Doctor Who: Where did I leave the Tardis?

[Ruger]

I'd bet it's only a one-off just for this story.

cheers,

Gabe

No doubt for the casing but then there's also the creature itself...

Ruger

[Wrangler]

So, thoughts on the New Year's Special...I thought the new model Dalek was rather interesting myself...

Ruger

Now finally haven seen it, i can say one thing. Too powerful.  If Daleks were a capable of regenerating from being cut in three pieces, being able travel by itself try claim world, no qualms tackling entire force it alone.  Why would Supreme Dalek be able hold candle to this kind of Dalek? It was far more independent and capable of being leader than ones we've seen in the past.

It was good episode end the series with, i do hope writing will improve.  I did think this season was enjoyable but it was...almost generic in way it told it's stories. 

[gyedid]

Now finally haven seen it, i can say one thing. Too powerful.  If Daleks were a capable of regenerating from being cut in three pieces, being able travel by itself try claim world, no qualms tackling entire force it alone.  Why would Supreme Dalek be able hold candle to this kind of Dalek? It was far more independent and capable of being leader than ones we've seen in the past.

It was good episode end the series with, i do hope writing will improve.  I did think this season was enjoyable but it was...almost generic in way it told it's stories.

I believe I know where Chris Chibnall got the inspiration for this type of Dalek:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek_variants#Dalek_variants_in_comics,_books,_audio_dramas_and_video_games

Look what it says about the Scout Daleks from Ben Aaronovitch's novelization of "Remembrance of the Daleks".  Does anyone here have that book?

However, I would also have to concur that Chibnall went too far with the enhanced abilities.  I don't think Terry Nation ever left any kind of "bible" specifically listing what the Dalek mutants  were and weren't capable of outside their shells, so each new writer has felt free to expand their capabilities however they see fit.

cheers,

Gabe

[Ruger]

Look what it says about the Scout Daleks from Ben Aaronovitch's novelization of "Remembrance of the Daleks".  Does anyone here have that book?

Yes, and I also love it for introducing the Special Weapons Dalek and its thoughts...

Ruger

[Ruger]

Ok, so I just got the 11th series blue ray set today...just started watching the season again, but have one major complaint...

WHY ISN'T "TWICE UPON A TIME" IN THIS SET?

Great, now after 10 seasons of waiting to get the Christmas specials with the complete season sets, I find that the last Capaldi one is not a part of either the 10th or 11th season sets?!?!?!?!?!? Guess I'll have to order it because the only places I'm likely to find it around here to buy outright in store will either be as an overpriced (or used, and likely overpriced at that) purchase at FYE, or as an overpriced purchase at Barnes and Noble...

Ruger

[ClarkeMarek]

I don't have any of the DVD's, so I'm not sure.  Sad to hear that. :(

[Wrangler]

Looks like was released separately on February 20th, 2018.  What a rip.

I wonder what genius decided to do that?  I guess DVD sales aren't what they used to be.

[Orin J.]

I think the ones inclined to want to discuss such matters have departed the forum, and the rest of us aren't keen on discussing possibly sensitive subjects.

as one of those people: i'd just rather not rock the boat, honestly. politics has become polarized to the point that a once mundane comment can provoke large swathes of otherwise calm people into inarticulate fury without any real objective or reason. no point in bringing that here when i've already got plenty of places where i'm cheeks-deep in that sort of fight.....

that said, i've been too exhausted to enjoy dr. who of late anyways.

[YingJanshi]

Huh.. Russell T. Davies is helming a new DW spin-off show...

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/new-doctor-who-spin-off-meta-crisis-announced-90647.htm

[Jaim Magnus]

Huh.. Russell T. Davies is helming a new DW spin-off show...

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/new-doctor-who-spin-off-meta-crisis-announced-90647.htm

Uhhh, be aware, today is April 1st. Just sayin'.

[Wrangler]

I'd wager it is fools joke.  :D

[gyedid]

So, here we are...already halfway through the new season...and there has been nothing?  No discussion at all?!?!?

I though surely people would at least want to comment on...



The Master is back (with yet another new actor)!  And he's a man again!  And he's killing people through tissue compression again!
**And** he somehow managed to do what the Daleks failed at--DESTROY GALLIFREY! (while the Doctor wasn't looking)
All because of this Timeless Child business and a foundational lie of Time Lord society that he uncovered.

Remember the planet Ravalox from the Sixth Doctor's era, and what it turned out to be?  Well, it's made another appearance, in a manner of speaking.

The Judoon are back!  Captain Jack is back!  And most crucially we have...yet another hidden Doctor...who is also a woman...and she doesn't know that Gallifrey has been destroyed.

It looks like Chris Chibnall is now trying to out-Moffat Moffat and is swinging for the fences with this series.  Fewer preachy social issues, more action, and more use of the show's lore.  I don't know if this change in tone was part of his plan, or if there was something else that happened during the year-long hiatus.  But there certainly seems to be a concerted effort to return to what made the show successful under the previous showrunners.



cheers,

Gabe

[Wrangler]

I'm really not liking Chris Chibnall and his approach to the franchise.

[Ruger]

It seems that one of three things are happening:

1) they are playing out the Cartmel Masterplan

Or

2) they are updating the Valeyard

Or

3) they are playing out the CIA theory.

Ruger

[Jaim Magnus]

It seems that one of three things are happening:

1) they are playing out the Cartmel Masterplan

Or

2) they are updating the Valeyard

Or

3) they are playing out the CIA theory.

Ruger

My guess is option 3. It makes the most sense with the little bit of context we've been given thus far.

[Ruger]

My guess is option 3. It makes the most sense with the little bit of context we've been given thus far.

I would say the same except for the Timeless Child angle, which would seem to indicate the first option more than the rest.

Ruger

[gyedid]

I would say the same except for the Timeless Child angle, which would seem to indicate the first option more than the rest.

Ruger

Perhaps Chibnall is trying to do both?


The biggest questions surrounding this new hidden Doctor are:
--obviously, where she/they fit in in the sequence of regenerations.  If she really is the "Season 6b" Doctor, that would place her between #2 and #3.  The way she took down the Judoon and the somewhat uppity way she dressed suggest a precursor to #3, though the rather loud colours of her shirt and high-handed attitude recall #6 (before Colin Baker toned him down for the audios).  And handing off what was essentially a live grenade to a villain is something we've seen #4 do.

--Why doesn't #13 remember being this particular incarnation, and why didn't Clara see her in the Doctor's timeline? (Yes, I know what the simple answer is)

--If she actually is a part of the Doctor's past, does that mean that #10.2 actually did NOT count as a regeneration?

I would actually prefer if this were something more interesting--rather than what's essentially a female War Doctor, have her be an alternate reality Doctor.  Maybe from some kind of Mirror Universe where all of the Doctor's incarnations, save the most recent one, have been women. This hidden Doctor could then be that universe's version of #3, neatly explaining why #13 doesn't remember being that incarnation, because they never actually have been.

 I think it could work; a running theme so far has been multiple realities--I think the Doctor's initial guess of "multiple Earths" in _Spyfall_ was the correct one, and her comment about the Orphan 55 outcome for Earth being just one of many possibilities point in that general direction.



Also:


In _Spyfall pt. 2_, when the Doctor meets the Master atop the Eiffel Tower in 1943, she comments that the conditions are "worse than Jodrell Bank."  The Master then quips, "Did I ever apologize for that?"  Is he perhaps referring to the climax of _Logopolis_ here?


cheers,

Gabe

[Talen5000]

Perhaps Chibnall is trying to do both?


The biggest questions surrounding this new hidden Doctor are:
--obviously, where she/they fit in in the sequence of regenerations.  If she really is the "Season 6b" Doctor, that would place her between #2 and #3.  The way she took down the Judoon and the somewhat uppity way she dressed suggest a precursor to #3, though the rather loud colours of her shirt and high-handed attitude recall #6 (before Colin Baker toned him down for the audios).  And handing off what was essentially a live grenade to a villain is something we've seen #4 do.

--Why doesn't #13 remember being this particular incarnation, and why didn't Clara see her in the Doctor's timeline? (Yes, I know what the simple answer is)

--If she actually is a part of the Doctor's past, does that mean that #10.2 actually did NOT count as a regeneration?

I would actually prefer if this were something more interesting--rather than what's essentially a female War Doctor, have her be an alternate reality Doctor.  Maybe from some kind of Mirror Universe where all of the Doctor's incarnations, save the most recent one, have been women. This hidden Doctor could then be that universe's version of #3, neatly explaining why #13 doesn't remember being that incarnation, because they never actually have been.

 I think it could work; a running theme so far has been multiple realities--I think the Doctor's initial guess of "multiple Earths" in _Spyfall_ was the correct one, and her comment about the Orphan 55 outcome for Earth being just one of many possibilities point in that general direction.



Also:


In _Spyfall pt. 2_, when the Doctor meets the Master atop the Eiffel Tower in 1943, she comments that the conditions are "worse than Jodrell Bank."  The Master then quips, "Did I ever apologize for that?"  Is he perhaps referring to the climax of _Logopolis_ here?


cheers,

Gabe

So far, there is one and only one theory that fits all the information we know.

Ruth is from a previous Regeneration cycle. One that predates Hartnell

One needs to be wary because none of the theories provided are impossible given Dr Whos lack of priority on adhering to its own canon, and the possibility of deliberate misdirection is always present...but that explanation is the only one in which all the info we have is valid

[monbvol]

Not quite the only possibility as the Time Lords have been demonstrated as being able to have additional regenerations even before the current run so it could be anywhere in the Doctor's timeline.

Pre-Hartnel still makes the most sense though given what has been seen so far.

[Ruger]

So far, there is one and only one theory that fits all the information we know.

Ruth is from a previous Regeneration cycle. One that predates Hartnell

One needs to be wary because none of the theories provided are impossible given Dr Whos lack of priority on adhering to its own canon, and the possibility of deliberate misdirection is always present...but that explanation is the only one in which all the info we have is valid

Hence, the Cartmel Masterplan.

Oh and Gabe, on your last bit in your post, yes, he is.

Ruger

[Talen5000]

Not quite the only possibility as the Time Lords have been demonstrated as being able to have additional regenerations even before the current run so it could be anywhere in the Doctor's timeline.

Pre-Hartnel still makes the most sense though given what has been seen so far.

As I said, given the issue that Dr Who plays fast and loose with it's own canon, and the possibility of deliberate misdirection, no theory can be ruled out.

But you add together all the facts...for example, Ruth doesn't recognise the sonic places her pre-Troughton. But we saw Hartnell regen into Troughton.
We also know that all of the regens of Hartnells cycle are accounted for. So where did Ruth come in?

Narratively, the Time Lords have been known to provide entire regen cycles. If they could provided just single regens - why not give only one more to the Master as some form of incentive? Or to the Doctor? Why give one to hide up Ruth?

Adding a single regen to cover up Ruth adds a much greater degree of complexity that isn't needed, nor desireable. Doesn't mean Chibnall won't write it that way, but IMO it does lower the likelihood of a Series 6b Doctor being Ruth.

No - the only theory so far which covers all the info we know is that Ruth is preHartnell. There is even some canon evidence for it...the Brains of Morbius, hints dropped by McCoy.

Ruth calls the Tardis a ship...as Hartnell did.
Doesn't recognise the Sonic.
Ruths Tardis looks like Hartnells.
Chibnall has ruled out alternate universes

Is this the Cartmel Master Plan? Maybe. But some of the other info we have argues against it. The Other reportedly threw himself into the Looms...but if Looms existed, there would be no 2.whatever billion children for the Doctor to kill. Nor would the Doctor be the Other and therefore, Ruth wouldn't be the Doctor. I suspect there might be hints of the Cartmel Master Plan involved, perhaps more than hints, but I think I'd prefer that piece of lore to stay with the novels. And narratively, much of Cartmels Plan is too complex and involved to be resolved in just a few episodes and much of the foundation it was built upon has been forgotten.

Much of course will depend on the Timeless Child arc which may add more info, and it may be the case that this mystery will be the mystery underpinning Season 13.

[monbvol]

Somehow my mind flipped a word there.

There are only three possibilities for where Ruth can fit in reasonably as far as I see it.

1. Ruth is pre-Hartnel as you suggest and I do think this is most likely and does seem to work the best.

2. The new batch of regenerations could have been granted to the War Doctor and Ruth could have been between him and Chris.  The sonic issue does work against this but since we don't see this regeneration all the way through it does give an opening.

3. The next regeneration we can put her in is right after Capaldi.  I can't remember if we saw it completely on screen or not but pretty sure we saw at least part of it thus making this the least likely and one I'd probably not even consider if not for my shoddy memory or the possibility of the show runners to write it off as a misdirection of us seeing things as the Doctor remembers them or some other lame/poorly thought out reason.

[Talen5000]

2. The new batch of regenerations could have been granted to the War Doctor and Ruth could have been between him and Chris.  The sonic issue does work against this but since we don't see this regeneration all the way through it does give an opening.

We see enough of #9s face to count. Hurt regens into Ecclestone. There isn't much room for doubt.

3. The next regeneration we can put her in is right after Capaldi.  I can't remember if we saw it completely on screen or not but pretty sure we saw at least part of it thus making this the least likely and one I'd probably not even consider if not for my shoddy memory or the possibility of the show runners to write it off as a misdirection of us seeing things as the Doctor remembers them or some other lame/poorly thought out reason.

Again, we see Cipaldi regen into Whittaker.

The only regen we haven't seen all the way through is Troughton to Pertwee - which is the infamous Series 6B theory - but as Pertwee shows up wearing Troughtons outfit, and as Ruth doesn't recognise the sonic, and as all regens are "officially" accounted for, this doesn't seem to be the answer.

PreHartnell is so far the only theory that doesn't require extensive justification of what we know. It simply requires the TimeLords to have done what they have done before - grant the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations in such a manner that he regenned as a child, and lost his memory. Even then that isn't the only way it could have happened.

[Cannonshop]

I think we're just going to have to wait and see if:

1) this is even following a deliberate plan by someone familiar with Whoniversal lore and not something dumped out by a hack who's only followed the series since the first reboot.

2) just how complex they're going to make it because the idea of (1) is...simply unacceptable for a flagship series with the kind of depth and broad fanbase Doctor Who has.  (going on triple or even quadruple generations of fans).  I'm kinda thinking we have to hope they didn't make the plan too complicated to carry off without serious jumping of the shark. 

the probability is that BBC may have dug a hole they're going to have a heck of a time digging out of, but heck of a time doesn't mean can't dig out of it and stick the landing-it just means they're going to have to maybe hope Chibnall can stick the landing-which did not occur on the first season of the current Doctor (but then, first seasons are often pretty rough on Doctors, esp. with new showrunners.  More the rule than the exception.)

[Lorcan Nagle]

Chibnall is an old-school Who fan to the point of having appeared on BBC in the 80s as a spokesperson for a Doctor Who fan club.

All that said, I can all-but guarantee that the explanation for where the Ruth Doctor comes from will have nothing to do with any deep cut of Classic Who fan discussion and what could have beens.

[Cannonshop]

Chibnall is an old-school Who fan to the point of having appeared on BBC in the 80s as a spokesperson for a Doctor Who fan club.

All that said, I can all-but guarantee that the explanation for where the Ruth Doctor comes from will have nothing to do with any deep cut of Classic Who fan discussion and what could have beens.

If he's doing his job right, it WILL be totally out of left-field, but it will also have enough linkages that SOMEONE in the fandom will feel like a prophet for getting it 'almost right'.

[Wrangler]

I've only seen first two episodes of the season, frankly, i'm not liking it much. 

I'm tired of the Doctor being one of two survivors of his/her race thing.  Chibnall direction with franchise hasn't been getting me going and feeling excited with changes.

Old school fan doctor or not, I'm not crazy for Chibnall at the moment. I will have to see where they drive the franchise storyline net.

[ClarkeMarek]

So far, there is one and only one theory that fits all the information we know.

Ruth is from a previous Regeneration cycle. One that predates Hartnell

One needs to be wary because none of the theories provided are impossible given Dr Whos lack of priority on adhering to its own canon, and the possibility of deliberate misdirection is always present...but that explanation is the only one in which all the info we have is valid

It's actually interesting, because in one of the groups I belong to, somebody pointed out that technically we don't see 2 transition to 3.  We see him falling into a black hole, and that's it.  And when the BBC updated their regeneration video, we don't see the traditional "Troughton falls, and then we see Pertwee stumble out of the TARDIS" scene.  I'm almost banking that this incarnation was wedged between 2 and 3. EDIT:  And actually, I think she knows of the sonic, she just doesn't use it, much like how 5 stopped using it, and it was unused until 7/8.

[Talen5000]

It's actually interesting, because in one of the groups I belong to, somebody pointed out that technically we don't see 2 transition to 3.  We see him falling into a black hole, and that's it.  And when the BBC updated their regeneration video, we don't see the traditional "Troughton falls, and then we see Pertwee stumble out of the TARDIS" scene.  I'm almost banking that this incarnation was wedged between 2 and 3. EDIT:  And actually, I think she knows of the sonic, she just doesn't use it, much like how 5 stopped using it, and it was unused until 7/8.

While far from impossible,  it should be pointed out Ruth isn't using Troughtons outfit, which we see Pertwee wearing and all the regens have been accounted for.

Add in that Ruth apparently doesn't recognise the sonic and this Series 6b theory becomes less likely, if only because it requires fewer hoops to jump through.  It would mean Ruth...or whoever regenerated into Pertwee after changing back into Troughtons outfit, it would mean the Doctor being granted a single  extra regen which is an ability not previously demonstrated, and it requires a reason why the Time Lords went to so much trouble. Not to mention Ruth didn't show up with Clara.

Yes...it is far from impossible and the show could easily go that direction but the preHartnell theory fits all the info we have without any additional twists. What's missing with that theory is WHY?

[Lorcan Nagle]

If he's doing his job right, it WILL be totally out of left-field, but it will also have enough linkages that SOMEONE in the fandom will feel like a prophet for getting it 'almost right'.

Well, more pareidolia than linkages.  But yeah, enough fan theories will do the rounds that a bunch of people will be able to yell I KNEW IT.