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Author Topic: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?  (Read 3641 times)

Sharkapult

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #60 on: 17 September 2018, 19:53:37 »
Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.

My memory might be stretching the details. I do seem remember it as almost an offhand comment that Ulric used a Prime in a trial and handily defeated his opponent. The trial itself wasn't part of the narrative, it was two other characters discussing it just after Ulric's victory. Hmm. Probably in the BoK trilogy.

Hellraiser

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #61 on: 18 September 2018, 03:43:35 »
Did Ulric ever kill a Khan?

Pretty sure he *was killed* while piloting a Gargoyle, not idea about the configuration though.

Talks about it in the book, but I am pretty sure it was the A against Christu though the D is attributed to him for the Invasion IIRC.

Now the Wolves Refusal of the Invasion had them pitted against the Bears and both Khans died leading their clusters (4) against the single Wolf cluster- with a very narrow win.  He might have been in the fight or it could have just been the Star Colonel leading her cluster.

But I do not think he ever was known to pilot a Gargoyle Prime.


While the Novels might have alternate info,  the Wolf Phone Book & The Wotan Scenario of Falcon/Wolves both show Ulric piloting a Prime.

He was "THAT" could.

Like Gray Noton using a Rifleman-3N,  he was just THAT good.
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Empyrus

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #62 on: 18 September 2018, 13:19:56 »
In the Gargoyle MOTW, someone suggests the Prime is far better with Solaris rules, where weapons have different reload times as Solaris rounds are 2.5 seconds long or something like that as opposed to 10 second rounds of standard BT. Obviously, the rules are no longer support, nor likely canon. But if we assume that standard rules are abstractions and that weapons might have different rates of fire realistically, the Prime may be better than it seems on paper, even against 'Mechs.

Doesn't make the Prime any better on standard BT though...

abou

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #63 on: 18 September 2018, 23:01:51 »
The autocannons are relatively fast-firing weapons in Solaris rules. They use a delay system where weapons need so many turns to reload or cool down before firing again. The larger laser weapons need two or three turns before they can be fired, but the AC/2 can fire every round and the AC/5 and AC/10 only need one round to reload (essentially allowing them to fire every other round). SRMs only need one round to reload, but LRMs need two rounds.

But then again, even if that provides an advantage, that doesn't mean much for Total Warfare. But on the other hand, using something like the Solaris rules would be interesting considering Clan zellbrigen.

massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #64 on: 19 September 2018, 17:37:55 »
The autocannons are relatively fast-firing weapons in Solaris rules. They use a delay system where weapons need so many turns to reload or cool down before firing again. The larger laser weapons need two or three turns before they can be fired, but the AC/2 can fire every round and the AC/5 and AC/10 only need one round to reload (essentially allowing them to fire every other round). SRMs only need one round to reload, but LRMs need two rounds.

But then again, even if that provides an advantage, that doesn't mean much for Total Warfare. But on the other hand, using something like the Solaris rules would be interesting considering Clan zellbrigen.

That's also a good reason for it to be over-sinked.

SD501st

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #65 on: 20 September 2018, 08:44:57 »
That's also a good reason for it to be over-sinked.

Indeed...

If using the Solaris rules where a standard CBT turn is broken up into 4 "sub" turns, assuming it fires everything as often as possible a Gargoyle Prime will put out 4 heat for the LBX5's(1 heat x2 cannons x2 sub rounds of firing) and a whopping 32 heat for the SRM6's(4 heat x 2 launchers x4 sub turns of firing)! The missile launchers alone will use up the fixed heat sinks, and the heat from the autocannons will put it at exactly +4 heat... exactly at the point where it gets no penalities for built up heat. Well, as long as it stands still, because that's without movement heat.

However as far as I remember, and according to the MotW Article on the Gargoyle, the 2 and 5 class AC's could BOTH fire every sub turn, meaning the twin LBX AC/5's of the Gargoyle could produce up to 8 heat.

In any case, so many damage clusters flying your way in a single CBT round would perfectly explain why the Prime is a good duelling loadout. You are in a 5/8 Assault Mech with good armor protection, so you will survive closing the range, if you choose to... which you don't even need, thanks to the LBX AC/5 range magic. Aim high and you are going to turn the enemy pilot into a vegetable slushy, simply from the number of head hits that will accumulate over time. And of course, so many hits also massively increase the chance for a TAC...
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 08:46:44 by SD501st »

Greatclub

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #66 on: 21 September 2018, 07:44:39 »
two other scenarios

Buy a force in BPV. change to chaos campaign rules. Play a couple games using it as a fat battle-taxi, then switch to a real config. It's gaming the system, but if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Second, after your star-mate the ristar get shot out of his mech, challenge his opponent. He's likely to have armor full of holes, and look, you've go all these crit-seekers...


Firesprocket

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #67 on: 21 September 2018, 19:26:37 »
Indeed...

If using the Solaris rules where a standard CBT turn is broken up into 4 "sub" turns, assuming it fires everything as often as possible a Gargoyle Prime will put out 4 heat for the LBX5's(1 heat x2 cannons x2 sub rounds of firing) and a whopping 32 heat for the SRM6's(4 heat x 2 launchers x4 sub turns of firing)! The missile launchers alone will use up the fixed heat sinks, and the heat from the autocannons will put it at exactly +4 heat... exactly at the point where it gets no penalities for built up heat. Well, as long as it stands still, because that's without movement heat.

While you are correct I will just add to this: heat in the Solaris Dueling system works somewhat differently when you get to heat scale.  I attached a copy of the sheet here for viewing.  I can't find my copy of Reaches at this time to recall what the delay time is on a Clan SRM-6, but assuming you fire observing the weapon delays and not over riding them then you will stay cool enough to not incur any adverse effects.  At least until the point you start taking engine hits.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #68 on: 23 September 2018, 09:04:42 »
While you are correct I will just add to this: heat in the Solaris Dueling system works somewhat differently when you get to heat scale.  I attached a copy of the sheet here for viewing.  I can't find my copy of Reaches at this time to recall what the delay time is on a Clan SRM-6, but assuming you fire observing the weapon delays and not over riding them then you will stay cool enough to not incur any adverse effects.  At least until the point you start taking engine hits.

What I get from a quick gleam at this(thanks for providing it btw!) is that all heat is basically multiplied by 4, with the exception of movement which keeps the same heat for walking and running but works a little different otherwise in regards to jumping. But that evens out because you can move 4 times per regular BT turn. Oh and a third ground movement mode, huh... can one fire weapons while sprinting? If not, this reminds me a bit of how the Battletech PC game handles movement. Interesting. ???

How does TSM figure into this? Is it activated at 9x4=34 heat and thus gets the normal -1 movement(canceled out by TSM) and +1 to hit? Or is the activation threshold different? If it's option 1, then it's interesting that it activates in between the heat values for the +1 to hit and -2 movement modifiers. Gives it a little more granularity and actually makes it easier to manage.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2018, 09:11:24 by SD501st »

Firesprocket

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #69 on: 23 September 2018, 18:14:22 »
I'd have to dig the book back up to take a look at it.  I don't honestly remember how TSM was managed.  There were very few, if any, TSM equipped mechs at the time of its publish.  Fairly certain sprinting did not allow for fire and was close to, if not identical, to what is in Tac Ops today.  Map scale is also different as well as the original maps were between 7.5 to 10 meters.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #70 on: 23 September 2018, 18:26:25 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.

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Firesprocket

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #71 on: 23 September 2018, 18:56:52 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.
I wouldn't call the Solaris rules obscure.  Dated is a more appropriate description.  In that element/rule set though the Prime is a decent mech.  While I'm certain that wasn't what the OP had in mind, its still valid for discussion if anyone want to have it.  In any event, I just wanted to give a clarifying nugget, I've done that, I'll just go back to lurking.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #72 on: 23 September 2018, 22:26:28 »
I wouldn't call the Solaris rules obscure.

The rules showed up in one product that was printed over 25 years ago.  Most Battletech players have never seen the rules.  That makes them pretty obscure.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #73 on: 23 September 2018, 23:14:06 »
The rules showed up in one product that was printed over 25 years ago.  Most Battletech players have never seen the rules.  That makes them pretty obscure.
I'm trying not to go off on a complete tangent, however there is quite a bit of the BTU that could be defined as obscure by that narrative. If we were to take it to its extreme the whole of the BTU at this point could be considered obscure to significant amount of gaming market.

Solaris reference outside of periodic fluff here and there was last mentioned in the 2014 XTRO RF.  Sure its a joke product, but it states right on the inside cover where you can find the rule set.  Failing that, anyone that had particular interest, can in fact, go back and look at Sarna for more information of the historical product.  The quality and quantity of what is there may not be to one's liking, but it points you in the correct direction to find out items and it took me 2-3 minutes, so I'd say that's hardly obscure for a BT player.

The point here is my opinion and yours are entirely subjective.  The statement that 'most Battletech players have never seen the rules' has no way to be verified by you or I (or largely anyone else) with accuracy.  I agree to disagree with your opinion and lets leave it at that for folks that might want to discuss items further.

massey

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #74 on: 24 September 2018, 11:24:00 »
I'm pretty sure that invoking obscure rules like the original Solaris Box Set rules is a concession that the Man O' War Prime is not good.

The Man O' War Prime is not good in standard Battletech, mech vs mech combat, which is what most people play.  Nobody disputes that.  That basic consensus is the entire reason for this thread, after all.  What we are discussing in this thread are the situations where the mech might be much better than people otherwise believe.

What we have found is:
--The mech is an outstanding vehicle killer, particularly in the BMR set, but even in Total Warfare.
--The mech is great under the Solaris "dueling" rules.

I try to look at Battlemechs with the question "why would anybody use this thing?"  I want them to make sense in-universe.  And they don't have to be good in standard tabletop Battletech to do that.  The Locust with two LRM-5s is crappy in a normal gaming scenario, but it would be brilliant in the right circumstances.  I don't think anyone wants to play out the "rolling mapsheets, enemy stays out of range and whittles you down until either you die or he runs out of ammo and leaves" game.

The 3025 Raven with all the primitive ECM equipment might be a great asset in Battleforce or some other campaign system, but it sucks in the normal game.  Same thing with the HQ variant of the Cyclops.  But these mechs were considered very valuable for a reason.

Sir Chaos

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #75 on: 24 September 2018, 11:44:29 »
The Man O' War Prime is not good in standard Battletech, mech vs mech combat, which is what most people play.  Nobody disputes that.  That basic consensus is the entire reason for this thread, after all.  What we are discussing in this thread are the situations where the mech might be much better than people otherwise believe.

What we have found is:
--The mech is an outstanding vehicle killer, particularly in the BMR set, but even in Total Warfare.
--The mech is great under the Solaris "dueling" rules.

I try to look at Battlemechs with the question "why would anybody use this thing?"  I want them to make sense in-universe.  And they don't have to be good in standard tabletop Battletech to do that.  The Locust with two LRM-5s is crappy in a normal gaming scenario, but it would be brilliant in the right circumstances.  I don't think anyone wants to play out the "rolling mapsheets, enemy stays out of range and whittles you down until either you die or he runs out of ammo and leaves" game.

The 3025 Raven with all the primitive ECM equipment might be a great asset in Battleforce or some other campaign system, but it sucks in the normal game.  Same thing with the HQ variant of the Cyclops.  But these mechs were considered very valuable for a reason.

So I guess the question is: Are the circumstances and tasks that the Gargoyle Prime is good at prevalent enough in-universe to justify the Gargoyle Prime being a widespread configuration in-universe?

Given that those circumstances are (1) one-on-one duels and (2) dealing with conventional vehicles and VTOL, I would say... yes.

Presumably the Gargoyle Prime was, pre-Revival, a common configuration for one-on-one trials, perhaps even "serial one-on-one" trials like the Trial of Position in which cadets graduate. It was probably less common during the initial battles of Revival, but when it became clear just how many vehicles the Clans were going to face on the path to Terra, it was dusted off and put to use against those vehicles.

I still say using the Adder B is a more economical way to deal with conventional vehicles, but the Gargoyle Prime is good at the job - just not as good, per resource expended to build them, as the Adder B.
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Empyrus

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #76 on: 24 September 2018, 12:47:43 »
I'm thinking the Prime is a dedicated Battle Armor carrier. All armament in the arms, no hands so arms aren't particularly active and unlikely to brush off BA accidentally (implicitly an occasional issue in the fluff, per Fire Moth fluff), long-range weapons to provide covering fire for BA.
Since BA and vehicles don't as a general rule follow zell like 'Mechs do (nor do 'Mechs follow it against non-'Mech targets), the Gargoyle Prime can carry BA and then cover them while they destroy enemy vehicles and BA. Plus, if we take various TacOps rules and assume they represent greater realism, LB-X ACs are sorta good vs Battle Armor because all hits have chance of instantly incapacitating a trooper.
Naturally this still leaves the Prime weak in standard BT games, but i do think it has a role in-universe, and reasonably common at that.


The Gargoyle's brother, the Timber Wolf (both descend from the Woodsman) isn't as suited for BA carrying due to it nearly always mounting heavy weapons in torsos, plus in general its shape may be less suitable for BA carrying even though this isn't modeled in the rules.

Further, assuming the most difficult tech for the Clan to produce is Endo-steel, the Gargoyle may be more practical for the Clan Wolf to produce than the Timber Wolf, despite its greater mass and higher rated engine. Indeed, didn't the Gargoyle become relatively widespread whereas the Wolves defend the Timber Wolf is exclusively manufactured by the Wolves? (The Gargoyle is a decoy and a consolidation prize.)

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #77 on: 24 September 2018, 13:27:56 »
I believe you've got the relative distribution of those two mechs backwards.  The Mad Cat is common throughout the Clans, while the Man O' War remained rare outside the Wolves.

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Empyrus

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #78 on: 24 September 2018, 13:54:12 »
Except that wouldn't make sense as the Wolves are in sole control of the Mad Cat production and among other Clans they're isorla, salvage, or trade, whereas the Gargoyle has no such limitation noted anywhere. And the Gargoyle is produced on Tokasha Mechworks per Sarna as well, so at least the Ghost Bears are producing it.

TRO3050U notes that the Gargoyle is found among Invaders mostly, though Ice Hellions also use it. The same TRO indicates the Mad Cat is found in modest numbers among other Clans at best. As such i'd really assume the Gargoyle is more common of the two.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #79 on: 24 September 2018, 15:07:21 »
The fact is that other Clans actually want Mad Cats, the mech is prestigious.  The Man O' War?  Not so much.

And while the Wolves might control the production facility, other Clans can easily trial for production runs, just like what the Wolves did against the Jaguars with the Daishi.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #80 on: 10 October 2018, 14:00:21 »
If you play with BV (or even if you don't)...

You're in a duel situation. Your opponent goes for a tried and true Timber Wolf Prime. You decided on a Gargoyle Prime. A standard Clan pilot boosts the Timber Wolf Prime up to 3777 BV. To even things out, you can bring the Gargoyle Prime up to 3674 BV with a 1/1 pilot.

If you play with aiming rules, you can see where I'm going with this. Try it out - the Gargoyle Prime has enough speed and armor to close with some smart play, at which point the Timber Wolf will be in some serious danger. Add quirks to the equation, and the Stabilized Weapons of the Gargoyle make it even deadlier.

So if your a seasoned Clan elite, and you want to murder and/or capture your opponent by knocking them out - the Gargoyle Prime can be an interesting, if unorthodox choice.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #81 on: 10 October 2018, 14:05:12 »
You do realize the contradiction in claiming that a mech is good because it's inferior to another mech, right?  Seriously, a 1/1 pilot with aiming rules should kick ass in almost any mech.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #82 on: 10 October 2018, 14:13:47 »
You do realize the contradiction in claiming that a mech is good because it's inferior to another mech, right?  Seriously, a 1/1 pilot with aiming rules should kick ass in almost any mech.

I'm claiming that due to the way BV works, you can get a good enough pilot in it in order to use the aiming rules reliably - something you can't really do with most units. It's useful if you want a 'Mech you can reliably use kill your opponent.

If BV isn't a concern, then sure, go for something more expensive that'll probably bring you more mileage. But even then, the Gargoyle Prime is certainly useful - as long as you have that good pilot in it.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #83 on: 10 October 2018, 14:37:45 »
I am trying part of my bid for Liam's Ghost last bid request . . . star of Gargoyle D, 2 Garg Prime, Karhu and HAG Mad Dog with mixed BA points (Rogue Bear types & 1 Salamander) against a veteran Vedette company, 2 regular Scorpion companies, and a green Scorpion company (what it took to be BV balanced).  The Clan forces have been hurting the armor but not quite finishing it off . . . there is a 2/3 Vedette, turret locked Scorpion, immobile Scorpion and various levels of damage with only a handful destroyed.  The bot is gathering them together (Ved & green to N, reg Scorp to NW & NE) for a zerg rush and I am almost to the point the Gargs are going to have to start back pedaling to keep the majority of the armor at mid range.  The Karhu has been using the jump and Plasma Cannon to burn any tank that tries to flank.

I think it might be interesting to see a 3080s Prime 2.0 . . . still a LB-5X in one arm, pair of Plasma Cannons on the other arm (uses integral DHS), and maybe a pair of ATM3 for the range instead of the SRMs.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #84 on: 10 October 2018, 14:53:41 »
Also, are people loading up one of the tons of SRM ammo as Infernos? It seems like it'd be undeniably useful against the sort of combined arms units that people are advocating using the Gargoyles against.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #85 on: 10 October 2018, 15:26:05 »
I forgot as I was setting it up, so concerned with checking stuff off for the tanks lol.

I think it would be standard doctrine for the Garg Prime to have the 2nd ton be Inferno . . . fire is not something it fears.  It should court fighting in the midst of a forest fire.

Revise my earlier one . . . iATM3s!  Inferno missiles!
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #86 on: 10 October 2018, 16:07:14 »
That's just evil.

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #87 on: 10 October 2018, 16:38:29 »
Definitely want to test it in HMP, IMO it would be the spiritual successor to the Prime.
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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #88 on: 11 October 2018, 05:59:50 »
Most Clan Prime configurations are sub optimal . 3050 Clan designs frequenly had 1 ton LB X ammo and later years had 1 ton of ATM ammo . Dark Age Inner Sphere Designs with 1 or 2 Clan Spec weapons was strike a balance between weight and efficacy . The Super Heavy mechs with all Clan Spec weapons just was included for shock and awe not efficacy . I like taking successful designs from previous ERAs and replacing a Clan Ballistic weapon such as a Gauss Rifle and IS ER Large Laser for a light PPC and with the weight savings switch IS XL engine for light engines CASE for CASE II , Gaurdian for Angel , Beagle for Bloodhound ect.  What you get is about the same performance for about 2-3 million C bills less .

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Re: Weird question: is the Gargoyle Prime actually good?
« Reply #89 on: 12 October 2018, 01:43:44 »
IIRC, Infernos are supposed to be rare & only the most debased of units would use them.

But players being players, I don't know of anyone that would make the 2nd ton inferno ammo.
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