLLs, LB5X's, & Arrows abound.

This is also why the E is my favorite cannon configuration  (I think that is the one w/ HAG, ERLL, & LRM)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #16 on: 09 September 2018, 15:46:02 »
One thing to also remember is the way the Gargoyle is set up, it can haul Elementals to the fight without sacrificing any of its firepower- if you are going after armor & infantry formations, this becomes important since it keeps any faster armor from being able to rush as well.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #17 on: 09 September 2018, 16:00:21 »
Again, that's still not a job for an assault mech.

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Sabelkatten

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #18 on: 09 September 2018, 16:02:29 »
Yeah, I can get behind this.

My favorite custom pods for the Hellbringer all involve lots of long range guns,  LPLs, LRMs, ERLLs, LB5X's, & Arrows abound.

This is also why the E is my favorite cannon configuration  (I think that is the one w/ HAG, ERLL, & LRM)
I equipped one with, IIRC, one ERLL, 5xATM3 and 2xLB2-X. Did pretty well with something tougher in front of it. Essentially a clantech Jagermech... ^-^

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #19 on: 09 September 2018, 16:55:37 »
Again, that's still not a job for an assault mech.

Agreed, but I also don't consider the Gargoyle to be an "Assault" mech.

It has the weight class but its the same as the rest of the Clan Heavy Cavalry mechs.

When I make "Assault" stars they might have a Gargoyle in them, but its not the anchor, that is always a DireWolf & usually with some WarHawk & Kingfisher backup.

Its more like the 3050 Charger than a proper "Assault" mech.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #20 on: 09 September 2018, 17:18:33 »
When I field an 80 ton mech, I want it to be able to use it to take on other mechs of a similar size.  Hence why the Man O' War Prime is terrible: it's stuck doing anything but fighting other mechs.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #21 on: 09 September 2018, 23:40:35 »
Keep in mind that your own preference for what you want to use a mech for is different from what it's supposed to be used for; Even if it is an 'Assault-weight' unit, doesn't necessarily mean it was ever built to fulfill the same role as your typical assault. Kind of the polar opposite of a Gunboat light. Just use it as an excuse to broaden your tactical options.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #22 on: 10 September 2018, 00:35:31 »
When I field an 80 ton mech, I want it to be able to use it to take on other mechs of a similar size.  Hence why the Man O' War Prime is terrible: it's stuck doing anything but fighting other mechs.

Which is why there is the A & D configurations,  plenty of mech hunting in those.

I've used the A to hold off a Warhawk-C, Guillotine-IIC, & FireFalcon-B at the same time, mostly based on good cover & fear of twin ERPPCs pulling off a box cars & removing something early.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #23 on: 10 September 2018, 01:24:57 »
Keep in mind that your own preference for what you want to use a mech for is different from what it's supposed to be used for; Even if it is an 'Assault-weight' unit, doesn't necessarily mean it was ever built to fulfill the same role as your typical assault. Kind of the polar opposite of a Gunboat light. Just use it as an excuse to broaden your tactical options.

That would work if it was bringing something to the table that a lighter mech couldn't.  However, the answer to that question is no: a lighter mech can carry the same or better firepower at the same speed and meet or beat the Man O' War's armor level. Therefore, the Man O' War Prime especially is objectively a bad mech.  This doesn't make it a useless mech, it still can do the job, but the question being asked was whether it was a good mech, not whether it was a useful mech.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #24 on: 10 September 2018, 02:04:18 »
a lighter mech can carry the same or better firepower at the same speed and meet or beat the Man O' War's armor level. 
1 OmniMech does that in the same era.   The TimberWolf.
Hardly some tiny smaller useless light/medium.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #25 on: 10 September 2018, 02:34:13 »
The fact that the Vulture and Loki also have glaring flaws does not make the Man O' War's go away.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #26 on: 10 September 2018, 09:29:52 »
In general, I've used a lot of SRM/shotgun boats. They're great sandblasters for vees or crit seeking but if your plan is to TAC someone to death, you're putting your fate in the hands of the fickle, fickle dice gods.

But unless you're JadeHellbringer, this may not be a bad thing. ;)

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #27 on: 10 September 2018, 10:51:01 »
It is a shame that the invasion was at the same time fleshed out and yet so limited. Between the Jade Falcon, Wolf, and Invading Clans sourcebooks, they closed the door on a lot of things so quickly by giving so much detail on what forces were present and how the conflicts went down. It would have been nice if that was going to happen, we saw more fighting against conventional forces -- even just a blurb in a sourcebook or a few paragraphs in a novel. Something to justify the Prime config.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #28 on: 10 September 2018, 10:55:04 »
The fact that the Vulture and Loki also have glaring flaws does not make the Man O' War's go away.

And neither have twin LB-5X in any canon configuration . . . if you DO take them in range to use the SRMs, then their thin skin is going to get poked at pretty hard . . . additionally, as I mentioned, most of their weapons are in the torso which means they are masked carrying Elementals in close.

Finally, the primary user of the Gargoyle- the Wolves- were facing those RCTs and did not have very many Hellbringers or Mad Dogs compared to their neighbors during the invasion.  The Gargoyle is still going to be fast enough to have a edge on the masses of 3/5 and 4/6 armor the Wolves were likely to face and left Ice Ferrets and Adders to hunt down light & medium recon/strike mech lances.

Plus after wrecking the armor formations, a short stay in the mech bay gets that Prime switched around to a A, C or D to go break the mech forces.  Or vice versa.

abou, look at the details of each world's invasion.  For example, WCSB has a Wolf supernova or so hitting a 12th Star Guard merc regiment and a armored brigade as the defending force on Icar.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #29 on: 10 September 2018, 20:11:31 »
That would work if it was bringing something to the table that a lighter mech couldn't.  However, the answer to that question is no: a lighter mech can carry the same or better firepower at the same speed and meet or beat the Man O' War's armor level. Therefore, the Man O' War Prime especially is objectively a bad mech.  This doesn't make it a useless mech, it still can do the job, but the question being asked was whether it was a good mech, not whether it was a useful mech.

I'm going to disagree with you a bit here.  The Man O' War isn't a perfect design.  It's an 80 tonner, after all.  And there's basically nothing an 80 tonner can do that can't be made more efficient by going either up or down 5 more tons.  So it isn't perfect, but that's a standard that very few mechs can ever achieve.  A mech can be "good" without being 100% optimal.

It seems to me that the Man O' War Prime would have been a response to Inner Sphere vehicle units.  Especially under the old vehicle damage rules, two LB-5 Xs would be murderous.  The Man O' War's job would have been to engage vehicles outside of their range and fire until its ammo bins ran dry.  It could engage with Warrior VTOLs as well, since the LB-5 has the same range as the AC-2.

From that standpoint, it's pretty good.  It's not the absolute best -- it'll never be a MadCat, that mech is just a better chassis.  The MadCat hits all the design sweet spots and the 80 tonner doesn't.  But you really don't want to equip your MadCats for the limited role that the Man O' War Prime is fulfilling.  It is serving a necessary purpose in warfare, but not a glorious one.  But it's still necessary, and it's very good at that job.

What it boils down to is the Man O' War is a solid design in most of its configurations.  It's just not quite a MadCat.  So when you invade the Inner Sphere and find they've got hordes of vehicles, you need a heavy cavalry mech that can tear apart a tank company and swat away VTOLs.  So you take your "almost a MadCat" mech and give it a very specialized loadout.  And then it ends up being so useful that the Inner Sphere commanders think of that as its prime configuration, not knowing that it was basically an ad-hoc solution to the vehicle problem.

So is it good?  Yes, it's very good at what it's supposed to do.  But it's not the most efficient mech possible, because of in-universe reasons.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #30 on: 11 September 2018, 16:36:10 »
And neither have twin LB-5X in any canon configuration . . . if you DO take them in range to use the SRMs, then their thin skin is going to get poked at pretty hard . . . additionally, as I mentioned, most of their weapons are in the torso which means they are masked carrying Elementals in close.

Finally, the primary user of the Gargoyle- the Wolves- were facing those RCTs and did not have very many Hellbringers or Mad Dogs compared to their neighbors during the invasion.  The Gargoyle is still going to be fast enough to have a edge on the masses of 3/5 and 4/6 armor the Wolves were likely to face and left Ice Ferrets and Adders to hunt down light & medium recon/strike mech lances.

Plus after wrecking the armor formations, a short stay in the mech bay gets that Prime switched around to a A, C or D to go break the mech forces.  Or vice versa.

abou, look at the details of each world's invasion.  For example, WCSB has a Wolf supernova or so hitting a 12th Star Guard merc regiment and a armored brigade as the defending force on Icar.

The Wolves also have quite a lot of Adders, don´t they?

The Adder B has only one LB-X/5 instead of two, but it also has a large pulse laser, which has the advantage of accuracy - always important when fighting fast hovercraft or VTOL at long range - AND it is a far better hole-puncher than anything the Gargoyle Prime carries. Not to mention the Adder B also has two ER medium lasers to punch holes, and a flamer for anti-infantry work and whatever arson a battle plan might call for.

So I would rate the Adder B as somewhat more than half as effective at anti-vehicle duty, and almost as effective at anti-VTOL duty, while still being able to outfight any IS mech of the time that it cannot outrun - hell, I´d give to close to even odds against the Gargoyle Prime itself, or better if it can stay out of SRM range.

And all that comes at less than half the weight of the Gargoyle Prime, 10% less BV, and a bit over one-fourth the cost of production.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #31 on: 11 September 2018, 16:42:25 »
That was my assessment of the adder b as well.

Ultimately the Gargoyle prime fails my devil’s advocate test for mech assessment - people rarely praise something unless it’s being called junk.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #32 on: 12 September 2018, 02:25:09 »
Adder-B is a solid design, but, would you take it against a pair or Platoon of Medium tanks?

Because under the old BMR rules, the Gargoyle-Prime might pull that off, but, I'm not so sure the Adder-B would.

A few well placed LRM & PPC hits & its going be hurting.

And at only 10% less BV its going to have to hold its own against nearly the same level of opponents in a BV balanced game.

1537 BV Garg-Prime  (2/3 = 2797)
1422 BV Adder-B  (2/3 = 2588)

993 BV Manticore
605 BV Bulldog  (LRM 748)
475 BV Vedette


In a BV balanced game the Clan Vet Adder-B is taking on a Manticore, Bulldog-LRM, & 2 Vedettes for similar BV.

The same Clan Vet in Gargoyle-Prime upgrades 1 of the Vedettes to a Bulldog (Standard).


I'm not feeling confident that the Adder survives that w/o a LOT of run & hid & snipe involved.

Then again, I'm not sure the Gargoyle would either but it has the advantage of twice the clusters at 24 hexes meaning it might cripple something earlier & thin out the track pack.

Its also got the armor to take multiple PPC shots  & keep moving, the Adder, not so much.


Meanwhile if you change the role to "Pursue Light Mechs" then I'm going to say the Adder with its LPL & extra MP will fill that role better than the Prime does.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #33 on: 12 September 2018, 10:43:38 »
Adder-B is a solid design, but, would you take it against a pair or Platoon of Medium tanks?

Because under the old BMR rules, the Gargoyle-Prime might pull that off, but, I'm not so sure the Adder-B would.

A few well placed LRM & PPC hits & its going be hurting.

And at only 10% less BV its going to have to hold its own against nearly the same level of opponents in a BV balanced game.

1537 BV Garg-Prime  (2/3 = 2797)
1422 BV Adder-B  (2/3 = 2588)

993 BV Manticore
605 BV Bulldog  (LRM 748)
475 BV Vedette


In a BV balanced game the Clan Vet Adder-B is taking on a Manticore, Bulldog-LRM, & 2 Vedettes for similar BV.

The same Clan Vet in Gargoyle-Prime upgrades 1 of the Vedettes to a Bulldog (Standard).


I'm not feeling confident that the Adder survives that w/o a LOT of run & hid & snipe involved.

Then again, I'm not sure the Gargoyle would either but it has the advantage of twice the clusters at 24 hexes meaning it might cripple something earlier & thin out the track pack.

Its also got the armor to take multiple PPC shots  & keep moving, the Adder, not so much.


Meanwhile if you change the role to "Pursue Light Mechs" then I'm going to say the Adder with its LPL & extra MP will fill that role better than the Prime does.

The only thing the Gargoyle Prime is going to do is fire its LB-X/5s at long range and hope for motive crits. It isn´t going to do enough raw damage to take its enemies out. The Adder B, on the other hand, is also going to land almost as many large pulse laser hits as it would have scored cluster hits with a second LB-X/5 - and those hits HURT. It can also close in beyond medium laser and SRM range and adds its own ER mediums to the equation, for twice the hurt even from beyond medium range for the Manticore´s PPC.

Also, the Adder is faster than the Vedette, unlike the Gargoyle, and has a larger speed advantage over the others. It will have an easier time controlling engagement range (it can back up as quickly as its heavy opponents can advance), and an easier time getting +3 TMM when moving forward and +2 TMM when backing up.

For the match-ups you propose, I say the Adder B will have a better chance against its opponents than the Gargoyle Prime. Although, if the terrain is broken enough that the battle takes place mostly at SRM range, I grant you that the Gargoyle Prime will have an advantage over the Adder B.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #34 on: 12 September 2018, 11:39:33 »
Hits to the armor?  Heck, the Adder will not be able to survive those hits when its armor gets thin.  Unlike the Gargoyle it will not be able to survive in close, and since it does not have SRMs to load infernos into then its going to have more trouble . . . the tactics are totally different- the Adder is going to have to play distance and use that LPL just as much as the LBX.  The Gargoyle?  Its going to be charging forward carrying its Elementals near the armor formation- drop the Elementals and then go for inferno SRM spam.  One other thing not mentioned, the Garg Prime was so cool running you never minded if your opponent set fire to woods and fields trying to get some separation- stand in the fire and its just fine.

Mean while, if my star runs into a medium mech company back up by a lance or three of Vedettes or Scorpions- well that Adder is going to be chasing down a light/medium to give it the LPL & ERML while throwing shotgun blasts at tanks.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #35 on: 12 September 2018, 14:16:04 »
lots of math and hypotheticals to bypass the fact that when building a force, 99.9% of players wouldn't field a gargoyle prime unless they had to. they'd take the A and something else would go after the vehicles.

in all the what mechs do you like threads here and facebook i can't ever remember seeing it mentioned. and i would remember because it would be like someone picking a different surfer band than the beach boys. that kind of disrespect sticks with you
« Last Edit: 12 September 2018, 14:18:39 by Sartris »

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #36 on: 12 September 2018, 15:02:56 »
lots of math and hypotheticals to bypass the fact that when building a force, 99.9% of players wouldn't field a gargoyle prime unless they had to. they'd take the A and something else would go after the vehicles.

in all the what mechs do you like threads here and facebook i can't ever remember seeing it mentioned. and i would remember because it would be like someone picking a different surfer band than the beach boys. that kind of disrespect sticks with you

Hey, no disrespecting Jan and Dean.

The Gargoyle Prime is one of those mechs that makes sense in-universe, but doesn't have much use in the game as played.  I've long been of the opinion that the battlefield in the 31st century doesn't really match what we play on the mapsheet.  It's kind of like the Locust 1M (the one with two LRM-5s and only 1 ton of armor).  In the right situations, it is a devastating weapon.  But nobody actually wants to play that kind of fight.  It's boring and it takes forever.

Last night I played a game of Megamek, taking a Gargoyle Prime against 2 lances of heavy tanks on a 2x2 map.  I faced off against 4 Pattons and 4 Bulldogs, decent if not exceptional heavy Inner Sphere tanks.  By the time I ran out of ammo for the LB-5s (all cluster ammo), one of the tanks was destroyed, 5 were immobilized, and one had been reduced to 2/3 movement.  I didn't have a lot of room to maneuver on the board, and couldn't simply back away (no rolling maps), but other than taking an AC-10 to the head, I was okay.  My armor was still in decent shape on the rest of the mech.

At that point I got bored, then ran in and started kicking the tanks and shooting them with SRMs.  I quickly took a lot of damage, but I was just screwing around at that point.  In an actual battle, you wouldn't do that.  And that's really where the utility of this mech exists -- it's something you'd find very useful in an actual war, but it is boring as crap to play it in a game.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #37 on: 12 September 2018, 15:12:19 »
yup and that's the disconnect between the universe built and the actual game. i'm just not that interested in things i'll never see on the table. when approaching the original question, i considered situations i'd be likely to see in a game (or have seen). if the answer is "you know, it's great in some situations, but ones you'll probably rarely actually encounter playing the game" then i can't endorse it as a good unit.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #38 on: 12 September 2018, 16:09:30 »
yup and that's the disconnect between the universe built and the actual game. i'm just not that interested in things i'll never see on the table. when approaching the original question, i considered situations i'd be likely to see in a game (or have seen). if the answer is "you know, it's great in some situations, but ones you'll probably rarely actually encounter playing the game" then i can't endorse it as a good unit.

Yeah, and I'm far more likely to encounter it in a thought exercise or a discussion forum than to actually play with it in a game.  But since I only get to play Battletech on Megamek anymore (and only against the bot), spotting that it is really useful in certain situations works just fine for me.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #39 on: 12 September 2018, 17:58:48 »
Actually it would get used quite a bit . . . on BV balanced servers.  I LOVED getting the Garg Prime b/c it was so cheap compared to other Clan heavies or meds.  Considering the server had infernos, at one point started fires, and encouraged combined arms the Garg Prime was a great value to run with my Timberwolf Es, a med and Adder D- especially if I had a Nova.  Sure my nova might be facing a IS heavy company (usually Lyrans), but I could keep range up mostly as I hit tanks, drop the BA at a convenient point as I kept that range open and it could run through or sit in any hex on fire (heavy smoke + woods) to get some good shots in before having to move back at a run.

If I am a Wolf Star Captain or Commander during the invasion, I would definitely send the Garg Prime forward to pin any supporting armor in place with BA support and turn my mechs to face whatever axis the mechs are coming from.

Going back to Icar, if I can degrade the armor formations so I do not have to fight them and can instead hammer the mechs where they gather then I can have a maneuver victory.  If I can degrade the armor and the mechs will not move out of the range of the armor's support- then I can bypass them to take the objective.

The Gargoyle Prime may not be sexy with ERPPCs, Gauss Rifles or a Ultra 20 for mech killing damage but it gets the job done.  It does the job and it gets paid.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #40 on: 12 September 2018, 20:47:01 »
Yeah, as i noted in my first post, the bv is the main selling point (or more bluntly imo the one redeeming quality). Ultimately i’d rather take the A or D and pick something else at that bv slot


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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #41 on: 13 September 2018, 02:09:59 »
Last night I played a game of Megamek, taking a Gargoyle Prime against 2 lances of heavy tanks on a 2x2 map.  I faced off against 4 Pattons and 4 Bulldogs, decent if not exceptional heavy Inner Sphere tanks.  By the time I ran out of ammo for the LB-5s (all cluster ammo), one of the tanks was destroyed, 5 were immobilized, and one had been reduced to 2/3 movement.  I didn't have a lot of room to maneuver on the board, and couldn't simply back away (no rolling maps), but other than taking an AC-10 to the head, I was okay.  My armor was still in decent shape on the rest of the mech.

That is a boatload more BV than the Gargoyle is so I'd say you did amazing really.

Under Forced Withdrawal conditions you wouldn't even have taken the damage you took since only the most fanatical of crews will stay in an immobilized vehicle & keep shooting instead of powering down.  That -4 to hit means they DIE very fast when they declare they are still shooting & not bailing.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #42 on: 13 September 2018, 02:12:48 »
Yeah, as i noted in my first post, the bv is the main selling point (or more bluntly imo the one redeeming quality). Ultimately i’d rather take the A or D and pick something else at that bv slot

In a Mech v Mech battle, sure, but as Colt pointed out, if you know ahead of time the enemy is fielding loads of conventionals then the Prime is amazingly effective & cheap as heck for what it can do.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #43 on: 13 September 2018, 11:32:29 »
That is a boatload more BV than the Gargoyle is so I'd say you did amazing really.

Under Forced Withdrawal conditions you wouldn't even have taken the damage you took since only the most fanatical of crews will stay in an immobilized vehicle & keep shooting instead of powering down.  That -4 to hit means they DIE very fast when they declare they are still shooting & not bailing.

I misspoke a bit.  I think two of the tanks were immobilized, and three of them had just been reduced to zero MP.  So they couldn't move, but they weren't getting the -4.  Still, with more maps you'd just move away and leave them there.

I was surprised at how fast those motive hits added up.  I generally play Megamek as "lazy man's Battletech".  I don't think about a move for more than a few seconds, and I normally just shoot at whatever gives me the lowest target number.  But the range on those LB-5s is amazing.  I'd be at medium range (and getting a -1 for cluster) while they were at long.  And I could run and make one turn and still come out ahead in the movement penalty I take vs the penalty I give them.

Overall it was pretty nice.  Not the most fun game to play, but I came away thinking that this mech was definitely something the Clans would want in their forces.  As long as they're facing vehicles regularly.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #44 on: 13 September 2018, 12:40:37 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #45 on: 13 September 2018, 12:44:27 »
Probably not very honorable, but vehicles are annoying, so someone has to deal with them. And clans are not big in wasting resources, so having a capable mech take care of the problem so that the rest of the star can center in the real stuff sounds OK to me. Maybe the pilot is probably one of those old warriors that are not fit for front line duty anymore, but that want to go down fighting. or a dishonored mechwarrior trying to claw its way to the top with a support mech?

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #46 on: 13 September 2018, 13:01:28 »
In a Mech v Mech battle, sure, but as Colt pointed out, if you know ahead of time the enemy is fielding loads of conventionals then the Prime is amazingly effective & cheap as heck for what it can do.

Cheap in BV, yes. But in-universe, battles are not balanced by BV.

If you have limited resources to fill out your touman, what would you acquire to keep enemy vehicles off your ´Mechs? Assault ´Mechs? Or lights that cost about 30% as much apiece to acquire for more than half the capability *plus* far superior anti-Mech capabilities?

Would you rather attach a star of Gargoyle Primes to a cluster, or a trinary of Adder Bs (plus a star of Elementals that you´ll have the resources left to acquire)?
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #47 on: 13 September 2018, 13:29:09 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

The mech was not built to kill vehicles- or ASF which would be seen as more legit among the Clans- the base chassis was a 5/8 mech with more crit space than the Timberwolf.  What we call the Prime was what was supposed to be the most common config seen during the invasion- we have no idea if the A, C or D were perhaps the original config.  Prime could have been a on-the-fly adjustment from Ulric in light of the massed armor, VTOLs, CF and ASF the Wolves faced.

To combine a answer to Sir Chaos & Elmoth . . . during the Invasion the Clans did switch out configurations during the battle, its one of the strengths of Omnis.  No pure stars of Gargoyles existed afaik though some had 3 according to WCSB . . . but if the Wolf star is advancing and expecting to face more armor than mechs at that point, I would want some of my Gargoyles as Primes (which also keeps the Aero off, considering they were often bid away its a important reminder) to make the IS armor combat ineffective.  When my scout (be it aero, mech or DS orbiting) finds the enemy mech concentration I can pull back to let the techs swap out the Gargoyles to more anti-mech loadouts.

Also, direct to Sir Chaos . . . if I found anywhere from a couple companies of armor up to a battalion, mixed weights, and send a star or nova against them . . . I am more likely to get all or most of the Gargoyles back if I sent five Primes.  Not the case with a nova of Adder Bs and the Elementals- the Bs cannot take as much punishment and the Elementals will have to get in close.  Both will wreck that armor contingent but it would be wasteful to throw the more fragile Adders against such a force.

Finally . . . its not Gargoyle Primes- its simply Gargoyles.  Just like Adders they are Omni-mechs and at need can be swapped out for the more liked A, C or D mech killing configurations.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #48 on: 13 September 2018, 13:39:54 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

I don't think they did.  I don't think the Man O' War was designed for that purpose.  It has 16 DHS inside the engine, after all.  If I had to come up with an in character rationale for it, it would be something like this.

--The Man O' War was designed to fulfill the same kind of role as the MadCat.  Given the complexities of "real" mech design, apparently the people in-universe haven't figured out the common break points that every player knows (i.e., 80 ton mechs are inefficient, but nobody knows that).  It was a very solid design with good speed, good pod space, great heat dissipation, and decent armor.  It forms the core of the Wolf Clan's "fast cavalry" units.

--Then the MadCat is created, and it's just better.  The Man O' War starts becoming a less preferred design, but the Wolves still have a lot of them and so you gotta use 'em.

--The Clans invade the Inner Sphere and find that their main combat forces keep running into tanks and other conventional forces.  Most of the Clans gave these up long ago, but the FedCom especially seems to love them.  So now the Clans need something to get rid of these pesky annoyances that their heavy cavalry forces keep running into.

--Some commander orders his Man O' Wars to carry an anti-vehicle configuration when they're facing FedCom RCTs.  It is very effective and it quickly catches on.  It ends up becoming such a common move that the FedCom identifies this as the "primary" configuration for the mech.  It's the one they see the most.  Once most of the vehicles have been dealt with, mechwarriors switch to the "A" configuration, or one of the others.

That's going to be my head-canon for it, anyway.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #49 on: 13 September 2018, 16:51:18 »
To go into how OP the Prime is against vehicles, I put a 2/3 pilot in one against an entire company of Vedettes (and I still had around half of their BV). By the time the battle ended, only one tank survived (because its crew apparently had an attack of self-preservation).

But the thing is, the Gargoyle Prime isn't to be thought of in terms of "most efficient anti-vehicle design". No, remember that Gargoyles are attached to Heavy or Assault Stars, and the Prime would show up when those Stars are expecting to face off against a lot of vehicles.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #50 on: 13 September 2018, 17:10:28 »
Cheap in BV, yes. But in-universe, battles are not balanced by BV.

If you have limited resources to fill out your touman, what would you acquire to keep enemy vehicles off your ´Mechs? Assault ´Mechs? Or lights that cost about 30% as much apiece to acquire for more than half the capability *plus* far superior anti-Mech capabilities?

Would you rather attach a star of Gargoyle Primes to a cluster, or a trinary of Adder Bs (plus a star of Elementals that you´ll have the resources left to acquire)?

Under that rational I'd rather take a Gargoyle clone w/ 320 Rated SFE & field a Trinary of those for the costs of the Adders

As Colt said, its not Gargoyle-Primes, its Gargoyle-Omnimechs, and I can turn them into any configuration I want & the Prime has its uses.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #51 on: 14 September 2018, 10:56:35 »
Under that rational I'd rather take a Gargoyle clone w/ 320 Rated SFE & field a Trinary of those for the costs of the Adders

As Colt said, its not Gargoyle-Primes, its Gargoyle-Omnimechs, and I can turn them into any configuration I want & the Prime has its uses.

Then I will acquire Gargoyles and Adders for my clusters, and field the Gargoyle A and C to deal with ´Mechs and the Adder B to deal with vehicles. If you have both, and need to decide which to use in which role, that makes more sense than Gargoyle Prime against vehicles and Adder Prime and A against ´Mechs.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #52 on: 14 September 2018, 13:42:56 »
Prime & A?  I use the Adder B & D to hunt down lights and meds.  Its more useful for the Adder B to go after Phoenix Hawks, Spiders, Javelins, Jenners, Assassins and other fast jumpers that would be found in scout forces or trying to flank the main Clan force- punch through their light armor and then ranged crit seeker with the speed to keep up or keep them away.  With the Adder D I have no problem getting into a sniping duel with some IS heavies and most Meds I would have faced in the Invasion- Centurion 9-A, Enforcers, Wolverines, Shadow Hawks, and most 4/6 heavies b/c of the speed w/ERLL.  Typically Adders and Gargoyles in WCSB were not in the same stars IIRC.

Your still overlooking that the Adder is not going to survive against vehicles the same way a Gargoyle will simply due to the difference in armor & structure- plus closing in to light them up with infernos if it gets to that point.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #53 on: 14 September 2018, 14:26:02 »
Yeah, but anyone who gets stuck with anti-vehicle duty in a Clan Star probably isn't a highly regarded warrior in the first place.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #54 on: 14 September 2018, 14:55:22 »
Depends on mentality . . . and I imagine they get promised stuff like "Alright, next time you can get a mech hunting config and get first challenge."
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #55 on: 14 September 2018, 21:12:01 »
It is unfortunately that the Clans have been so shoehorned into this specific mentality.  Militarily, it makes sense to have a configuration for a 'mech that can change its loadout on the fly to deal with regiments of conventional forces. A couple years ago I started a topic about how Zellbrigen dramatically cahnges warfare and essentially destroys tactical combat.

This situation with the Gargoyle Prime makes me think about those kinds of situations that are best handled in an ongoing RPG campaign. Only there would you participate in lopsided situations as part of a story rather than a balanced PvP game.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #56 on: 14 September 2018, 21:35:30 »
The only other reason I can think of for the Gargoyle Prime is to duel or act as a handicap for the commander deploying it.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #57 on: 16 September 2018, 15:14:30 »
The only other reason I can think of for the Gargoyle Prime is to duel or act as a handicap for the commander deploying it.

"I bid a Star of Timber Wolves and Warhawks to take this objective!"

"Since I'm not as cowardly as the other commander, I bid two Man of War and three Nova to take that plant!"

And as a calculated insult. I'm pretty sure Ulric killed a Khan while piloting a Gargoyle Prime.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #58 on: 17 September 2018, 15:14:02 »
And as a calculated insult. I'm pretty sure Ulric killed a Khan while piloting a Gargoyle Prime.

Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #59 on: 17 September 2018, 16:38:58 »
Talks about it in the book, but I am pretty sure it was the A against Christu though the D is attributed to him for the Invasion IIRC.

Now the Wolves Refusal of the Invasion had them pitted against the Bears and both Khans died leading their clusters (4) against the single Wolf cluster- with a very narrow win.  He might have been in the fight or it could have just been the Star Colonel leading her cluster.

But I do not think he ever was known to pilot a Gargoyle Prime.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #60 on: 17 September 2018, 19:53:37 »
Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.

My memory might be stretching the details. I do seem remember it as almost an offhand comment that Ulric used a Prime in a trial and handily defeated his opponent. The trial itself wasn't part of the narrative, it was two other characters discussing it just after Ulric's victory. Hmm. Probably in the BoK trilogy.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #61 on: 18 September 2018, 03:43:35 »
Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.

Talks about it in the book, but I am pretty sure it was the A against Christu though the D is attributed to him for the Invasion IIRC.

Now the Wolves Refusal of the Invasion had them pitted against the Bears and both Khans died leading their clusters (4) against the single Wolf cluster- with a very narrow win.  He might have been in the fight or it could have just been the Star Colonel leading her cluster.

But I do not think he ever was known to pilot a Gargoyle Prime.


While the Novels might have alternate info,  the Wolf Phone Book & The Wotan Scenario of Falcon/Wolves both show Ulric piloting a Prime.

He was "THAT" could.

Like Gray Noton using a Rifleman-3N,  he was just THAT good.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #62 on: 18 September 2018, 13:19:56 »
In the Gargoyle MOTW, someone suggests the Prime is far better with Solaris rules, where weapons have different reload times as Solaris rounds are 2.5 seconds long or something like that as opposed to 10 second rounds of standard BT. Obviously, the rules are no longer support, nor likely canon. But if we assume that standard rules are abstractions and that weapons might have different rates of fire realistically, the Prime may be better than it seems on paper, even against 'Mechs.

Doesn't make the Prime any better on standard BT though...

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #63 on: 18 September 2018, 23:01:51 »
The autocannons are relatively fast-firing weapons in Solaris rules. They use a delay system where weapons need so many turns to reload or cool down before firing again. The larger laser weapons need two or three turns before they can be fired, but the AC/2 can fire every round and the AC/5 and AC/10 only need one round to reload (essentially allowing them to fire every other round). SRMs only need one round to reload, but LRMs need two rounds.

But then again, even if that provides an advantage, that doesn't mean much for Total Warfare. But on the other hand, using something like the Solaris rules would be interesting considering Clan zellbrigen.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #64 on: 19 September 2018, 17:37:55 »
The autocannons are relatively fast-firing weapons in Solaris rules. They use a delay system where weapons need so many turns to reload or cool down before firing again. The larger laser weapons need two or three turns before they can be fired, but the AC/2 can fire every round and the AC/5 and AC/10 only need one round to reload (essentially allowing them to fire every other round). SRMs only need one round to reload, but LRMs need two rounds.

But then again, even if that provides an advantage, that doesn't mean much for Total Warfare. But on the other hand, using something like the Solaris rules would be interesting considering Clan zellbrigen.

That's also a good reason for it to be over-sinked.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #65 on: 20 September 2018, 08:44:57 »
That's also a good reason for it to be over-sinked.

Indeed...

If using the Solaris rules where a standard CBT turn is broken up into 4 "sub" turns, assuming it fires everything as often as possible a Gargoyle Prime will put out 4 heat for the LBX5's(1 heat x2 cannons x2 sub rounds of firing) and a whopping 32 heat for the SRM6's(4 heat x 2 launchers x4 sub turns of firing)! The missile launchers alone will use up the fixed heat sinks, and the heat from the autocannons will put it at exactly +4 heat... exactly at the point where it gets no penalities for built up heat. Well, as long as it stands still, because that's without movement heat.

However as far as I remember, and according to the MotW Article on the Gargoyle, the 2 and 5 class AC's could BOTH fire every sub turn, meaning the twin LBX AC/5's of the Gargoyle could produce up to 8 heat.

In any case, so many damage clusters flying your way in a single CBT round would perfectly explain why the Prime is a good duelling loadout. You are in a 5/8 Assault Mech with good armor protection, so you will survive closing the range, if you choose to... which you don't even need, thanks to the LBX AC/5 range magic. Aim high and you are going to turn the enemy pilot into a vegetable slushy, simply from the number of head hits that will accumulate over time. And of course, so many hits also massively increase the chance for a TAC...
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 08:46:44 by SD501st »

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #66 on: 21 September 2018, 07:44:39 »
two other scenarios

Buy a force in BPV. change to chaos campaign rules. Play a couple games using it as a fat battle-taxi, then switch to a real config. It's gaming the system, but if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Second, after your star-mate the ristar get shot out of his mech, challenge his opponent. He's likely to have armor full of holes, and look, you've go all these crit-seekers...


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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #67 on: 21 September 2018, 19:26:37 »
Indeed...

If using the Solaris rules where a standard CBT turn is broken up into 4 "sub" turns, assuming it fires everything as often as possible a Gargoyle Prime will put out 4 heat for the LBX5's(1 heat x2 cannons x2 sub rounds of firing) and a whopping 32 heat for the SRM6's(4 heat x 2 launchers x4 sub turns of firing)! The missile launchers alone will use up the fixed heat sinks, and the heat from the autocannons will put it at exactly +4 heat... exactly at the point where it gets no penalities for built up heat. Well, as long as it stands still, because that's without movement heat.

While you are correct I will just add to this: heat in the Solaris Dueling system works somewhat differently when you get to heat scale.  I attached a copy of the sheet here for viewing.  I can't find my copy of Reaches at this time to recall what the delay time is on a Clan SRM-6, but assuming you fire observing the weapon delays and not over riding them then you will stay cool enough to not incur any adverse effects.  At least until the point you start taking engine hits.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #68 on: 23 September 2018, 09:04:42 »
While you are correct I will just add to this: heat in the Solaris Dueling system works somewhat differently when you get to heat scale.  I attached a copy of the sheet here for viewing.  I can't find my copy of Reaches at this time to recall what the delay time is on a Clan SRM-6, but assuming you fire observing the weapon delays and not over riding them then you will stay cool enough to not incur any adverse effects.  At least until the point you start taking engine hits.

What I get from a quick gleam at this(thanks for providing it btw!) is that all heat is basically multiplied by 4, with the exception of movement which keeps the same heat for walking and running but works a little different otherwise in regards to jumping. But that evens out because you can move 4 times per regular BT turn. Oh and a third ground movement mode, huh... can one fire weapons while sprinting? If not, this reminds me a bit of how the Battletech PC game handles movement. Interesting. ???

How does TSM figure into this? Is it activated at 9x4=34 heat and thus gets the normal -1 movement(canceled out by TSM) and +1 to hit? Or is the activation threshold different? If it's option 1, then it's interesting that it activates in between the heat values for the +1 to hit and -2 movement modifiers. Gives it a little more granularity and actually makes it easier to manage.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2018, 09:11:24 by SD501st »

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #69 on: 23 September 2018, 18:14:22 »
I'd have to dig the book back up to take a look at it.  I don't honestly remember how TSM was managed.  There were very few, if any, TSM equipped mechs at the time of its publish.  Fairly certain sprinting did not allow for fire and was close to, if not identical, to what is in Tac Ops today.  Map scale is also different as well as the original maps were between 7.5 to 10 meters.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #70 on: 23 September 2018, 18:26:25 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #71 on: 23 September 2018, 18:56:52 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.
I wouldn't call the Solaris rules obscure.  Dated is a more appropriate description.  In that element/rule set though the Prime is a decent mech.  While I'm certain that wasn't what the OP had in mind, its still valid for discussion if anyone want to have it.  In any event, I just wanted to give a clarifying nugget, I've done that, I'll just go back to lurking.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #72 on: 23 September 2018, 22:26:28 »
I wouldn't call the Solaris rules obscure.

The rules showed up in one product that was printed over 25 years ago.  Most Battletech players have never seen the rules.  That makes them pretty obscure.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #73 on: 23 September 2018, 23:14:06 »
The rules showed up in one product that was printed over 25 years ago.  Most Battletech players have never seen the rules.  That makes them pretty obscure.
I'm trying not to go off on a complete tangent, however there is quite a bit of the BTU that could be defined as obscure by that narrative. If we were to take it to its extreme the whole of the BTU at this point could be considered obscure to significant amount of gaming market.

Solaris reference outside of periodic fluff here and there was last mentioned in the 2014 XTRO RF.  Sure its a joke product, but it states right on the inside cover where you can find the rule set.  Failing that, anyone that had particular interest, can in fact, go back and look at Sarna for more information of the historical product.  The quality and quantity of what is there may not be to one's liking, but it points you in the correct direction to find out items and it took me 2-3 minutes, so I'd say that's hardly obscure for a BT player.

The point here is my opinion and yours are entirely subjective.  The statement that 'most Battletech players have never seen the rules' has no way to be verified by you or I (or largely anyone else) with accuracy.  I agree to disagree with your opinion and lets leave it at that for folks that might want to discuss items further.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #74 on: 24 September 2018, 11:24:00 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.

The Man O' War Prime is not good in standard Battletech, mech vs mech combat, which is what most people play.  Nobody disputes that.  That basic consensus is the entire reason for this thread, after all.  What we are discussing in this thread are the situations where the mech might be much better than people otherwise believe.

What we have found is:
--The mech is an outstanding vehicle killer, particularly in the BMR set, but even in Total Warfare.
--The mech is great under the Solaris "dueling" rules.

I try to look at Battlemechs with the question "why would anybody use this thing?"  I want them to make sense in-universe.  And they don't have to be good in standard tabletop Battletech to do that.  The Locust with two LRM-5s is crappy in a normal gaming scenario, but it would be brilliant in the right circumstances.  I don't think anyone wants to play out the "rolling mapsheets, enemy stays out of range and whittles you down until either you die or he runs out of ammo and leaves" game.

The 3025 Raven with all the primitive ECM equipment might be a great asset in Battleforce or some other campaign system, but it sucks in the normal game.  Same thing with the HQ variant of the Cyclops.  But these mechs were considered very valuable for a reason.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #75 on: 24 September 2018, 11:44:29 »
The Man O' War Prime is not good in standard Battletech, mech vs mech combat, which is what most people play.  Nobody disputes that.  That basic consensus is the entire reason for this thread, after all.  What we are discussing in this thread are the situations where the mech might be much better than people otherwise believe.

What we have found is:
--The mech is an outstanding vehicle killer, particularly in the BMR set, but even in Total Warfare.
--The mech is great under the Solaris "dueling" rules.

I try to look at Battlemechs with the question "why would anybody use this thing?"  I want them to make sense in-universe.  And they don't have to be good in standard tabletop Battletech to do that.  The Locust with two LRM-5s is crappy in a normal gaming scenario, but it would be brilliant in the right circumstances.  I don't think anyone wants to play out the "rolling mapsheets, enemy stays out of range and whittles you down until either you die or he runs out of ammo and leaves" game.

The 3025 Raven with all the primitive ECM equipment might be a great asset in Battleforce or some other campaign system, but it sucks in the normal game.  Same thing with the HQ variant of the Cyclops.  But these mechs were considered very valuable for a reason.

So I guess the question is: Are the circumstances and tasks that the Gargoyle Prime is good at prevalent enough in-universe to justify the Gargoyle Prime being a widespread configuration in-universe?

Given that those circumstances are (1) one-on-one duels and (2) dealing with conventional vehicles and VTOL, I would say... yes.

Presumably the Gargoyle Prime was, pre-Revival, a common configuration for one-on-one trials, perhaps even "serial one-on-one" trials like the Trial of Position in which cadets graduate. It was probably less common during the initial battles of Revival, but when it became clear just how many vehicles the Clans were going to face on the path to Terra, it was dusted off and put to use against those vehicles.

I still say using the Adder B is a more economical way to deal with conventional vehicles, but the Gargoyle Prime is good at the job - just not as good, per resource expended to build them, as the Adder B.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #76 on: 24 September 2018, 12:47:43 »
I'm thinking the Prime is a dedicated Battle Armor carrier. All armament in the arms, no hands so arms aren't particularly active and unlikely to brush off BA accidentally (implicitly an occasional issue in the fluff, per Fire Moth fluff), long-range weapons to provide covering fire for BA.
Since BA and vehicles don't as a general rule follow zell like 'Mechs do (nor do 'Mechs follow it against non-'Mech targets), the Gargoyle Prime can carry BA and then cover them while they destroy enemy vehicles and BA. Plus, if we take various TacOps rules and assume they represent greater realism, LB-X ACs are sorta good vs Battle Armor because all hits have chance of instantly incapacitating a trooper.
Naturally this still leaves the Prime weak in standard BT games, but i do think it has a role in-universe, and reasonably common at that.


The Gargoyle's brother, the Timber Wolf (both descend from the Woodsman) isn't as suited for BA carrying due to it nearly always mounting heavy weapons in torsos, plus in general its shape may be less suitable for BA carrying even though this isn't modeled in the rules.

Further, assuming the most difficult tech for the Clan to produce is Endo-steel, the Gargoyle may be more practical for the Clan Wolf to produce than the Timber Wolf, despite its greater mass and higher rated engine. Indeed, didn't the Gargoyle become relatively widespread whereas the Wolves defend the Timber Wolf is exclusively manufactured by the Wolves? (The Gargoyle is a decoy and a consolidation prize.)

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #77 on: 24 September 2018, 13:27:56 »
I believe you've got the relative distribution of those two mechs backwards.  The Mad Cat is common throughout the Clans, while the Man O' War remained rare outside the Wolves.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #78 on: 24 September 2018, 13:54:12 »
Except that wouldn't make sense as the Wolves are in sole control of the Mad Cat production and among other Clans they're isorla, salvage, or trade, whereas the Gargoyle has no such limitation noted anywhere. And the Gargoyle is produced on Tokasha Mechworks per Sarna as well, so at least the Ghost Bears are producing it.

TRO3050U notes that the Gargoyle is found among Invaders mostly, though Ice Hellions also use it. The same TRO indicates the Mad Cat is found in modest numbers among other Clans at best. As such i'd really assume the Gargoyle is more common of the two.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #79 on: 24 September 2018, 15:07:21 »
The fact is that other Clans actually want Mad Cats, the mech is prestigious.  The Man O' War?  Not so much.

And while the Wolves might control the production facility, other Clans can easily trial for production runs, just like what the Wolves did against the Jaguars with the Daishi.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #80 on: 10 October 2018, 14:00:21 »
If you play with BV (or even if you don't)...

You're in a duel situation. Your opponent goes for a tried and true Timber Wolf Prime. You decided on a Gargoyle Prime. A standard Clan pilot boosts the Timber Wolf Prime up to 3777 BV. To even things out, you can bring the Gargoyle Prime up to 3674 BV with a 1/1 pilot.

If you play with aiming rules, you can see where I'm going with this. Try it out - the Gargoyle Prime has enough speed and armor to close with some smart play, at which point the Timber Wolf will be in some serious danger. Add quirks to the equation, and the Stabilized Weapons of the Gargoyle make it even deadlier.

So if your a seasoned Clan elite, and you want to murder and/or capture your opponent by knocking them out - the Gargoyle Prime can be an interesting, if unorthodox choice.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #81 on: 10 October 2018, 14:05:12 »
You do realize the contradiction in claiming that a mech is good because it's inferior to another mech, right?  Seriously, a 1/1 pilot with aiming rules should kick ass in almost any mech.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #82 on: 10 October 2018, 14:13:47 »
You do realize the contradiction in claiming that a mech is good because it's inferior to another mech, right?  Seriously, a 1/1 pilot with aiming rules should kick ass in almost any mech.

I'm claiming that due to the way BV works, you can get a good enough pilot in it in order to use the aiming rules reliably - something you can't really do with most units. It's useful if you want a 'Mech you can reliably use kill your opponent.

If BV isn't a concern, then sure, go for something more expensive that'll probably bring you more mileage. But even then, the Gargoyle Prime is certainly useful - as long as you have that good pilot in it.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #83 on: 10 October 2018, 14:37:45 »
I am trying part of my bid for Liam's Ghost last bid request . . . star of Gargoyle D, 2 Garg Prime, Karhu and HAG Mad Dog with mixed BA points (Rogue Bear types & 1 Salamander) against a veteran Vedette company, 2 regular Scorpion companies, and a green Scorpion company (what it took to be BV balanced).  The Clan forces have been hurting the armor but not quite finishing it off . . . there is a 2/3 Vedette, turret locked Scorpion, immobile Scorpion and various levels of damage with only a handful destroyed.  The bot is gathering them together (Ved & green to N, reg Scorp to NW & NE) for a zerg rush and I am almost to the point the Gargs are going to have to start back pedaling to keep the majority of the armor at mid range.  The Karhu has been using the jump and Plasma Cannon to burn any tank that tries to flank.

I think it might be interesting to see a 3080s Prime 2.0 . . . still a LB-5X in one arm, pair of Plasma Cannons on the other arm (uses integral DHS), and maybe a pair of ATM3 for the range instead of the SRMs.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #84 on: 10 October 2018, 14:53:41 »
Also, are people loading up one of the tons of SRM ammo as Infernos? It seems like it'd be undeniably useful against the sort of combined arms units that people are advocating using the Gargoyles against.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #85 on: 10 October 2018, 15:26:05 »
I forgot as I was setting it up, so concerned with checking stuff off for the tanks lol.

I think it would be standard doctrine for the Garg Prime to have the 2nd ton be Inferno . . . fire is not something it fears.  It should court fighting in the midst of a forest fire.

Revise my earlier one . . . iATM3s!  Inferno missiles!
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #86 on: 10 October 2018, 16:07:14 »
That's just evil.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #87 on: 10 October 2018, 16:38:29 »
Definitely want to test it in HMP, IMO it would be the spiritual successor to the Prime.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #88 on: 11 October 2018, 05:59:50 »
Most Clan Prime configurations are sub optimal . 3050 Clan designs frequenly had 1 ton LB X ammo and later years had 1 ton of ATM ammo . Dark Age Inner Sphere Designs with 1 or 2 Clan Spec weapons was strike a balance between weight and efficacy . The Super Heavy mechs with all Clan Spec weapons just was included for shock and awe not efficacy . I like taking successful designs from previous ERAs and replacing a Clan Ballistic weapon such as a Gauss Rifle and IS ER Large Laser for a light PPC and with the weight savings switch IS XL engine for light engines CASE for CASE II , Gaurdian for Angel , Beagle for Bloodhound ect.  What you get is about the same performance for about 2-3 million C bills less .

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #89 on: 12 October 2018, 01:43:44 »
IIRC, Infernos are supposed to be rare & only the most debased of units would use them.

But players being players, I don't know of anyone that would make the 2nd ton inferno ammo.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #90 on: 12 October 2018, 05:41:33 »
IIRC, Infernos are supposed to be rare & only the most debased of units would use them.

Snip.

Not sure where you got that. This is a universe where flamers are a thing and a mech was built around them. Don't know why infernos would be an issue, other than the mech carrying them bursting into flames.

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Empyrus

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #91 on: 12 October 2018, 09:05:26 »
Pretty sure some sources do indeed describe infernos as rare in usage at least.

Looking at Sarna's article on infernos, which seems to be based on TM and TO, infantry supposedly use infernos often due to their effectiveness against 'Mechs, while 'Mechs rarely mount infernos because they're hazardous to MechWarriors (presumably due to their lower heat-induced ammo explosion point).

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #92 on: 13 October 2018, 12:21:20 »
Under the old BMR Rules, the Gargoyle Prime was hell on combat vehicles. all those pellets, all those missile hits, they were great for shaking apart a vehicle by crits, without even needing to breach the vee.  TW era rules are less kind to it, but with the right optional rules, it has a niche again. the Called Shot rules work great with it, not aimed shot, called shot. This slightly increases the difficulty to hit, but lets you roll on the punch table (or leg table or a side table) giving you a 1 in 6 chance of doming them. a few turns sustained buckshot and missiles, and you can rack up enough cockpit hits, to put the other mechwarrior to bed without even breaching the head armor.

The Gargoyle's Quirks as provided by the BMM help too. Stabilized arms let you run around without spoiling your murder shot.

Works even better with some of the SPAs available. I suspect Ulric, with the bonuses that "Blood Stalker" gives you, may have ended the ghost bear khans in this fashion.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #93 on: 16 October 2018, 05:53:35 »
I forgot about the old partial cover rules too, the +3 to hit is tough to get around (-2 after the pellet bonus) but the pellets each getting 1in 6 to hit the head would scramble a lot of pilots. With a 0 or 1 gunnery that might be a rare time where you move in such a way to put your opponent into partial cover lol.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #94 on: 21 October 2018, 02:14:07 »
Not sure where you got that. This is a universe where flamers are a thing and a mech was built around them. Don't know why infernos would be an issue, other than the mech carrying them bursting into flames.

Old 3025 novels fluff IIRC.

Maybe a mention in MW1 or BMR about inferno rules.

But pretty sure they were semi frowned upon & only broken out in the most dire of circumstances or by barbarians, etc etc.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #95 on: 21 October 2018, 02:18:21 »
Its actually in 3050 novels too . . . one of the POV characters on Nashur who commands a light hovertank lance is horrified to learn one of his subordinates loaded infernoes.  He had been blaming Sunny's forces for bringing them to the fight and burning down the village.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #96 on: 21 October 2018, 05:17:05 »
So it seems that it is a problem with collateral damage, not with smashing the enemy.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #97 on: 21 October 2018, 09:58:51 »
So it seems that it is a problem with collateral damage, not with smashing the enemy.

Sorry, do not mean to derail the thread so this will be my last fire related post.

Fire is fire. Does not matter if it is started with a flamer or inferno. I was under the impression that the reason they were disliked was because, in universe they were more volatile than standard SRMs. In game this was reflected in the additional heat related avoid ammo explosion rolls inferno ammo needed.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #98 on: 21 October 2018, 11:53:11 »
IIRC there were initially two reasons for not using infernos:

-They were dedicated anti-mech weapons (no effect on anything else).
-They were very expensive.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #99 on: 21 October 2018, 12:12:49 »
They have always been murder on tanks.  There wasn't much point in using them on infantry because everything murdered infantry under the old rules.

The general prohibition against using infernos on tanks was always A) they're volatile and much more prone to exploding than standard SRMs ad B) they indiscriminately start fires everywhere- if you're not trying to destroy the area, it's counterproductive.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #100 on: 21 October 2018, 13:36:04 »
I started reading some of the really old Battletech novels a little while ago, ones I’d never bothered to read before.  Decision at Thunder Rift mentions that infernos are a commonly used infantry weapon, if you’ve got somebody crazy enough to get close enough to use them (apparently they are supposed to have a shorter range than regular SRMs in that novel), but mechs don’t normally carry them because they are so volatile.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #101 on: 30 October 2018, 11:11:21 »
I always play with floating criticals.

When facing 3025 IS 'Mechs with torso bomb ammunition bins, the Gargoyle Prime can be quite scary to deal with. Combine that with a higher-than-average frequency of head hits and some infernos to turn the screws on opponents who already have marginal heat management, and it can hold its own as a niche unit. I've seen more than one overconfident Marauder go kerblooey when struck by a lucky LB5X salvo.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #102 on: 13 February 2019, 23:41:05 »
Just wanted to say that I got to experience this first hand. In a recent game, my Mauler's pilot got knocked unconscious after four head hits from a Uller Prime. Armor was depleted, but no internal damage. In fact, the only location that took a real beating was the right leg; the rest of the locations were at over 50% armor.

So it is not just hypothesis.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #103 on: 09 March 2019, 15:36:26 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.

Actually those rules came out not long after TRO 3050 did and they received a supplement in The Reaches. They also had 'Mechs in the boxed set designed specifically to use them (Juggernaut, Paladin, Onslaught, etc.), along with similar 'Mechs in The Reaches (Sasquatch, Werewolf, etc.) and they were assumed to be used in Unbound too. There was a fair bit of support for them for a while.

In one of the MoTW threads on the 3055 'Mechs, someone referenced a designer saying that the Vixen, Goshawk, and Viper were specifically designed to operate under those rules, hence the MG spam, etc. That's a lot of 'Mechs designed under that ruleset, so it's not farfetched to think that the dueling rules may have been somewhere in development when the Gargoyle Prime was invented.

Plus, they were altered and incorporated into the MechWarrior's Guide to Solaris, so they continued for a bit after it was invented too.

The Man O'War/Gargoyle Prime is indeed a beast under those rulesets, compounded by the ability in those rules for it to aim for the punch table and just let cluster shots do the work.

Then we get to the old Battletech Compendium rules where a Garg Prime could conceivably take on an entire armored company by itself (even without infernos since you couldn't use them in 6 packs back then), and could take Inferno hits for days while doing it. Infantry, including Elementals would be in a bad way too because there were no rules for reducing damage of big weapons to standard infantry and LBX Cluster shot negated Battle Armor dispersion rules.

As a note, Elementals and standard Infantry frequently used Flamers and Infernos at the time (one Elemental even used Infernos in a Bloodname duel in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy), so that could have been a reason that the oversinking was tolerated too.There were no limits on heat addition back then, and though Infernos added only turns to duration per missile, not extra heat, Flamers could do what they liked.

Not to mention that many cluster weapons combined with oversinking would have been good in a duel against an Aerospace Pilot known to use Inferno Bombs....which were pretty OP under Battletech Compendium.

Was the effect of the Prime's full loadout intentional? Dunno. There's some evidence to suggest it could have been, of course TRO 3050 was a trainwreck of bad rules, so who knows. Yes, it's bad in some situations, but there is some interesting history surrounding it.

Can the Gargoyle Prime at least be explained in some in-universe or game design context? Sure.

One bonus explanation: Maybe the Wolves expected the IS to pull no punches and break out the nukes. Nukes do happen to add lots of heat to 'Mechs at the edge of the blast. The Hoplite, which was designed during an era of nuclear warfare, is suspiciously oversinked as well.


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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #104 on: 09 March 2019, 16:02:03 »
It doesn't really matter how quickly after the release of the Man O War the Solaris rules came out.  They're still something that was only ever optional rules and I feel pretty comfortable saying that I don't believe that there was ever a point when they would have been used for a majority of games being played.  If the argument rests on invoking special rules, it's conceding the point that under normal rules the mech just wasn't that good.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #105 on: 09 March 2019, 16:41:57 »
I'd take it in a campaign. It's cheap, and the basic frame isn't bad. I'd play it a couple games (To avoid charges of cheese) and then change it to a real configuration.


For a clan assault the garg prime is crap.

For 1500 BPV it's not great, but I can think of things I'd consider worse.  Battle Cobra F (Medium lasers good, UAC5 garbage) or Nova C (Needs more gauss ammo, equally inefficient use of heat capacity) are only a little cheaper, and neither carry as much armour.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #106 on: 09 March 2019, 21:43:24 »
Using the BV point.

Here is a list of options from the MUL within 50 above to 100 below of the Gargoyle-Prime.

I don't see a lot there that can take it out easily, and I don't see a lot there that adds as much pain v/s a combined arms force like a FC RCT.

Don't get me wrong, there are mechs I'd rather field in there for certain situations but I mean, come on, some of those are Clan Lights or IS Mediums & they are not going to do well against an 80 ton near max armored beast that can hit you with 12 SRMs & then Kick you afterwards.

Bigger mechs like the Goliath & Cyclops are slower, shorter on ammo/armor, or have juicy XLs or un-cased ammo just asking for a crit seeker like the Gargoyle to exploit.

I think GC has an idea for a campaign use, but for me the real use for is as a team player.   If some other mech opens up a couple holes, say with Clan ERPPCs, then this thing really starts to shine.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #107 on: 10 March 2019, 03:45:22 »
RE inferno's, I thought the Clan's didn't use them in the opening stages of REVIVAL because Verrrrrrrry dishonourable!
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #108 on: 11 March 2019, 03:35:52 »
The Prime is taking mechs like the Dragon, Charger, and Lancelot a step further. They are not designed to match the typical speed and firepower of their weight class. The design goes in the opposite direction by focusing upon speed. That much armor and structure going 5/8 is pretty significant.

Within the I.S. the design should not have any real issues, at least when it comes to the guiding principals of the organization fielding it. In clan society, and I am no clan society specialist so feel free to jump in if you are and I am off, but the mech should not be designed to operate as a team member. If it did then it would be similar to the Naga, or the prime config would at least be designated as something else. It appears that the prime would be designed for those looking to pick apart a slower target at range. The design has no means of overheating, which reduces the mental processing requirements of the design. The clusters could be used to connect when they might have a difficult shot.

I think the design would make more sense in an MWO game then on the tabletop for most people. Specifically in the arena matches where individual speed could make a far greater difference then in a match with a group. If you are difficult to track and hit then a much slower assault mech is going to have a problem. Your problem is connecting with your shots due to the ammunition limitation.

Regarding the OP's question about trying to disable a target through early crits, I would have to say that it is very possible. In a society in which dueling is a means of promotion, of answering debates, and warfare, knowing the opposing design's weaknesses is key. Knowing what area of a particular mech to shoot at for maximum effect is one thing, knowing that an area has several weakpoints where tossing a lot of pellets at it could allow you to hit them is a big difference. This wouldn't translate well into the tabletop, nor MWO. However, in a realistic environment where walking tanks have joints and other weak points it does seem that the Prime would be a Surgeon's scalpel instead of a wrecking ball trying to win via blunt force.

 Going back to the game, I have used Ac2s and LBX cannons to cause serious early game damage to a target. I haven't met a Stalker that I have not destroyed the gyro, double tapped the engine, or smashed the hip with small munitions in the first turn of fire. By the second or third turn I have critted at least one unit if a Stalker is not present. If one is then the Stalker is either flopping around or hiding waiting for others to engage before trying to move up again, while another unit is hit with a crit. I don't get great dice rolls, nor do I rely upon crits to carry me to victory. You have about the same odds at winning at roulette with a single number as you are rolling a through armor critical. It happens, the chances aren't great at 2.8%, the follow up roll to determine if you actual crit something is  pretty decent, about the same as picking "red" or "black" in roulette. If you land at least 1 crit early on you are disabling some of the potential of the unit. Popping a small laser isn't much, but if you can reduce their mobility, destroy a main weapon, or detonate some ammo you won pretty big. That could cement your ability to dictate the fight.

However, one does have to ask why it is the Prime variant if the design is so over sinked for it.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #109 on: 11 March 2019, 12:29:55 »
If I had to come up with an in universe reason for it, I'd suggest that the variant ends up being used a lot because of how common the FedCom RCTs were.  Basically the Clans started running into vehicles a lot more than they were used to.  So what would have been a dueling configuration gets pressed into service as an anti-air and anti-vehicle platform.  Basically it's a Warrior H-7 killer.

As for why it's oversinked, that's because they filled up the engine with them.  It was probably originally intended for the A variant to be the most common, but you never know exactly how equipment is going to be used once it hits the field.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #110 on: 11 March 2019, 13:15:11 »
Yeah, the A, C or D work better with the DHS load.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #111 on: 11 March 2019, 15:56:53 »
Sure I would take it, especially in a post Jihad/Dark Age environment. The dual SRM-6s allow for a multitude of specialized ammo ranging from tandem charge to Follow the Leader guided ammo, the LB-5s have a decent scattershot effect on things not equipped with Ferro Lamellor, and you can shift to regular slug to hit and engage at long range. The Prime is designed to be a machine that wears down its foes using pinpricks and scatter damage, using its speed  to engage and disengage as needed.  It's a unit requiring patience. If you want the insta-kill/high fire power version, use the A or the one with the ER Mediums and the AC-20.

It's also a design that does well as an anti combined arms unit. 

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #112 on: 11 March 2019, 16:13:58 »
Follow-The-Leader warheads are exclusive to LRMs and are IS only.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #113 on: 12 March 2019, 01:49:05 »
It's been a bit since I looked at Tactical and Strategic Operations for munitions rules. However, the point still stands the SRM-6s offer a nice adjunct to the LB-5 rounds with a variety of ammunition types, and the Gargoyle Prime is useful in a number of roles in any era.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #114 on: 12 March 2019, 11:17:59 »
There was never an argument that the Man O War Prime wasn't useful.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #115 on: 13 March 2019, 04:17:35 »
Re infernos, I assume that during the opening stages of REVIVAL the Clans wouldn't use them at all.  Unless they were going bandit hunting.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #116 on: 13 March 2019, 04:36:54 »
Where do we get any sort of character POV saying infernoes are dishonorable?  they they have a cultural stigma like they do in the IS?
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