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Author Topic: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?  (Read 5479 times)

Sir Chaos

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #30 on: 11 September 2018, 16:36:10 »
And neither have twin LB-5X in any canon configuration . . . if you DO take them in range to use the SRMs, then their thin skin is going to get poked at pretty hard . . . additionally, as I mentioned, most of their weapons are in the torso which means they are masked carrying Elementals in close.

Finally, the primary user of the Gargoyle- the Wolves- were facing those RCTs and did not have very many Hellbringers or Mad Dogs compared to their neighbors during the invasion.  The Gargoyle is still going to be fast enough to have a edge on the masses of 3/5 and 4/6 armor the Wolves were likely to face and left Ice Ferrets and Adders to hunt down light & medium recon/strike mech lances.

Plus after wrecking the armor formations, a short stay in the mech bay gets that Prime switched around to a A, C or D to go break the mech forces.  Or vice versa.

abou, look at the details of each world's invasion.  For example, WCSB has a Wolf supernova or so hitting a 12th Star Guard merc regiment and a armored brigade as the defending force on Icar.

The Wolves also have quite a lot of Adders, don´t they?

The Adder B has only one LB-X/5 instead of two, but it also has a large pulse laser, which has the advantage of accuracy - always important when fighting fast hovercraft or VTOL at long range - AND it is a far better hole-puncher than anything the Gargoyle Prime carries. Not to mention the Adder B also has two ER medium lasers to punch holes, and a flamer for anti-infantry work and whatever arson a battle plan might call for.

So I would rate the Adder B as somewhat more than half as effective at anti-vehicle duty, and almost as effective at anti-VTOL duty, while still being able to outfight any IS mech of the time that it cannot outrun - hell, I´d give to close to even odds against the Gargoyle Prime itself, or better if it can stay out of SRM range.

And all that comes at less than half the weight of the Gargoyle Prime, 10% less BV, and a bit over one-fourth the cost of production.
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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #31 on: 11 September 2018, 16:42:25 »
That was my assessment of the adder b as well.

Ultimately the Gargoyle prime fails my devil’s advocate test for mech assessment - people rarely praise something unless it’s being called junk.

Hellraiser

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #32 on: 12 September 2018, 02:25:09 »
Adder-B is a solid design, but, would you take it against a pair or Platoon of Medium tanks?

Because under the old BMR rules, the Gargoyle-Prime might pull that off, but, I'm not so sure the Adder-B would.

A few well placed LRM & PPC hits & its going be hurting.

And at only 10% less BV its going to have to hold its own against nearly the same level of opponents in a BV balanced game.

1537 BV Garg-Prime  (2/3 = 2797)
1422 BV Adder-B  (2/3 = 2588)

993 BV Manticore
605 BV Bulldog  (LRM 748)
475 BV Vedette


In a BV balanced game the Clan Vet Adder-B is taking on a Manticore, Bulldog-LRM, & 2 Vedettes for similar BV.

The same Clan Vet in Gargoyle-Prime upgrades 1 of the Vedettes to a Bulldog (Standard).


I'm not feeling confident that the Adder survives that w/o a LOT of run & hid & snipe involved.

Then again, I'm not sure the Gargoyle would either but it has the advantage of twice the clusters at 24 hexes meaning it might cripple something earlier & thin out the track pack.

Its also got the armor to take multiple PPC shots  & keep moving, the Adder, not so much.


Meanwhile if you change the role to "Pursue Light Mechs" then I'm going to say the Adder with its LPL & extra MP will fill that role better than the Prime does.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #33 on: 12 September 2018, 10:43:38 »
Adder-B is a solid design, but, would you take it against a pair or Platoon of Medium tanks?

Because under the old BMR rules, the Gargoyle-Prime might pull that off, but, I'm not so sure the Adder-B would.

A few well placed LRM & PPC hits & its going be hurting.

And at only 10% less BV its going to have to hold its own against nearly the same level of opponents in a BV balanced game.

1537 BV Garg-Prime  (2/3 = 2797)
1422 BV Adder-B  (2/3 = 2588)

993 BV Manticore
605 BV Bulldog  (LRM 748)
475 BV Vedette


In a BV balanced game the Clan Vet Adder-B is taking on a Manticore, Bulldog-LRM, & 2 Vedettes for similar BV.

The same Clan Vet in Gargoyle-Prime upgrades 1 of the Vedettes to a Bulldog (Standard).


I'm not feeling confident that the Adder survives that w/o a LOT of run & hid & snipe involved.

Then again, I'm not sure the Gargoyle would either but it has the advantage of twice the clusters at 24 hexes meaning it might cripple something earlier & thin out the track pack.

Its also got the armor to take multiple PPC shots  & keep moving, the Adder, not so much.


Meanwhile if you change the role to "Pursue Light Mechs" then I'm going to say the Adder with its LPL & extra MP will fill that role better than the Prime does.

The only thing the Gargoyle Prime is going to do is fire its LB-X/5s at long range and hope for motive crits. It isn´t going to do enough raw damage to take its enemies out. The Adder B, on the other hand, is also going to land almost as many large pulse laser hits as it would have scored cluster hits with a second LB-X/5 - and those hits HURT. It can also close in beyond medium laser and SRM range and adds its own ER mediums to the equation, for twice the hurt even from beyond medium range for the Manticore´s PPC.

Also, the Adder is faster than the Vedette, unlike the Gargoyle, and has a larger speed advantage over the others. It will have an easier time controlling engagement range (it can back up as quickly as its heavy opponents can advance), and an easier time getting +3 TMM when moving forward and +2 TMM when backing up.

For the match-ups you propose, I say the Adder B will have a better chance against its opponents than the Gargoyle Prime. Although, if the terrain is broken enough that the battle takes place mostly at SRM range, I grant you that the Gargoyle Prime will have an advantage over the Adder B.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #34 on: 12 September 2018, 11:39:33 »
Hits to the armor?  Heck, the Adder will not be able to survive those hits when its armor gets thin.  Unlike the Gargoyle it will not be able to survive in close, and since it does not have SRMs to load infernos into then its going to have more trouble . . . the tactics are totally different- the Adder is going to have to play distance and use that LPL just as much as the LBX.  The Gargoyle?  Its going to be charging forward carrying its Elementals near the armor formation- drop the Elementals and then go for inferno SRM spam.  One other thing not mentioned, the Garg Prime was so cool running you never minded if your opponent set fire to woods and fields trying to get some separation- stand in the fire and its just fine.

Mean while, if my star runs into a medium mech company back up by a lance or three of Vedettes or Scorpions- well that Adder is going to be chasing down a light/medium to give it the LPL & ERML while throwing shotgun blasts at tanks.

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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #35 on: 12 September 2018, 14:16:04 »
lots of math and hypotheticals to bypass the fact that when building a force, 99.9% of players wouldn't field a gargoyle prime unless they had to. they'd take the A and something else would go after the vehicles.

in all the what mechs do you like threads here and facebook i can't ever remember seeing it mentioned. and i would remember because it would be like someone picking a different surfer band than the beach boys. that kind of disrespect sticks with you

massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #36 on: 12 September 2018, 15:02:56 »
lots of math and hypotheticals to bypass the fact that when building a force, 99.9% of players wouldn't field a gargoyle prime unless they had to. they'd take the A and something else would go after the vehicles.

in all the what mechs do you like threads here and facebook i can't ever remember seeing it mentioned. and i would remember because it would be like someone picking a different surfer band than the beach boys. that kind of disrespect sticks with you

Hey, no disrespecting Jan and Dean.

The Gargoyle Prime is one of those mechs that makes sense in-universe, but doesn't have much use in the game as played.  I've long been of the opinion that the battlefield in the 31st century doesn't really match what we play on the mapsheet.  It's kind of like the Locust 1M (the one with two LRM-5s and only 1 ton of armor).  In the right situations, it is a devastating weapon.  But nobody actually wants to play that kind of fight.  It's boring and it takes forever.

Last night I played a game of Megamek, taking a Gargoyle Prime against 2 lances of heavy tanks on a 2x2 map.  I faced off against 4 Pattons and 4 Bulldogs, decent if not exceptional heavy Inner Sphere tanks.  By the time I ran out of ammo for the LB-5s (all cluster ammo), one of the tanks was destroyed, 5 were immobilized, and one had been reduced to 2/3 movement.  I didn't have a lot of room to maneuver on the board, and couldn't simply back away (no rolling maps), but other than taking an AC-10 to the head, I was okay.  My armor was still in decent shape on the rest of the mech.

At that point I got bored, then ran in and started kicking the tanks and shooting them with SRMs.  I quickly took a lot of damage, but I was just screwing around at that point.  In an actual battle, you wouldn't do that.  And that's really where the utility of this mech exists -- it's something you'd find very useful in an actual war, but it is boring as crap to play it in a game.

Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #37 on: 12 September 2018, 15:12:19 »
yup and that's the disconnect between the universe built and the actual game. i'm just not that interested in things i'll never see on the table. when approaching the original question, i considered situations i'd be likely to see in a game (or have seen). if the answer is "you know, it's great in some situations, but ones you'll probably rarely actually encounter playing the game" then i can't endorse it as a good unit.

massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #38 on: 12 September 2018, 16:09:30 »
yup and that's the disconnect between the universe built and the actual game. i'm just not that interested in things i'll never see on the table. when approaching the original question, i considered situations i'd be likely to see in a game (or have seen). if the answer is "you know, it's great in some situations, but ones you'll probably rarely actually encounter playing the game" then i can't endorse it as a good unit.

Yeah, and I'm far more likely to encounter it in a thought exercise or a discussion forum than to actually play with it in a game.  But since I only get to play Battletech on Megamek anymore (and only against the bot), spotting that it is really useful in certain situations works just fine for me.

Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #39 on: 12 September 2018, 17:58:48 »
Actually it would get used quite a bit . . . on BV balanced servers.  I LOVED getting the Garg Prime b/c it was so cheap compared to other Clan heavies or meds.  Considering the server had infernos, at one point started fires, and encouraged combined arms the Garg Prime was a great value to run with my Timberwolf Es, a med and Adder D- especially if I had a Nova.  Sure my nova might be facing a IS heavy company (usually Lyrans), but I could keep range up mostly as I hit tanks, drop the BA at a convenient point as I kept that range open and it could run through or sit in any hex on fire (heavy smoke + woods) to get some good shots in before having to move back at a run.

If I am a Wolf Star Captain or Commander during the invasion, I would definitely send the Garg Prime forward to pin any supporting armor in place with BA support and turn my mechs to face whatever axis the mechs are coming from.

Going back to Icar, if I can degrade the armor formations so I do not have to fight them and can instead hammer the mechs where they gather then I can have a maneuver victory.  If I can degrade the armor and the mechs will not move out of the range of the armor's support- then I can bypass them to take the objective.

The Gargoyle Prime may not be sexy with ERPPCs, Gauss Rifles or a Ultra 20 for mech killing damage but it gets the job done.  It does the job and it gets paid.
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Sartris

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #40 on: 12 September 2018, 20:47:01 »
Yeah, as i noted in my first post, the bv is the main selling point (or more bluntly imo the one redeeming quality). Ultimately i’d rather take the A or D and pick something else at that bv slot


Hellraiser

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #41 on: 13 September 2018, 02:09:59 »
Last night I played a game of Megamek, taking a Gargoyle Prime against 2 lances of heavy tanks on a 2x2 map.  I faced off against 4 Pattons and 4 Bulldogs, decent if not exceptional heavy Inner Sphere tanks.  By the time I ran out of ammo for the LB-5s (all cluster ammo), one of the tanks was destroyed, 5 were immobilized, and one had been reduced to 2/3 movement.  I didn't have a lot of room to maneuver on the board, and couldn't simply back away (no rolling maps), but other than taking an AC-10 to the head, I was okay.  My armor was still in decent shape on the rest of the mech.

That is a boatload more BV than the Gargoyle is so I'd say you did amazing really.

Under Forced Withdrawal conditions you wouldn't even have taken the damage you took since only the most fanatical of crews will stay in an immobilized vehicle & keep shooting instead of powering down.  That -4 to hit means they DIE very fast when they declare they are still shooting & not bailing.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #42 on: 13 September 2018, 02:12:48 »
Yeah, as i noted in my first post, the bv is the main selling point (or more bluntly imo the one redeeming quality). Ultimately i’d rather take the A or D and pick something else at that bv slot

In a Mech v Mech battle, sure, but as Colt pointed out, if you know ahead of time the enemy is fielding loads of conventionals then the Prime is amazingly effective & cheap as heck for what it can do.
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massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #43 on: 13 September 2018, 11:32:29 »
That is a boatload more BV than the Gargoyle is so I'd say you did amazing really.

Under Forced Withdrawal conditions you wouldn't even have taken the damage you took since only the most fanatical of crews will stay in an immobilized vehicle & keep shooting instead of powering down.  That -4 to hit means they DIE very fast when they declare they are still shooting & not bailing.

I misspoke a bit.  I think two of the tanks were immobilized, and three of them had just been reduced to zero MP.  So they couldn't move, but they weren't getting the -4.  Still, with more maps you'd just move away and leave them there.

I was surprised at how fast those motive hits added up.  I generally play Megamek as "lazy man's Battletech".  I don't think about a move for more than a few seconds, and I normally just shoot at whatever gives me the lowest target number.  But the range on those LB-5s is amazing.  I'd be at medium range (and getting a -1 for cluster) while they were at long.  And I could run and make one turn and still come out ahead in the movement penalty I take vs the penalty I give them.

Overall it was pretty nice.  Not the most fun game to play, but I came away thinking that this mech was definitely something the Clans would want in their forces.  As long as they're facing vehicles regularly.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #44 on: 13 September 2018, 12:40:37 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

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Elmoth

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #45 on: 13 September 2018, 12:44:27 »
Probably not very honorable, but vehicles are annoying, so someone has to deal with them. And clans are not big in wasting resources, so having a capable mech take care of the problem so that the rest of the star can center in the real stuff sounds OK to me. Maybe the pilot is probably one of those old warriors that are not fit for front line duty anymore, but that want to go down fighting. or a dishonored mechwarrior trying to claw its way to the top with a support mech?

Sir Chaos

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #46 on: 13 September 2018, 13:01:28 »
In a Mech v Mech battle, sure, but as Colt pointed out, if you know ahead of time the enemy is fielding loads of conventionals then the Prime is amazingly effective & cheap as heck for what it can do.

Cheap in BV, yes. But in-universe, battles are not balanced by BV.

If you have limited resources to fill out your touman, what would you acquire to keep enemy vehicles off your ´Mechs? Assault ´Mechs? Or lights that cost about 30% as much apiece to acquire for more than half the capability *plus* far superior anti-Mech capabilities?

Would you rather attach a star of Gargoyle Primes to a cluster, or a trinary of Adder Bs (plus a star of Elementals that you´ll have the resources left to acquire)?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #47 on: 13 September 2018, 13:29:09 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

The mech was not built to kill vehicles- or ASF which would be seen as more legit among the Clans- the base chassis was a 5/8 mech with more crit space than the Timberwolf.  What we call the Prime was what was supposed to be the most common config seen during the invasion- we have no idea if the A, C or D were perhaps the original config.  Prime could have been a on-the-fly adjustment from Ulric in light of the massed armor, VTOLs, CF and ASF the Wolves faced.

To combine a answer to Sir Chaos & Elmoth . . . during the Invasion the Clans did switch out configurations during the battle, its one of the strengths of Omnis.  No pure stars of Gargoyles existed afaik though some had 3 according to WCSB . . . but if the Wolf star is advancing and expecting to face more armor than mechs at that point, I would want some of my Gargoyles as Primes (which also keeps the Aero off, considering they were often bid away its a important reminder) to make the IS armor combat ineffective.  When my scout (be it aero, mech or DS orbiting) finds the enemy mech concentration I can pull back to let the techs swap out the Gargoyles to more anti-mech loadouts.

Also, direct to Sir Chaos . . . if I found anywhere from a couple companies of armor up to a battalion, mixed weights, and send a star or nova against them . . . I am more likely to get all or most of the Gargoyles back if I sent five Primes.  Not the case with a nova of Adder Bs and the Elementals- the Bs cannot take as much punishment and the Elementals will have to get in close.  Both will wreck that armor contingent but it would be wasteful to throw the more fragile Adders against such a force.

Finally . . . its not Gargoyle Primes- its simply Gargoyles.  Just like Adders they are Omni-mechs and at need can be swapped out for the more liked A, C or D mech killing configurations.
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massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #48 on: 13 September 2018, 13:39:54 »
Well, if we're going to switch to IC arguments, I'll point out how large the anti-vehicle bias is in most Clans, including the Wolves, especially pre-Invasion.  There isn't a lot of honor to be had disabling tanks, so it's especially odd that they'd build an assault mech, even as poor an assault mech as the Man O' War, for the role.

I don't think they did.  I don't think the Man O' War was designed for that purpose.  It has 16 DHS inside the engine, after all.  If I had to come up with an in character rationale for it, it would be something like this.

--The Man O' War was designed to fulfill the same kind of role as the MadCat.  Given the complexities of "real" mech design, apparently the people in-universe haven't figured out the common break points that every player knows (i.e., 80 ton mechs are inefficient, but nobody knows that).  It was a very solid design with good speed, good pod space, great heat dissipation, and decent armor.  It forms the core of the Wolf Clan's "fast cavalry" units.

--Then the MadCat is created, and it's just better.  The Man O' War starts becoming a less preferred design, but the Wolves still have a lot of them and so you gotta use 'em.

--The Clans invade the Inner Sphere and find that their main combat forces keep running into tanks and other conventional forces.  Most of the Clans gave these up long ago, but the FedCom especially seems to love them.  So now the Clans need something to get rid of these pesky annoyances that their heavy cavalry forces keep running into.

--Some commander orders his Man O' Wars to carry an anti-vehicle configuration when they're facing FedCom RCTs.  It is very effective and it quickly catches on.  It ends up becoming such a common move that the FedCom identifies this as the "primary" configuration for the mech.  It's the one they see the most.  Once most of the vehicles have been dealt with, mechwarriors switch to the "A" configuration, or one of the others.

That's going to be my head-canon for it, anyway.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #49 on: 13 September 2018, 16:51:18 »
To go into how OP the Prime is against vehicles, I put a 2/3 pilot in one against an entire company of Vedettes (and I still had around half of their BV). By the time the battle ended, only one tank survived (because its crew apparently had an attack of self-preservation).

But the thing is, the Gargoyle Prime isn't to be thought of in terms of "most efficient anti-vehicle design". No, remember that Gargoyles are attached to Heavy or Assault Stars, and the Prime would show up when those Stars are expecting to face off against a lot of vehicles.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #50 on: 13 September 2018, 17:10:28 »
Cheap in BV, yes. But in-universe, battles are not balanced by BV.

If you have limited resources to fill out your touman, what would you acquire to keep enemy vehicles off your ´Mechs? Assault ´Mechs? Or lights that cost about 30% as much apiece to acquire for more than half the capability *plus* far superior anti-Mech capabilities?

Would you rather attach a star of Gargoyle Primes to a cluster, or a trinary of Adder Bs (plus a star of Elementals that you´ll have the resources left to acquire)?

Under that rational I'd rather take a Gargoyle clone w/ 320 Rated SFE & field a Trinary of those for the costs of the Adders

As Colt said, its not Gargoyle-Primes, its Gargoyle-Omnimechs, and I can turn them into any configuration I want & the Prime has its uses.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #51 on: 14 September 2018, 10:56:35 »
Under that rational I'd rather take a Gargoyle clone w/ 320 Rated SFE & field a Trinary of those for the costs of the Adders

As Colt said, its not Gargoyle-Primes, its Gargoyle-Omnimechs, and I can turn them into any configuration I want & the Prime has its uses.

Then I will acquire Gargoyles and Adders for my clusters, and field the Gargoyle A and C to deal with ´Mechs and the Adder B to deal with vehicles. If you have both, and need to decide which to use in which role, that makes more sense than Gargoyle Prime against vehicles and Adder Prime and A against ´Mechs.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #52 on: 14 September 2018, 13:42:56 »
Prime & A?  I use the Adder B & D to hunt down lights and meds.  Its more useful for the Adder B to go after Phoenix Hawks, Spiders, Javelins, Jenners, Assassins and other fast jumpers that would be found in scout forces or trying to flank the main Clan force- punch through their light armor and then ranged crit seeker with the speed to keep up or keep them away.  With the Adder D I have no problem getting into a sniping duel with some IS heavies and most Meds I would have faced in the Invasion- Centurion 9-A, Enforcers, Wolverines, Shadow Hawks, and most 4/6 heavies b/c of the speed w/ERLL.  Typically Adders and Gargoyles in WCSB were not in the same stars IIRC.

Your still overlooking that the Adder is not going to survive against vehicles the same way a Gargoyle will simply due to the difference in armor & structure- plus closing in to light them up with infernos if it gets to that point.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #53 on: 14 September 2018, 14:26:02 »
Yeah, but anyone who gets stuck with anti-vehicle duty in a Clan Star probably isn't a highly regarded warrior in the first place.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #54 on: 14 September 2018, 14:55:22 »
Depends on mentality . . . and I imagine they get promised stuff like "Alright, next time you can get a mech hunting config and get first challenge."
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abou

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #55 on: 14 September 2018, 21:12:01 »
It is unfortunately that the Clans have been so shoehorned into this specific mentality.  Militarily, it makes sense to have a configuration for a 'mech that can change its loadout on the fly to deal with regiments of conventional forces. A couple years ago I started a topic about how Zellbrigen dramatically cahnges warfare and essentially destroys tactical combat.

This situation with the Gargoyle Prime makes me think about those kinds of situations that are best handled in an ongoing RPG campaign. Only there would you participate in lopsided situations as part of a story rather than a balanced PvP game.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #56 on: 14 September 2018, 21:35:30 »
The only other reason I can think of for the Gargoyle Prime is to duel or act as a handicap for the commander deploying it.

"I bid a Star of Timber Wolves and Warhawks to take this objective!"

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #57 on: 16 September 2018, 15:14:30 »
The only other reason I can think of for the Gargoyle Prime is to duel or act as a handicap for the commander deploying it.

"I bid a Star of Timber Wolves and Warhawks to take this objective!"

"Since I'm not as cowardly as the other commander, I bid two Man of War and three Nova to take that plant!"

And as a calculated insult. I'm pretty sure Ulric killed a Khan while piloting a Gargoyle Prime.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #58 on: 17 September 2018, 15:14:02 »
And as a calculated insult. I'm pretty sure Ulric killed a Khan while piloting a Gargoyle Prime.

Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #59 on: 17 September 2018, 16:38:58 »
Talks about it in the book, but I am pretty sure it was the A against Christu though the D is attributed to him for the Invasion IIRC.

Now the Wolves Refusal of the Invasion had them pitted against the Bears and both Khans died leading their clusters (4) against the single Wolf cluster- with a very narrow win.  He might have been in the fight or it could have just been the Star Colonel leading her cluster.

But I do not think he ever was known to pilot a Gargoyle Prime.
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